SiouxRanger

The direct answer is Yes-overrule the bankruptcy court's order (in whole or in part). To go to the Dept. of Justice's website on the issue a district court's scope of review of a bankruptcy court order, go to: https://www.justice.gov/jm/civil-resource-manual-97-standard-review-mootness-etc For background and an overview: The American legal system of trials and appeals is generally structured along the following lines: TRIAL COURT The first level is the trial court. This is where evidence is presented to the court, testimony and documents. The judge at this level, determines which testimony and documents are "admitted into evidence. The "finder of fact," either the Judge if a bench trial, or the jury if a jury trial, is (supposed to be) limited to the testimony and documents admitted into evidence, and nothing else. The judge makes rulings on all matters of law, principally, which laws apply, and interprets them if necessary. Legal counsel for the parties can object to which evidence is admitted, to which laws are ruled as applicable to the case, and the trial judge's interpretation of those laws. At the end of the presentation of evidence and rulings on the applicability and meaning of the law, the finder of fact considers the evidence presented and determines from among all the conflicting evidence, what is true or more likely true than that which is not true or less likely true. To those facts, the law is applied and a ruling made "on the merits." Typically, evidence, testimony and documents, is only presented at the trial level. The trial court is the big show. In most cases, the initial trial is THE PLACE to offer evidence and battle out legal issues. APPEALS COURTS If a party believes that an error was made at the trial level, either on the admission of testimony or documents into evidence, the law which was applied to the facts, or an interpretation of the law, or any other matter, that party has the basis of an appeal. The principal rules applying to appeals are: 1. The party appealing typically MUST have objected to the alleged error during the trial (so as to give the trial court the opportunity to consider and correct the trial court's ruling). If there is no objection, the objection is waived and will not be considered on appeal. The point is that the system is designed to keep narrowing the scope of the next level of court. 2. The error must be "reversible error," that is, so significant that the ultimate ruling in the case would be reversed on account of the error. Minor errors won't change the outcome. 3. No new evidence is presented to the appeals court. If the evidence is not already in the trial court record, it will not be considered. The role of the appeals court is different depending on the type of error alleged. With respect to findings of fact, the typical rule is that the appeals court will give the finder of fact great deference on the basis that the finder of fact heard the testimony, saw the witnesses and is in a better position to judge whether the witness was telling the truth, lying, confused, certain, hesitant, or convincing, and to weigh and compare those considerations among the witnesses. The appeals court will not have the benefit of observing the witnesses. Accordingly, the standard of review applied by the appeals court to findings of fact is an "abuse of discretion." This is a difficult standard to meet, that is, it must be shown that something egregious was done, such as, ignoring overwhelming evidence on one side in favor of scant or no evidence on the other, or the trial court stating certain findings of fact when no evidence was admitted to establish those findings, or ignoring the expert witness for one side when the other side produced no expert testimony in rebuttal. With respect to matters of law, the appeals court typically reviews those issues de novo, that is, starting at ground zero and giving the trial court little deference. The reason is that the appeals court judges can read and interpret the law as well as anyone and rulings on legal issues are not dependent on the demeanor of witnesses, but on text in books. The non-role of appeals courts in taking evidence (conducting evidentiary hearings) is apparent from the frequent appeals court rulings which remand a case back to the trial court to take further evidence, grant a new trial, or directing the trial court to reconsider its ruling(s) in light of the appeals court's ruling(s) on the law. Appeals to a secondary level of appeals court, such as a supreme court, are somewhat more restrictive yet, in that only certain matters may be appealed to a supreme court "as a matter of right," that is, the supreme court must hear the appeal. Supreme courts typically do not have to hear all appeals that are filed and can simply refuse to hear an appeal. Supreme courts typically preside over several appeals courts which themselves preside over the trial courts in different geographic areas. If those appeals courts have made conflicting rulings on an important legal issue, the supreme court may consider an appeal that would result in a supreme court ruling that would resolve that conflict state-wide, or nationally. There are many exceptions and wrinkles to these rules, depending on the state if a state case, or if it is a federal case. The Dept. of Justice's website on the scope of the district court's review of a bankruptcy court's rulings can be found at (same link as above): https://www.justice.gov/jm/civil-resource-manual-97-standard-review-mootness-etc

They are "service centers," so I am told.

This weekend last, a cub from my pack presented the Council's popcorn wares. I purchased a 6 ounce bag of kettle corn for $25.00 USD. My first CAR (Granted, a Rambler American) was $400. (But it did get me through college-the kettle corn barely made a snack).

