UKScouterInCA

Agree that Scout Skills are best "taught" in the context of doing real Scouting activities on campouts not so much in isolation. Often a little friendly competition helps. Cooking - have a patrol cooking competition. Define one meal as having to be cooked on the open fire (also teaches firecraft) Knots & Lashings - have a patrol competition for the best campsite gadget - maybe a pot holder for the cooking competition above? Or who can build the biggest tower that will support a Scout. Or can fire a tennis ball the furthest? (Assuming BSA hasn't banned catapults and trebuchets) Navigation - have a little orienteering competition.

Appreciate your tongue in cheek comment here. Though, fwiw, the 1918 flu didn't disappear. It became endemic, albeit it mutated to strains that were less virulent. The genetic markers can be seen in pretty much every years seasonable flu, and when combined with avian flu, in bird flu outbreaks such as in 2009.

Be careful of observer bias here. In our area, the part of the community that doesn't want to wear masks or vaccinate are certainly more vocal. The part of the community that don't want to be around those who don't wear masks or vaccinate is at least equally sizable but will just won't turn up and not say anything. I tend to agree that at the Scouting level we should align with governmental national and local guidance, neither adding nor subtracting anything. Certainly at the Troop level. Even with that I received a lovely nastygram from a parent when I passed on requirements from a High Adventure base this summer, which is turn were a reflection of the CDC and State guidelines.

That is a tough one to crack. I think the answer lies somewhere in the high expectations for youth to actually do adventurous, grown up stuff without parental/adult supervision and leadership. I'm not a big sports person but my impression is that there isn't anywhere near so much of that. I'm speaking as a latch-key generation kid, we were pretty free range and if we wanted to do anything we had to organize it ourselves. I vividly remember my youth scout camps where we would always do a night hike - we'd leave camp at around 11pm and hike until dawn, the adults would arrange meeting spots every 3 hours or so during the night but between those times we were on our own, navigating in the dark. For my Chief Scouts Challenge expedition (one of the higher awards in Scouting, as we didn't have Eagle Scout) I took off to the Isle of Wight on a biking trip with a few friends. I did my first big backpack trip solo when I was 15 or so and we never really did any backpacking in our Troop. I'm just back from Philmont and although yes, we do have 2 deep adult "leadership" in the crew, us adults tried really hard to do what we are supposed to do - sit back and let the youth do it all. Where else would a 14 year old kid spend 2 weeks in the wilderness, largely self supported, with a team of youth, pretty much working it all out themselves? Yes, it is kind of backpacking Disneyland and all, but they are still out in the wilderness, navigating, traveling a good distance each day at altitude, working out how to resolve their group conflicts, dealing with being hot, cold, tired, hungry, emotional, irritable. Why do I think this is relevant for youth development and public health in a way that sports are not? I think because Sports teach teamwork, hard work, discipline and core skills - all good things. But Scouts teaches that things that are scary or intimidating, that you don't think you can do, you can. This could be a backpack trip, or whitewater rafting, or rock climbing, but equally well could be a board of review, or interviewing a judge to discuss your constitutional responsibilities. You do them, to paraphrase a certain president, "not because they are easy, but because they are hard.” By doing the hard things, everything else afterwards in life seems more manageable. Now this topic is about public health, though that is fairly broad. The obvious gains - Scouts teaches better eating habits and promotes exercise are obvious. The less obvious gains are where it is most interesting (to me) though - providing better mental (and physical) health, which comes from better societal success, which comes from greater self confidence, which comes from the activities Scouting provides.

Additionally, there are example(s) of existing public health initiatives that have leveraged Scouting. The ScoutStrong Presidential Lifestyle Award promotes physical activity and healthy eating. The American Heart Association seem to have had a collaboration to provide instruction at Cub Scout Camps. The 50 year anniversary EPA award encourages Scouts to volunteer in Public Health related service projects. Girl Scouts have a program on SNAP (Scouting Nutrition & Physical Activity Program) to promote healthier living.

