ThenNow

Sorry. Were you saying I misinterpreted the context or attitude in this case? What you said is precisely my (intended) point. Let’s do the former thorough processes, in the moment and going forward, and not the later, “done and gone so let’s move on.” I think it can be self-protective human nature to do that with ugly, distasteful stuff especially if doing otherwise avoids putting in jeopardy something we love.

Okay. Whew. I can remove my scalp from close proximity to the Sterno canister. My neck was getting a serious kink.

You made some great points and I appreciate the thought you put into it. Thanks for the info on the layout and composition of the facilities. If, as you think may be the case, these were single rooms, capturing that amount of activity on a single camera still seems suspicious. I think there is more to the story. So, I assume any post mortem assessment to help reduce a repeat performance happens at the camp level? The LC? Who would be doing the review and who will receive the benefit of the “report,” though I’ve heard no one say there are any such documents? Has anyone ever looked at the impact of CSA accusations, maybe even specifically convictions, on Troops, LCs and camps. In the Case of Camp S Bar F Ranch, David Lee Nelson was convicted of XYZ for acts committed in July of 2021. Camp attendance for that year was #__. Following the incident, #__ parents withdrew their registered Cubs from Cub Days. The victims sued the Ranch, Scouters, the LC...and the case settled out of court. Camp registrations for the following year were down by 28%, and etc.

I guess I missed this part. Where did my brain freeze? Better yet, run it by me again. I’ll try to keep my noggin near the Sterno in the meantime.

Yes and I mean that. Now choose one boy whose abuse checks all or most of the boxes for aggravating factors/multipliers. Lay out his story. Take mine, if you’d like. Nearly 7 years’ worth. Again, I agree with the use of the word, but how do we describe my abuse? Robert’s, Life’s, John’s, Eagle1970’s, Bronco’s, AnonEagle’s, 100th Eagle’s, RandomScouter’s...and the other guys speaking up here, those who are listening and all the others of us. What word or words do we use. My point is, there are none. When we find one or a couple, let’s try to do the same for the aftermath. Words fail.

Sir, this is extremely well said. Poetic even, in a very painful “hits the broken thumb squarely” once again kind of way. I am 100% convinced this is the untold story that seldom enters the discussion, here or elsewhere, mainly because it is gruesome and uncomfortable. As I have said, the abuse is the abuse is the abuse. It’s the aftermath. I don’t know how far back you read but we had a nice jousting session after I brought up the term “soul murder” as coined by Leonard Shengold in his heralded book, Soul Murder: The Effects of Childhood Abuse and Neglect (2017). It was curious when I likened child sexual abuse to the murder of a soul. Ironically, I was almost virtually assisinated for making such a claim. “Where’s the body, if there was a murder?” I launched into “I’ll show you the body!! How much time do you have?” People don’t get this. I told a therapist years ago that child sexual abuse is the original identity thief. You said it so well, brother. So very, very well. I hate that you know this reality so deeply that you could paint such a picture, but hopefully it helps drive home this critical point.

I’m quoting myself to further enhance my importance. As an NA old timer likes to say, “Yeah. I’m still a legend in my own mind and I’m still leading man in my favorite action movies. I just don’t believe my commercials no more.” I would so love to be able to do this on my abuser. How did he get to our Troop in the first place? He lived all the way across town, was newly married and fresh out of the army. Why our Troop? He was completely unknown. Didn’t belong to our Parish. Grew up and went to the Catholic school and church across town. Did someone know him? From where? Was he introduced to the parents? The old SM? The CO? Was he a Scout as a boy? Beats me. I don’t recall him ever mentioning it. How did he buy beer and porn for kids for years and no one though anything of it. The drinking was no great secret. It baffles me and that doesn’t even get into the physical perpetration that stretched at least a decade. Hm...