For what anecdotal value it is worth (zero), our Pack has 3 Lions, 4 Tigers, 1 Wolf, 1 Bear, 0 Webelos 4 and 4 Webelos 5. When I was the Pack committee chair person, we had about 65 registered and 45 attended each Pack meeting. Pack registration is now lower than pre-covid. This is the only Pack that feeds our Troop, so maybe 4 crossovers into a Troop of 16 registered and 12 to 14 active. We usually get half to 2/3rds to cross over, and half of those stay one year. We have seen worse, but we have seen much better. And so it goes.

My understanding is that Executive Board Meetings and Executive Committee Meetings are generally limited to Board and Committee Members. In my Council, Executive Board Meetings are generally dinner events. 25+ years ago, Executive Board Meetings in my Council were held monthly, THEN meetings were reduced to quarterly by a change in the Council By-Laws which appeared to be generated by National. My Council's Executive Board was about 50 to 60. Why changed, I do not know, BUT, the control of the Council shifted to the Executive Committee, a group of about 6 or 8 who met monthly. The ONLY limitation on the power and authority of the Executive Committee was that it could not take any action contrary to an Executive Board action. Of course, the Executive Committee could take any action not already prohibited by the Executive Board, but how is the Executive Board to know what limitations to place on Executive Committee action? One has to predict what actions the Executive Committee MIGHT take in the future. It is fairly easy to anticipate adverse future actions in Chess, football, etc., as those games have lots of rules, but how does one anticipate an Executive Board voting to sell a camp, buy a camp, fire the Ranger or Council Executive, sell the Scout Office or buy another...the list is infinite. I have seen this play out. Presumably, the Executive Board could act to countermand an Executive Committee action after the fact, but the politics of doing that are huge. "Hello, you know that the Executive Committee did "X," you know they were selected for that committee because THEY ARE MUCH MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE ABOUT SCOUTING THAN YOU, (just who do you think you are to question the Imperial Select? Just make your corporate contribution and shut up) so do you want to risk your job to raise a stink to set this right?" ("And your "contribution I DID. Most Executive Board Members are prominent members of the local community and not inclined to countermand those that even those powerful people see as more versed in the operations of the Council Board of which they consider themselves as ceremonial members, treated to a dinner 4 times a year for their annual contribution, perhaps paid by their employer which is prestige building. I know these to be the dynamics of 25 years ago-and I invite those with more current information to chime-in. It does not appear to me that anything has changed in my Council-but maybe elsewhere. (Moderators-the extra space Delators-you know who you are.. are for EMPHASIS.) The only council meeting I know of that MIGHT allow non-members is the Annual Council Meeting which the COR's (Chartered Organization Representatives) are allowed to attend and vote. I have seen non-anyone, mere scouters attend those meetings. That could vary widely from Council to Council. But few of anyone not a member at some level show up.

Well, get the "math" of a "no. 10 can" (quantity), and a "no. 101 can" into your youth head. Maybe a no. 101 can is larger in volume than a no. 10. can-101 is larger than 10. Still not sure I have it right. (101 Is greater than 1, yet the 101 can is smaller...) Well, I have made many failures, but I learned from them, and it made me a better person. Scouting let me fail, yet learn from my failures, in Scouting one can fail without horrific consequences. Just with some measure of youthful embarrassment. Failure is a bit of a "comeuppance" giving notice to those who are paying attention, that one need to take serious attention. Learning by experience, the Scouting method, is something of an iterative process. Advance a few steps, get kicked back a few, resolve to move forward, and a gain a few steps, etc.

I have long believed that Scouting was in the "entertainment" business. Firebuilding (probably no. 1), knives, campfires, swimming, canoeing, camping (and the sheltered independence of being away from home), having fun learning new skills... "You can earn rank, patches...advance, build self-esteem...by earning rank..." And along with the entertainment, us adults have presented it all in the framework structured to foster a sense of leadership, character building, responsibility. These things are not learned by a scout as "THIS is a leadership learning moment-Ah Ha." They are learned, by some scouts (who are paying attention), individually, "We need to eat at 6 pm to make the campfire by 8, and so, considering clean-up time, the fire needs to be started at 5:30. Where is everybody? I need to get them on-board." Some scouts get it and other not quite just yet, or never. Us adult leaders may never see that process work out in the mind of a scout who is responding to the situation in a leadership role, and the Scout will not likely understand it either, yet, the Scout acts in a leadership role and gets the job done. I failed many times as a senior scout, but I never learned from successes. Only failure teaches if one can bear the hurt to learn from it. And one must "bear up" to grow. These things are subtle.