Some other useful literature: Asensio-Ramon J, Álvarez-Hernández JF, Aguilar-Parra JM, et al. The Influence of the Scout Movement as a Free Time Option on Improving Academic Performance, Self-Esteem and Social Skills in Adolescents. Int J Environ Res Public Health. 2020;17(14):5215. Published 2020 Jul 19. doi:10.3390/ijerph17145215 also Dibben C, Playford C, Mitchell R Be(ing) prepared: Guide and Scout participation, childhood social position and mental health at age 50—a prospective birth cohort study J Epidemiol Community Health 2017;71:275-281. and a news report on the same: https://health.usnews.com/health-care/patient-advice/articles/2018-05-04/are-there-mental-health-benefits-to-being-a-scout

Apropos of tax deductions and Scouting: https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2020/02/14/tax-time/

I'm much more positive on your suggestion here. To answer some of the basic questions here: Is there enough here to write a paper for a school/university class? Yes Does/can Scouting have a positive influence on public health? Yes, albeit hard to measure and probably not super significant given the scale of Scouting relative to the population. Could public policy changes enable Scouting to be more effective at improving public health? Yes, though likely a hard sell given 1) it isn't a primary goal of Scouting, but an incidental effect; its hard to measure, the effect is small, and likely there are many more direct ways of spending tax money that would have bigger gains, and 3) a general reluctance in the US population to pay for preventative medicine (even if it is established that it costs society less in the long run).

I'm not sure how useful this is as essentially pure personal and biased opinion, rather than quantitative fact. However.... My father was a Scout in late 1940's/early 1050's Bristol, in the UK. You may not know much about Bristol, but it is, and was, a major port. It also was the location for the Bristol Aircraft factory. As a result, the center of the city was pretty much leveled by German bombing. The city was essentially an urban mess, with a lot of poverty and crime. My father credited Scouting with essentially putting him on the proverbial "straight and narrow" by creating opportunities to get out of the urban decay and into the outdoors, while learning a variety of life skills. His was an inner city Troop that catered to whichever boys would participate. There probably was not a lot of ethnic diversity but it was a long way from the stereotype of the more affluent suburban middle class that seems to be portrayed today. These were boys that had never even seen the countryside. Once he aged out of Scouting he turned around to become a leader and five back to the younger boys as he really believed in those opportunities. Later on, he had moved away from Scouting but I remember when I was a youth that he set up a camp for kids from Londonderry in Northern Ireland as a chance to get kids, both Catholic and protestant, to get outside of the Troubles, camp together, and learn that once the politics were removed that they could all get along. I really hope that there are still Troops that serve communities like this. Baden Powell was a big advocate of Scouting For All, that Scouting should be blind to class. I think that Scouting can make the largest impact in communities where access to the outdoors is harder, from both location and cost. There are significant barriers though, from volunteerism and adult leadership, to costs, and the impact of negative impressions in the community from the ongoing bankruptcy, child abuse issues, acceptance of gay adults and kids, overt religiosity and so on. If Troops can overcome those barriers I am firmly of the belief that Scouting can make a huge impact on all communities.

Wondering if anyone ever got any numbers on how many Scouts (ever, average per year) earn this award? I recently saw some reports on a local-ish Scout who earned the Albert Einstein Supernova award and the article said he was the 13th Scout ever to earn it. Anyway I doubt numbers are anywhere near as low, but it would be fascinating to know a ballpark.

A little off topic but we should start a thread of old scouting memorabilia we have collected, and any stories around them.

For car camping and a desire to keep things cold I would splash out for the Yeti Rambler. Hydro flask work fine too. If clipping into a belt I’d prefer just a smaller plastic bottle and plan to refill regularly but I don’t like the weight pulling down on my pants. For backpacking I like to use a bladder as I like to have ready access and I find getting water bottles out of the side pockets to be awkward enough that I don’t drink regularly. Avoid putting anything other than water (no drink powders) in the bladders. I will sometimes supplement the bladder with 1-2 Smart water bottles. At Philmont this summer I had one for use with drink mixes and one dedicated to only water, and I cut off the plastic ring on the neck so I knew the difference. Nalgenes are a little heavier and I don’t like the super wide opening.

We did not unfortunately, and I don't think our other crew did. The furthest south we got was North Fork Urraca. She must have spent time with another equally awesome and cheerful crew 🙂 I hope your daughter had an amazing summer. It must be so much fun to staff there. Oh how I wish I were 18 again!