There are, as is obvious, two systems. Right? One before and one after. I would argue, there must be three. The YPT part, the criminal investigation and the BSA investigation and reporting part. In this abuse context, #2 seems to have been engaged. We don’t know if it can be said to have “worked” until further down the road. In addition to the failure of #1, I’m keen to learn what happens with #3 Or not. How deeply into the backstory of the “means and opportunity” of this abuse will the examination delve, not just by law enforcement? What of all the ancillary human factors that made it possible? Did he know there would be sexual activities, apparently including CSA, going on where he set up his camera? Pretty coincidental. Were there others who were secondarily or primarily involved in means, opportunity and/or perpetration? Did they collaborate? Were kids encouraged or dared to have sex in there? It definitely happens. If so, who said what to whom? If this was a known spot, was it historic? Single incident? This sort of secret knowledge can be passed down from year to year. It’s not uncommon. Having ALL of this information is what can save children this horror going forward. Not, “Whew! We caught him. Thank God that’s over.”

Is that a new Scouting location? College Dorm High Adventure Base? I don’t recall a YPT or Scout Oath and Law associated with my university experience. As awful as that is, it is not what we’re talking about... Dorm, homes, whatever.

And, I once threw a TicTac into the air and it came down and landed in my buddy’s ear and he had to have emergency surgery because it punctured his eardrum and somehow migrated to his Palatine tonsil before it slid down and blocked his esophagus, having turned sideways. TicTacs are now banned at that camp. Come on. You know what we’re talking about...

I agree with you here, for sure. We have a horribly short attention span and equally poor memory. I think that’s why a movement is needed to make this happen. I think that was MYCVASTORY’s point about the equivalent of a Funny Pink Hat Brigade and mine about getting it down to state and precinct rep level. We often think once we kill the Zombie in front of us, that’s game, set and match. Hello? There are ten more coming around that wrecked bus up yonder. Sorry. I can’t stop with the Zombies. They are just so universally applicable.

You have made the point beautifully. Let’s find out. Where are the highest risks and where less so? What situations are the most dangerous and put kids at the most risk? Why not choose a scenario that is ripe and ready? Start with a thorough examination of BSA. See who, what, where, when, why and how in the world all of this happened. Based on what we learn, we’ll know more about what to do and what not to do. Then, we do it again with another context and play it forward...

I’m with ya. 2 Deep and YPT don’t require someone to tail a “chaperone” while he sets up cameras. Back to those devious, evil people. Did he plan or orchestrate the sexual activities and physical abuse, too? Where does this go? Ack. I’m incredibly curious how stuff like this lands on the ears, minds and heart of Scouting parents, present and near future. Is it mentioned or considered? Discussed? Or, it’s a matter of, “Wow, but NO WAY that would EVER happen at OUR camp...”?

There is only so much head shaking I can do before my brains dribble out my ears. Yeah. Awful and so gruesomely poignant for you. I am truly sorry. I shared the previously posted news clip with friends and family last night. I didn’t see the details and had no idea of the connection to you, of course. Good grief. I’ll join you in the “no words” ante room.

Related to this, I’ve been wondering if a collaborative effort could be forged between CHILDUSA and BSA survivors coming out of this process. We have “representatives” in every state and territory, and then, scattered throughout each. We would create a powerful voice and contingent that would be hard to ignore. That effort would likely draw out others to become faces and voices, as well. I don’t mean as a banner of BSA BAD, rather to bring the issue forward in a way that doesn’t turn on one case, one organization or one celebrity’s story. I’ve often wondered why issues like CSA and child exploitation, generally, don’t have more publicly known champions. On this subject, I only know of Marci Hamilton, as I lightning rod on the NGO side, and Tim Kosnoff on the legal. Jeff Anderson has done a lot too, I guess, as have some of the other attorneys whose names escape me at the moment. I know. The Red Beret Brigade. Oh, wait. Guardian Angles got that. Never mind...

Thanks. But why drag it out like that? What was gained if they would inevitably be forced to make disclosures? Well, even if it wasn’t inevitable. This is the stuff that makes the case look even more terrible than it is. These are attorneys for the victims for gosh sakes. Why in the world should they need to hide anything if they’re on the up and up? It may be totally misplaced, but it baffles and disgusts me. Lots of disgust to go around of late.