My recollection is that the Scoutmaster's signature represents the SM's acknowledgment that the Scout is mature enough(and has the required rank) to work the selected merit badge.

The TCC, among all the players in this drama, having NO apparent financial interest, should be last on the list for opprobrium.

It is all about profit to National. Merit Badge Pamphlets could be digitized and made available online for a pittance of the hardcopy version. For some reason, National has not figured out how to cut its costs (no longer publishing hardcopy MB books) yet make merit badge pamphlets available online.

Well, to a degree. Which comes first, the chicken or the egg? I lean toward education first, experience second. (Though I can see some advantage in letting Scouts attempt and struggle, THEN get instruction, but that seems inefficient to me.) Having recently counseled a Scout for Chess merit badge, I worked through the Merit Badge Book to make sure I was covering all the topics and issues included in the MBadge requirements, AND explaining them in the terms as the BSA presented them. The Merit Badge Book served as a checklist with explanation-and it was helpful. For me, personally, I generally whup all comers, but being an instructor is another matter. It is not about me, but presenting a topic comprehensively. As an instructor, your responsibility is to cover all the major topics-to place concepts before the Scout with explanation and explaining their significance. Putting them into practice is another matter, and I think it is essential that putting principles into practice is critical. Which merit badges are high on application or low, I do not know.

From my last couple of meetings on a Council Committee, it appears that NCAP Standards are going to be applied to ALL Council and District events. Camporees, OA events, Cub Day Camps, Weekend activities (fishing, shooting, climbing, orienteering weekends) at the local camp. Some of these may already be subject to NCAP Standards. I am a fan of standards but I dropped out of NCAP Assessment Team participation as every camp we assessed, passed. Even when not a single fire extinguisher could be found that was within certification ("We ordered those-should be here in a couple of weeks." "Well, those Scouts just over there-they are here NOW.") Or, all the tractors, including a bulldozer were neatly parked in an Adirondack shelter, pointed at the Health Lodge and Trading Post building-everyone neatly having their keys in their ignition. Seriously? "Well, it's a big hassle to lock up the keys and then have to retrieve them..." "Well, how much of a hassle is it to rebuild the Health Lodge and get the bulldozer out of the lake?" "Ever met a lawyer? They are an unpleasant lot, they are." So, one point of the discussion was that every menu for a Council or District event will have to be approved by a licensed Dietician. Even for weekend events. One committee member commented, "Just how malnourished can you get in 3 or 4 meals?" I am all on-board on health/safety issues: first aid kits, emergency procedures (posted everywhere), fire extinguishers, medical personnel and first response equipment, etc. A seasoned volunteer (old fogey) mentioned the new situation regarding NCAP to me and commented that the new requirements will discourage volunteers from agreeing to manage events. "Those volunteers already have enough on their plate in planning the event." Our Council is discussing creating a whole bureaucracy to administer the application of NCAP standards to Council and District events. The key here is that we need even MORE volunteers to administer the program. Given the demographic financial dynamics, (Old Scouters retiring and dying off, and younger Scouters still working and not making a living wage, or overwhelmed with parenting), willing volunteers and active Scouters, in my Council are fading fast. Just what I have seen, a few comments... This is what seems to be coming.

Having a "home base" also makes a lot of sense. Takes a lot of adults to make it work.

Just to pass on a comment from a SM that caught me by surprise, but intriguing (and I paraphrase to get all the ideas in context): "We did an alternative summer camp by camping at a number of different state parks and private camps/facilities. We'd spend a day or two at each, then driving to the next. The kids planned it all. We brought the adult talent to do program, but the facilities were provided by the parks and private camps. Done this a number of years."