Absolutely. We always got 2-3 miles under our feet before breakfast. Pocket snacks were a must for the boys. We only had one hot breakfast, that was more of a brunch. On our penultimate day, we’d come down from Black Mountain camp to North Fork Uraca camp. About 3 miles and almost 50 river crossings. We only had a few miles left to hike and we were leaving a water source so stopped for enough time to filter water and cook.

We are recently(ish) back from our Philmont expedition this year, and I thought I'd write up a few things I learned/realized/observed/thought along the way. For context our Troop is based in Southern California, near sea level but with good access to mountains, altitude and steep climbs. But not a lot of rain. We have a Troop that is a little heavier on the 14-16yo right now, maybe 20-30 active members. We typically go to Philmont every other year, and took 2 crews this year for the first time in recent memory. Off years we normally do a trek in the Sierra Nevada. During the year we do a few weekend backpack trips, plus obviously extras for shakedowns. I personally had never been to Philmont before but have always been a keen outdoorsy person. We had 2 crews on 7-31. One crew did itinerary 12-9 and my crew did 12-17 Obviously, hike your own hike. But maybe some of this would be useful.... 1. Team Chair the whole way. Having something off the floor to sit was was a godsend and worth the minimal extra weight. All the Scouts had chairs too and loved them. You are out for 2 weeks, might as well be happier. 2. Team Trailrunners. They dried so much faster than boots. I was on the fence on taking them as my ankles roll easily, and I was considering that I needed the extra support of a bigger boot. However in the end I took them. I found that I felt I could react faster to unstable ground or a poor foot position with them than with boots when my ankle started to roll. One day we had almost 50 stream crossings and everyones shoes/boot got drenched. Mine were dry in half an hour. I never got blisters. 3. Team Rain Kilt over pants. So much easier to put on/off 4. Tooth of Time at sunrise was the absolute highlight. If you can select an itinerary that ends on the tooth of time, do so. If you finish there, absolutely get up early to make it for sunrise. We were up at 2am, out of camp at 2:45 and to the peak by 4:45. Enjoyed the sunrise and were in basecamp by 9:30am. Enough time to relax, get showers, go to the Villa Philamonte and the Scouting museum, deal with all the paperwork, buy souvenirs. 5. Don't skip the Villa Philamonte (unless you have been before),. Book before you go on trek though. 6. Fake it until you make it. Always make sure you are having a good time, and that everyone knows it, even if inside you think you aren’t. Philmont can have a lot of type 2 fun, but as an advisor make sure you project that it is type 1 fun always 7. Embrace the daft/fun and encourage the Scouts to do the same. Some of the best times are when the joke that really isn’t funny is hilarious after hundreds of repetitions. If someone asks how far it is, reply “It’s in walking distance!”. Shout "You are going the wrong way" on switchbacks. Shout apologies to the forest fairies if you make two piece trash. Don't let the Scouts get away with being half hearted on this stuff, the fact that you are shouting an apology to the forest fairies, so that other crews all hear you, is part of the fun. 8. If you hear other crews apologizing to the forest fairies, shout a response back so they know you heard them 9. Good training and prep was critical. We saw some crews who were not having a good time. If someone really isn’t up for it, you should know that a long time before you go. However always give the youth a chance to show you that they are up for it. I have seen advice to not take 14yo's as they don't have the emotional maturity. BS! However be very cognizant of the abilities of your crew when deciding itineraries. TBH, you are likely to have more issues with the advisors than the Scouts when on trail. 10. Don't overthink it though, at some point backpacking really is just putting one foot in front of another, rinse and repeat. When you "train" you are mostly training the mental stuff. 11. As an advisor you have 2 jobs ONLY. 1) make sure the kids don’t do anything (too) dangerous. 2) wear a smile. ALWAYS. (Keep up morale). After that, let go, let them do it and don’t interfere. Although it is perfectly ok to ask a leading question. "So, what time are you planning on getting going?". 12. But don’t forget job 2. There were a few advisors we met out there who had left their sense of humor in a staff camp somewhere. 13. Take surprises for the kids on trail. (Keep up morale). We took 1) letters from home, 2) a coconut, 3) 2 evening worth of Jiffy Pops, 4) 3 days worth of summit candy. Our other crew advisors took a pinâta. We also made the crew lead take a bag of Jolly Ranchers to give to another crew he though we’re in need or deserving. When he did so we had another bag for them. We also had letters waiting for the kids in basecamp. Bring out the surprises at the end of a harder day or when morale is sagging a little. 14. Ask in staff camps if there is anything they need help with. Its good to help out anyway, but there can be a reward in it too. The kids carried buckets of water and got a bag of chocolate chips in return. 15. Keep a journal 16. Give the kids trail names at the end. We presented the kids with the felt buffalos along with their trail names 17. If possible do a 12 day trek. The 7 day ones just seem too short, your ranger has barely left and you are just getting into the swing of things and you finish. 18. Always take the opportunities to do program. If the program is on a camp you walk through, you can always cook dinner for lunch while you wait. 19. Have the crew leader and the next days navigator present you with the next days plan once you are in camp 20. Make sure the crew leader (and not you) prepares a duty roster. But if the crew develop preferences for chores, they should be encouraged to ignore it as long as each crew member is participating in some way. 21. There is always time to make coffee 22. Don’t forget job 2. Seriously, keep smiling no matter what.