I can barely remember the year and know little to nothing about 2019 disclosures, so back to the judge’s punchline. Why did they fight this so hard? What, prey tell, might be behind curtain number three where Carol Merrill is standing? Inquiring minds want to know. What are they afraid of, if one can speculate? As for me, I’m afraid the info will be sealed and I’ll be left on the cliff just dangling here.

Thanks for telling us. So, you’re able to speak with him directly? That’s great compared to some of the other reports we’ve heard. If it’s okay, and you may have said this, were you connected to him via the ad campaign?

You beat me to it. I was in the middle of editing my post to add: PS - I look at it as a certified audit. “Here. Come on it. We have nothing to hide. Please poke around and let us know what you find. We are an open book.” And, yes, I welcome that in my life. Good, bad and ugly. Will those disclosures and findings be the undoing? I don’t know. Would inviting the risk to find out be the Scout-like, “trustworthy, loyal, helpful...” and honorable thing to do. Without question.

Thanks. I thought it most clever, indeed. It doesn’t dodge it at all. Not in the least. This is not a philosophical or theological conversation. Foundationally, yes, but practically and logistically that wrangle is completely meaningless without strategic and tactical implementation. I think, and it’s only my perspective but you have reinforced my view many times, you just hate the idea of the BSA being the first to get the proverbial bite. Do you start solving for and curing a disease by treating every carrier simultaneously? Something goes under the microscope. As for me and my house, I vote for the Boy Scouts of America. And so say we all.

Um. How do you eat an elephant, class? Let’s all answer in unison, please. On the count of three. 1, 2, 3: One. Bite. At. A. Time.

Yeah. Thanks for the direction. I’m not going to be at all technical, which I guess I never am. Honestly, I don’t see a “good” personal result for many/most of us. Emotionally, this has been a “terrible, horrible, no good and very bad”...year and counting. “Chainsaws and backhoes and nail guns, oh my!” Consolation would be money, BSA exposure and full disclosure, investigations and the non-monetary YPT demands seriously implemented. Oh. And some money. Did I mention money? Little or no money would totally blow. For me, I can’t overstate that for reasons I explained back when. Now that someone mentioned coinage, 50,000+ from closed states will be bitterly fought, IF we have no clear path around the SoL defense. Add to that the questionable ability to force on the insurers all that’s proposed in the RSA/Plan etc. and you end up with that protracted surgery I’ve spoken of so eloquently. My wife has been in the insurance and high level risk management industry for 36 years and she is very dubious about what she’s read and heard via her husband’s attorney and the WSJ. The entire thing is on very shaky legs, in my opinion. Those who came in with a clear shot at the recovery target in state court will fair the best financially, assuming the money is there and the insurers can be made to pay. It’s a bloody mess and you can’t get blood stains out of the carpet. A very important value will be whatever can be done to improve youth protection and the elimination/significant reduction of future abuse. I do not pretend a goose egg is achievable on that ledger. I just don’t. Aim for it, but don’t count on it. Bad people are often very smart people. Good people are often trusting and gullible people. The combination will always yield some measure of unfortunate results. I think what the TCC, Coalition and FCR are trying to do on that score is noble. If it “works” and is implemented longterm, it will be heartening. I also think it could be a model for other organizations. Time will tell. I hope it will be good, have legs and be a template, but my confidence in implementation and/or longevity is not overflowing. I do also like the idea of widespread AG investigations. They are overdue and appropriate.

The punchline was, “Why are you fighting this so hard?” Which she repeated as he cut her off to do a child’s “But, but, but…MOM!!” She actually ruled for disclosure, but it kind of went wide and now circling with Eisenberg and Coalition. Just said Kosnoff is fully subject to 2019 because “he involved himself in this case.” Confirmed he’s not subject to depo, however.

David Wilks has some serious Gregory Hines level tap chops. Or not! I am enjoying this drowning effort to fight the Kosnoff Law/AIS 2019 disclosures. Finally, legit comic relief during these hearings. Love, love, love it!

In fact, I might email Philip Anker and ask him to raise his hand and enter my digits into the record.