I suspect it has more to do with 3 walnut shells, a pea, and some fancy sleight-of-hand. I agree. There seems to be some huge disconnect between the insurers' contractual obligations and insurance coverage for the COs. It seems that the settling insurers' contributions to the settlement fund severs their contractual obligations to both the LCs and the COs. It sounds like National essentially negotiated the amount of the insurers' contributions (apparently a sweet deal for the the larger insurers) and the amount of the LCs' contributions (who all appear to have gotten on board in a trice), leaving the COs pretty much in the position of "settle on National's terms, or face 100% of the liability for all the claims filed against you-without benefit of any insurance coverage." (A "Hobson's choice.) How it is that the COs would lose their insurance coverage on account of a deal struck by National with the insurers escapes me. Therein lies basis of the COs' argument of a constitutional challenge, namely, that they have been deprived of their property (insurance coverage) without due compensation (some credit against an abuse award entered against it). Were there some formula establishing such a credit that would be accorded a non-settling CO, which has lost its insurance coverage, then arguably the non-settling CO would be getting some measure of compensation for the loss of its insurance coverage. But this scheme would only beg the question in that the Survivor claimant would have to seek some measure of compensation from the settlement trust for that portion of the judgment awarded the Survivor is protected by the credit to the non-settling CO. By way of example, a Survivor sues a non-settling CO and a $10 million judgment is entered against the CO. Of that, assume that the CO receives a $3 million credit, and pays $7 million. The Survivor would seek compensation from the settlement trust for the $3 million credit, and presumably, that compensation would bear some relationship to the insurance coverage lost by the CO, and by necessity, as the insurers have received a huge discount on their liability due to settling, that compensation would be some fraction of the $3 million. The infirmity of this scheme is that National's bankruptcy turns into a partial bankruptcy and a partial non-bankruptcy. And that looks like an unworkable mess to me. And that is the best I can do to make sense of this at this point. Hopefully , someone has greater insight than me.

And we sold off 1/3 of our camp. For over a million dollars. Can we buy a CNC router to do decent signs rather than an old fogey with unsteady hands making suitable but pathetic signs, with a million dollars? (For a million dollars, I could learn to paint like Michelangelo). Or buy new chisels and carving knives for Woodcarving merit badge (which I resharpen, but only years after I was told that they needed to be resharpened-cheap steel-$4 knives and chisels…) Or pay to repair broken firearms? (We still have more functioning firearms than non-operational, but closing in.) Or to connect to the camp power grid to the generator which has stood unconnected for over 5 years? Critically needed several years ago, which was worthless, being unconnected. To supply the fishing and fly fishing merit badge area with supplies. Maybe $1,000? Replace the dining hall. Build a new camp office. On and on, and we'd still have at least $500,000 of the million plus at hand. Yet we have none of these benefits. My council has dumped over a million dollars into the billion dollar hole dug by BSA National's "Professionals." I gotta admit, it takes a lot of people working diligently, to dig a billion dollar hole. Clearly, it can be done, as National BSA has shown. And I am refreshed knowing that my National dues went to support idiots. And your Council? Are you chipping in to fill that hole with your retirement dollars? --Cincinnatus (Not sure the last two posts constitute "outrage" but close.)

I spent yesterday routing signs to establish the new boundary for our scout camp-a camp of 50+ years now butchered by decisions made by…Fortune 50 Executives…NO, Fortune 500 Executives…NO, my barber, my caddie, my Uber driver, my pizza delivery person, my…NO, NO, NO. BSA Professionals. And how many of them are standing up to take credit? And @InquisitiveScouter you are likely to be searching for scouting for a long time.

As I understand the "model," BSA professionals "manage" the volunteers who "present the program" to youth. And therein lies the problem. BSA professionals--THEIR activities, decisions, (all benefitting their salaries and pensions), BANKRUPTED the BSA. (Not to mention the psychological carnage their efforts left in their wake.) And those BSA professionals (as a class), through the bankruptcy process, want to continue to direct us volunteers on presenting the program to youth. And why should we, the volunteers, even let the BSA professionals make this argument? Where is the Volunteer Outrage? Essentially, it is" "We ruined our program, bankrupted it, shamed you volunteers for being associated with a program based on high morals though having none ourselves, highly paid as we are, and expect you volunteers to "Carry On."

I stand by my post. I could well be wrong. But my marker stands firm as I posted.

"When I wanted to understand what is happening today, I try to decide what will happen tomorrow; I look back, a page of history is worth a volume of logic." --Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., U.S. Associate Supreme Court Justice, New York Trust Co. v. Eisner (1921). Many cultures respect, if not revere their elders and the perspective that they have. Their perspective is considered "Wisdom." Barry, I listen to you.

Well, I am with you-never have heard of that before, internal pockets with interior poles. I'd think the doors must be large (wide) so as to accommodate inserting a pole into a corner pocket, then bending the balance of the pole through the door so as to be able to insert the other end of pole into the other pocket. Sounds very awkward. Two doors, or is this feat of contortionism conducted through a single door? Installing the second pole might be easier, until the last few inches of stretch to get the second pole end into the final pocket. I've had tents where the poles were inserted through sleeves on the outside of the tent chamber. Then, tents seemed to go to poles affixed at tent corners, with plastic clips drawing the tent outward. Pole sleeves were probably heavier than the clip system. Some tent poles were capped with a rubber cap and inserted into a pocket. Some tent poles were open ended and there was a metal pin at the corners that was inserted into the open-ended pole. Considering that I started scout camping about 1964 or so, my 14 pound, 2 person Explorer Tent, (not counting the wooden cross spar and two A-Frame pole spars-there was a metal T-pole alternative), has resolved to a Big Agnes Copper Spur Ultra Lite of about 2 pounds 8 ounces (but just one person), things have dramatically changed. My Big Agnes tent is a work of art. (I hope this does not offend some advertising restriction, but if so, just delete what offends.)