I'm surprised no-one has suggested using an umbrella instead. I've not quite made that leap, but maybe one day soon. https://thedyrt.com/magazine/gear/hiking-umbrella/ https://francistapon.com/Travels/Advice/10-Reasons-to-Go-Hiking-and-Backpacking-with-an-Umbrella

Mine is white. Not sure if it is the same brand but looks pretty similar to this: Lixada Rain Skirt, Ultra Light Thin Rain Skirt, Waterproof Lightweight Kilt, reathable Windproof Raincoat Rainwear Liner, Packable Windbreak Kilt Skirt for Cycling Riding Camping Hiking https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07H9WNM9M/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_2PCWGF541W2X2117G3RS?psc=1

I'm recently back from Philmont and still swear by the rain kilt. Your lower legs get damper, and your shoes. But then I'm combining with trail runners which dry much quicker than boots. For context though, our first 5 days were off and on torrential rain/hail. However, for whatever stroke of fortune, we were. never caught hiking in more than a bit of drizzle. We always managed to be in a camp somewhere when the heaviest stuff was falling. After the 5th day we didn't see any more rain at all.

I've been researching regional High Adventure Bases and found this page: https://tap.scouting.org/council-operated-high-adventure-bases/ The Moab High Adventure Base (formerly called Entrada High Adventure Base) caught my eye. However the links to it are broken and I can;'t find it mentioned on the Utah council website (https://www.utahscouts.org/) I'm guessing that doesn't bode well, but does anyone here know if it still exists? Sounds like it could make for a fun summer excursion. Or does anyone have recommendations for other (Western US) High Adventure bases? I've also been thinking about MOHAB in Montana and the Salmon River High Adventure Base in Idaho. We had Scouts do the Rugged program at Emerald Bay on Catalina Island this summer which they loved. Well recommended.

