UKScouterInCA

This discussion is really about what Scouting ought to be, and although the religion discussion is on one level a distraction, on another it is very core. Someone who I respect described Scouting as "Where the kids of rich white guys get ahead". It has a reputation, however undeserved, of being an exclusive club for the male children of more affluent, predominantly white, predominantly Christian parents. My father was a Scoutmaster in post WW2 inner city Bristol. This was a city that was pretty much leveled by bombing and poor areas of the city were incredibly deprived. He saw Scouting as the perfect vehicle to give these kids opportunities that were completely inaccessible to them, to be in nature and the outdoors and learn life skills and leadership, respect for others and reverence for the institutions and natural world around him. After he ended his Scouting career he went on to organize camps in the 1970's and 1980's for protestant and catholic youth from Londonderry in Northern Ireland, to give them a chance to escape the ongoing civil war and learn respect for each other. Someone here said that Scouting would benefit from "making it easy" Easy to join, easy to stay. I see that making it easy to complete the damm paperwork as important, as I do removing other barriers to joining, be that religion or access to equipment or whatever. I completely agree with making it easy for anyone to join, and to stay, but putting in the institutional change to actually make that true, then getting the word out. FWIW UK Scouting wrestled with this recently. ""It is part of a concerted drive by the Scouts to widen their appeal, defeat a stereotype that scouting is only for white, middle-class people and rebuild its previously deep connections in cities where it used to promote scouting as a way to learn skills to beat unemployment.". They are almost back to their peak membership of the 1990's.

Organized religion is only at the core of US Scouting (note, not World Scouting) because Scouts BSA has chosen to make it so. The only part of US Scouting where it is explicit is in the Oath. The Scouts BSA Mission Statement is: The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. (NB - One can make ethical choices without partaking in an organized religion) A Scout is Reverent (definition of Reverent is: feeling or showing deep and solemn respect.) Only the Oath makes mention of "To do my duty to God" which is an inherently JudeoChristian way of describing ones religion and in itself exclusionary of other religions. I know ScoutsBSA say that other religions are allowed, but the language choice in the oath is not accommodating. Regardless, oaths can change. For example, UK Scouting now has alternate oaths including one for atheists.

Bear in mind that my youth scouting was in the UK, while my adult leadership is in the US. My observation tends to agree. Much as I love the Eagle program, and the merit badge programs, I see a lot of obsession with rank advancement, getting the merit badges to get advancement, and a scouting career that ends with Eagle. To me, Scouting is about getting confidence in being in the outdoors, in trying new (adventurous) things. The rank advancements happen naturally and provide incentive to participate in the activities to learn the skill. I joined Scouts as a youth as I wanted to camp and hike. As I progressed I happened to learn and continually practice the skills I picked up, tying knots, navigating, cooking. I got repeatedly exposed to more adventurous activities, rock climbing, canoeing, kayaking, mountain climbing, wilderness survival. I see a lot of Scouts now check off their requirement and really never have to do these things again. What sets Scouting apart is the outdoors and adventure. A Nature centre might organize a short hike. But they aren't going to organize a multi day backpack or canoe trip, or rock climbing. There is no equivalent of a youth organization committed to providing such varied, safe, adventurous activities (at such a low cost!). I say this to highlight that I think the program is (can be) excellent if you can get kids into the program. The challenge is the recruitment. A key issue I observe with recent/current Scouting is the tendency to be exclusionary. I have seen and heard many arguments over the years that were essentially "if the kid is _________ they shouldn't be allowed to be in Scouting". You can substitute various terms, be that "female", "gay" or "atheist" depending on the hot argument of the time. Although Scouting as a private organization has certain rights to be exclusionary, it doesn't seem sensible to me with declining membership to be advocating for keeping the pool of entrants smaller. But I think the effect goes further, it gives parents pause of being associated with an organization that does, or recently has, taken a moral stance that doesn't align with their own. This was a concern for me having my son join and I love the program. Society has changed over the years to become more inclusionary and less accepting of discrimination, Scouting carries the reputation of being slow to adapt to remove those prejudices (allowing girls, allowing LGBTQ youth and leadership) or not having adapted at all (allowing atheists). This negative reputation was further worsened by the whole abuse scandal. I think Scouting essentially has a great program. I think it needs to take a hard look at what it wants to be and who it wants its community to be. And then it has a big challenge in marketing out that message to counteract the negative impressions it has. Without addressing those core issues it is just left to the individual Troops to try and make best do with what they have got.

Rather than rain pants consider a rain kilt (or rain skirt depending on what you want to call it). Super quick to put on, no issue with boots. Of course despite being British and very familiar with weeklong horizontal rain I now live in SoCal where it last rained seriously in like 1987, so don’t trust anything I say.

Thanks for the reply. FWIW Clinical trial volunteers are always paid. Not a lot, but that is the law. Part of taking on the risk I guess.