To All-- After 25 years of senior Troop leadership, having been the "go to" adult having 3 sons, all Eagles, and having been a senior adult during their Cub Scout years. I have seen my share of O/A elections in the troop. All of them. I am an OA member. Time and again, far, far too many times, I have seen crossover scouts voting on OA membership on older scouts' O/A membership where the older scouts had sports obligations and were only present to meet their Scouting requirement obligations.. The younger scouts may have never met the older scouts. Yet they could vote on the scouts' merits. So, I am in favor of the Scoutmaster of having authority of ADDING scouts to the list of those elected to the OA. And my unit has had many who earned Eagle but not elected to the OA. And each of those Eagles were denied OA because children had control of the vote had no idea whom they were voting for . Many times parents ask me about WHY their child was not elected to the OA. Same dad, 2 sons , one nominated to a US Academy class. "Not so good election rules, '""Eye'd would support.

And thanks to all who have persevered through my last two posts.

The things one remembers with clarity (maybe?) from one's childhood. In the 60's (19xx) when we decorated the family Christmas tree, we had spherical, glass ornaments. Nothing special. But beautiful to me-reds, blues, greens, ... Round balls. All carefully stored away in their boxes of 12, cushioned by cardboard baffles to protect them in the off-season. And then, at tree trimming, an ornament or two was entrusted to me (and my siblings) to hang on the tree, parents dutifully including us youngsters in the annual tradition. Entrusted to us for about 30 seconds or so, until safely on the tree. Even so, despite all reasonable care and parental guidance, an ornament or two would drop to the hardwood floor and shatter. And what I remember most is that the ornaments would shatter into vicious-looking shards, many of them sized about half the circumference of the ornament. Bi-wedge-shaped, with sharp, pointed ends-laying on their backs with the pointed ends upward, just inviting a foot. They looked wicked, and pieces went everywhere. My parents admonished, "Don't move your feet-we have to sweep up the pieces." (And, I, for one, did not want my feet to meet up with the long shards. My main concern, even as a youngster was whether ALL of the pieces were swept up, or that I might find one a month later.) (To this day, I NEVER go barefoot anywhere-maybe this is the reason???) All the pieces were there, just no longer the mesmerizing, sparking ornament of a moment earlier. And all the King's horses, and all the King's men… All the pieces of the ornament were there, just no longer the mesmerizing, sparking ornament of (much, much) earlier. And all the King's horses, and all the King's men… And maybe the shards can be formed into something resembling a prior National, but as a prior poster well pointed out in an excellent post (sorry for the non-atribution), a national organization provides significant benefits to "franchisee organizations." And as the prior poster listed, I am convinced of his her points. And a "collection of shards" the New National would be, and just what effort would it take for the New National Of Shards to extend its primacy over the "Movement USA Scouting" in areas where local councils went bankrupt? And thereby re-establish the National of yore? Well, numerous posters have noted National's stunning silence, (and corresponding local council silence) if not total abdication, of making any comment on the bankruptcy, and worse, offering any guidance to us volunteers, the folks who are supposed to be the folks actually running the program. We are touted as the "heroes of the movement," "guided by the professionals." Well, where are any of them? National, local, what are we to do to "carry on?" It has been two and a half years that volunteers have waited for guidance. A poster on another thread asked, "What is your unit looking forward to in the next year?" (Paraphrasing.) Last I looked, there were no replies. I have pondered flippantly posting, "Getting our units' 2022 Rechartering documents back from Council by 12-21-2023." (Note the year difference.) But that is outside what I consider a proper response under such desperate circumstances. (I have previously posted that my unit started the re-chartering inquiry process in October 2021, in anticipation of this mess. A Catholic Church sponsored units for 75 years or so.) We have found another CO, in May, 2022, and even after all the paperwork was submitted changing to the new CO, several months ago, not a word from the Council. Out Troop was allowed to attend summer camp which had been paid for, though warned "if not rechartered-you cannot attend." Not used to Scout Councils THREATENING Scout Youth. Kind. Friendly. Thrifty. Trustworthy (which embodies most or all of them.) And thanks, @fred8033.