Does a Troop often have more than one summer camp? Obviously it depends on the Troop and factors like the age range of the Scouts, how many adults participate, how big/active the Troop is and so on. Often, if a Troop has a second camp, it is geared more to older youth, be that a trip to a High Adventure base or just somewhere further away or with more unique activities. We typically have one summer camp per year, but then either a Sierra Trek (self organized backpack trip in the Sierra Nevada) or a Philmont trip (alternating years). This year our summer camp was at Emerald Bay off the coast of Los Angeles. That camp has a great older youth program that is not about getting merit badges. A few of our Scouts spent the week getting their PADI Open Water certification in SCUBA as their weeks activity. This year we also have 2 crews going to Philmont. We used to run 2 summer camps many years ago when the troop was bigger, in addition to a High Adventure trip, but that was still geared to having a more adventurous camp for the older youth who were kind of over getting merit badges and wanted something more fun. Wrt getting into Philmont. There is an application lottery every year, in November, to go 20 ish months out. ie if you applied this fall you would be going in the summer of 2023. They do have last minute opportunities too. I think the success rate for applications is really high, we have never failed to get a trip when we have applied. They also provide all the food so you don't have to worry about providing it (caveat - unless you have dietary restrictions). That is the easy part though, Philmont is a long backpacking trip, we are a 12 day trip which is 10 days on the trail. Going to Philmont involves a decent amount of planning and training beforehand, depending on you and your crews familiarity with backpacking. You also get to lottery for your itinerary, they have a selection from easier (but not easy) to very challenging. The harder your trip the more physically fit you would want everyone to be. Hence the 20 odd months from first application until you go. It is an excellent experience, and if your Troop wants to go they are very likely to get a slot. But you can't just turn up and do it cold. One final comment - if you want to do it but are intimidated, most councils will offer some kind of help in preparation. Contact your councils High Adventure program if they have one. I can't speak about how easy it is to go to the other 3 National High adventure bases, aka Sea Base, Northern Tier and Summit. They all have more varied programs and I think lower attendance but I think again, if your Troop wants to go, they likely can. There are also many other camps or bases around the country that offer High Adventure programs. For example MOHAB is Montana High Adventure base, I think they do backpacking. Salmon River High Adventure Base do backpacking and/or whitewater rafting. You could check out this list: https://tap.scouting.org/council-operated-high-adventure-bases/ or this site: https://www.highadventurescouting.com/council.html

I think I need to post a correction. I said that " local High Adventure programs ... often have a series of awards that Scouts can learn for going on local trails, climbing local peaks and so on". I am starting to realize that that might just be a local thing in the councils around us (Southern California). I have been searching to see if there are equivalent programs elsewhere around the US and so far drawn a blank.

@The Latin Scot I'd initially assumed the same but now I'm starting to think the local awards from SDIC, GLAAC, WLAC, OCC etc are unique. I haven't managed to find any other council outside of Southern California that offers local awards. They often reference the 4 National HA Bases, maybe their local HA camps (although I've yet to find a good list of them all), the 50 miler, National Historic trails etc. But no local awards. FWIW a few of our Scouts recently earned the "WILDERNESS SLOT CANYONEERING" award from OCC. Impressive patch that! And a fantastic adventure trip to earn it too.

Hi, I'm a Scouter with a Troop in San Diego Imperial council. Someone (thank you nameless person) has put together a guide to all the various High Adventure awards offered by councils in Southern California, up to the Southern Sierra Nevada http://highadventureawards.com/, also see all the awards at http://highadventureawards.com/PDFs/BoyScoutHighAdventureAwards.pdf In a spate of boredom/nosiness I started searching the web to see what awards are offered by other councils around the country. However so far I haven't found any. So my question is this: if Is SoCal unique in offering local High Adventure awards? Or do other councils offer their own patches and awards? Note that I am not asking about camps run by local councils that have HA programs, or national awards (Triple Crown, Grand Slam, National trails Award and so on). I'm wondering if local councils have awards for "climb this mountain", "canoe this river", "do this backpack route" etc.?

This could be where everyone gets hung up. The definition of atheism is "lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.", while an agnostic is defined as "a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.". Nothing about enforcing their beliefs on others. I've had people tell me that if a Life Scout, who has been a leader in their Troop, engaged in lots of public service, acted ethically and honorably who finds that they don't believe in any god, should be kicked out of Scouting and not allowed to submit for Eagle. That seems cruel to me, and contrary to other goals of Scouting. I would never advocate for not allowing religion in Scouting. I would advocate that any Scout should be respectful of any other Scouts religious beliefs. whether that is monotheistic, polytheistic on non-theistic or atheistic. US Scouting is well known for not supporting that stance and it reinforces the reputation, along with the recent history of adults being very against allowing girls, and before that of allowing LGBTQ youth and leaders, of being exclusionary.

Did you read that article? The detail in it kind of says "it's complicated, and it has changed over time". FWIW I would never argue that religion should be eliminated from Scouting. Just that those without religion should not be excluded. And the original point was that excluding those without religion degrades the reputation of Scouting in todays society in a way that it didn't in 1908.