I'm interested in opinions on the requirement. for the new EPA/BSA award. The requirement reads: During the 2021 calendar year, participate in an environmental/ public health community service project as part of an approved Scouting program totaling at least 6 hours. My question is this... If a Scout participates in a vaccine clinical trial and spends at least 6 hours doing so, would/should this count? I'm on the fence. They are absolutely doing good for the community, it absolutely is for public health. Its a little....unusual. And they are also compensated somewhat for their time.

When you get into the High Adventure awards and various other local awards and Scout specific third party awards there are probably hundreds or even more. I spend a decent amount of time searching for what awards are out there and even now I often trip over something I've never heard of before. I agree completely, why would you hide that? Give the Scouts some ideas, they can then choose if they use the ideas or not. But no harm and a lot of benefit to helping provide them.

I guess it comes down to what you see the value of the award to be. Traditionally it is viewed as recognition for an achievement. And I don't want to discount that but to me that hides the true reason. The true reason IMHO is one of incentive, it encourages the person to strive for the award and in doing so it incentivizes them to do things they would not have otherwise done. The recognition gives something to the Scout who went backpacking, or rock climbing, who would likely have done that anyway. The incentive gets the Scout who wouldn't have thought about going backpacking to go out and do it. The recognition portion in my mind actually is a sly way of actually incentivizing others. Ideally, one Scout, in getting the award in a CoH, makes other Scouts notice and thing "I want that too", then they learn about the award and realize they have to do new things in order to earn it. But you have to start somewhere. So, yes, I think it behoves the active parent or Scouter leadership to draw attention to these awards on occasion. You don't have to continually do so, but I think adult leadership should be encouraged to provide ideas for the Scout even as they own if they follow those ideas or not. This is why I like the NOA awards in particular, as I like the camping/climbing/hiking/adventure parts of Scouting. But also why (as per the OP) I think it could be tweaked a little to work better on what behavior it is incentivizing. When the requirements structure disincentivizes things that should be encouraged, it is being counterproductive.

Not really a question, just a gripe on the requirements for the National Medal for Outdoor Achievement, specifically requirements 2 and 3: 2. Earn the National Outdoor Badge for Camping with a silver device. 3. Earn any two additional National Outdoor Badges, each with two gold devices. Seems pretty straightforward, but I dislike the single mindedness on camping. 125 nights is a lot, Achievable I know but is a Scout who is really into Conservation, or into horse riding or something less camping heavy less worthy? I also dislike that it encourages Scouts to focus on a few segments and discourages a broader application. I wish it was written as as the following: 2. Earn a National Outdoor Badge with a silver device 3. Earn two additional National Outdoor Badges, each with two gold devices or even better: 2. Earn a National Outdoor Badge with a silver device 3. Earn two additional National Outdoor Badges, each with two gold devices OR earn all 5 remaining National Outdoor Badges My 2c and I don't ever expect it to change. Just wishful thinking, but I thought I'd share. FWIW I really really like these awards and always encourage Scouts to work on them. They could just be tweaked a little to make them even better.

re 2a: "Cycling merit badge or Ranger Cycling/Mountain Biking elective and 100 miles of cycling" I interpret this as the 100 miles includes miles ridden for the MB. If the Scout follows the mountainbike rather than road cycling they would only have to ride 52 miles so would have to ride an additional 48 miles to meet the requirement. re 3: "Complete 200 miles of riding activities, including cycling, stock riding, skating, motor boating, mountain boarding, snowmobiling, (including ATV or PWC riding at an approved council program), under the auspices of the Boy Scouts of America, including the miles in requirement 2" I interpret this as needing an additional 100 miles on top of the 100 in 2a. So, again if they do the Cycling Merit badge via the mountainbike route, they need a total of 148 in addition to the merit badge minimum. As an aside, much as I love this award, this shows my issue with it. Mountainbike miles are much harder than road miles but count equivalent here, which encourages Scouts to road ride vs mountainbike. Plus mountainbiking isn't about the mileage, a short steep ride can be much more adventurous. But it would be really difficult to "count: rides by anything other than mileage.

@BPPatrolonaRoll The bling is always a good thing if it encourages Scouts to try new things. I have found us always researching if there is some award or partial award the Scouts could earn on a trip. sometimes there are extra requirements so it is good to do the research upfront. My recommendation for you is to check your local High Adventure programs. They often have a series of awards that Scouts can learn for going on local trails, climbing local peaks and so on. These tend to be geared for older Scouts (nominally 14+ but you often get younger Scouts who are more than capable). There are some exceptions though, our local council (SDIC) has a series for whale watching. Two examples that we have gone for. The first is the Camelback medal, they had to do a 3 day, 30 mile backpack in Joshua Tree for this one. The second was a patch for the Mormon Battalion Trail in Anza Borrego desert. This one ended up on the cover of Boy's Life recently. If your boys are young these particular trips might be beyond them for now, but as I said the High Adventure teams often have some easier awards. The Mormon Battalion actually has a Cub Scout variant with a short (5 mile) day hike.