Cambridgeskip

So, according to official UK Scout Association records (an awful system called Compass so unlikely to be strictly accurate!) today marks exactly 20 years since I had my first adult appointment with TSA. In practice it was before that. I was a Young Leader (not sure what you chaps call it, but what was then a venture scout, now an explorer scout helping with one of the younger age ranges) before such things officially existed and I started as an adult with a group which was a bit slow on the paper work. So 20 years was actually back in the spring. But nevertheless we’ll call it 20 years today. Officially I’ve been Assistant Cub Scout Leader, Cub Scout Leader, Scout Leader and Training Adviser. I’ve politely declined Assistant District Commissioner, District Explorer Scout Commissioner and District Commissioner (twice) Unofficially I’ve been Group Scout Leader (dreadful but necessary job) and surrogate Explorer Scout Leader to various YLs. Plus all those random things I’ve been roped into. It’s one of those points in life where you do kind of pause for breath and think about what you’ve done. What you achieved and indeed what you failed to achieve. I flicked back though some old photos before work this morning and will probably do so again this evening and it brought back names and faces I’d long since forgotten. I just thought I’d share a few stories. My first group in Durham (pretty, small, cathedral city between Newcastle and Sunderland) where I was a student was an interesting one. The movers and shakers were a bizarre mix. The GSL and Beaver leader (Beavers are 6-8 year olds) were husband and wife who ran a pub. I never did find out how old they were but at an estimate were in their early 60s. The SL was about 20 years old and worked nights at the Nissan car plant in Sunderland. He used to get out of bed, come to scouts, go straight to work then come home and sleep. GSL and BSL treated him like an honorary son! He also built the group a trailer out of scrap parts at the plant. The Cub Leader was an ex army officer for who health and safety was something that happened to other people and there was no such thing as can’t. His method for getting a lad who used a wheel chair through the high jump part of the athlete’s badge was frankly terrifying! The beating heart of the group was a wonderful character called Nina who’s official title was group secretary. In reality she helped with every section, fund raised, cleaned things and did everything that needed doing. She was raucously loud and never seemed to stop moving. As soon as she knew your name she’d come running up to you in the street and through her arms round you. As a 19 year old student I got some strange looks from my student friends after being accosted in just that manner in the market square by someone old enough to my mum by quite some distance! That random mix of people involved really did seem to work, all those different ages and backgrounds. It was great fun. Mostly the kids I’ve dealt with have all come from safe and loving backgrounds. There’s been the odd one or two here and there who you worry about. On the way to work this morning I found myself wondering whatever happened to a lad we’ll call Bob (not his real name). Bob was a real handful as a cub. Not in a nasty way, just in an excitable, mad cap difficult to keep still kind of way. One day his sixer (do you have those? Like a patrol leader but in cubs) sat on him to keep him still! He was really quite likeable. We had a leader at the time who was a quietly spoken nun. She had Bob eating out of her hand. She seemed to have this way about her that he warmed to and he would do what she asked willingly first time. About the only adult who he did that for. Whenever I encountered mum and dad they seemed to very shouty and sweary and the way they spoke to him and about him regularly left me quite shocked. Then one day they just told me he’d quit cubs and we never saw him again. Such a shame as our nun leader seemed to be such a great influence on him. Whatever happened to him? I’d love to know. He’d be an adult now. My current group is mostly from quite a middle class background and many of them are, for want of a better word, from quite a sheltered background. Something that has made me chuckle when we’ve encountered kids from slightly tougher areas! As CSL I remember being on summer camp with them when we found ourselves camped next to a group from Chelsea. Now we’re not talking the up market Kings Road Chelsea that you are probably familiar with, we’re talking the other side of Chelsea. I don’t know if the awful Grenfel Tower fire made the news your side of the pond but if it did, that part of Chelsea. My slightly posh cubs found themselves rubbing shoulders with some loud kids from inner London who frankly would have eaten them alive given the opportunity! Initially they were a bit scared but gradually started to get on with them. Fast forward a few years and the same generation were now scouts. While on camp at Hawkhirst, a huge campsite in Northumberland near the England/Scotland border a youth group (not a scout group, just some kind of youth club) from central Newcastle arrived on site. It was a very similar clash of cultures! Two of my scouts came back from the toilet block saying “I think we just met some Geordies, we had no idea what they were saying.†A long time since I laughed that much! I don’t know how much you know about Newcastle but it’s a city here with a reputation for being very loud and the locals have an impenetrable accent. I’m hoping the lesson about kids from different backgrounds actually having more in common than might be apparent wasn’t completely lost. There’s no particular reason for this post beyond just sharing a few memories and thoughts. I might add to it later this evening.

The times when an adult should raise their voice are few and far between. As a general rule it should involve having to get someone's attention very quickly, probably in a safety related moment eg "mess tent is on fire, everybody out," or "put that axe that you were swinging around now." An adult having a "bark" on them that they can bring out is useful in such situations. As a general rule though any kind of balling out of a scout by an adult should be done with a level voice, once all the facts are known and understood and normally away from the rest of the troop. As per Stosh's comments, an adult who is in full rage mode has lost control and needs to reign it in. I perhaps wouldn't go as far as asking him to leave for a one off incident but somebody should be speaking to him and making sure he understands the correct procedures, keeping control of both himself and the scouts and the best way of speaking to scouts that do need a "word in their shell" (as we would say this side of the pond). Being cursed with an absolute "fog horn" (in the words of Mrs Cambridgeskip) of a voice in even the most normal of circumstances I find that the best way of expressing my displeasure at something that has gone on (which is rare) is to speak very quietly indeed. It's so unusual that everyone pauses to wonder what on earth has happened

That is such a shame. We get a little bit of that here but not very much. Certainly I've never encountered it and I started helping with cubs when I was 16, 23 years later I'm still around! Certainly as an organisation TSA actively encourages younger adults to get involved. It provides a breath of fresh air and enthusiasm and new ideas compared to the likes of me. Any parent giving me or any of my team a hard time for being a non parent leader would be invited to either put up and shut up or find a different youth organisation for their child to join. I simply wouldn't put up with it. Then I do have the advantage of working for our equivalent of the IRS so I have plenty of experience of being quite robust in my approach to some things

I am curious as to why you think that will be the case? I don't get why it follows that bringing in new adults will create the environment you describe? Different country I know but the none of the adults, be they men or women, create drama or seek to change things to make it a "safe space". The only thing done in that respect is certainly we won't tolerate any form of sexism, same as we won't tolerate any other form of bullying, but scouts now with boys and girls looks broadly like scouts did when I was one 25 years ago and it was just boys. Maybe it's because the vast majority of our adults are not parents of the scouts. These are the mugshots of our current crop of adults (or most of them, a couple not there), only one of them is a parent. I'll leave you to guess which one it is! Of 17 adults between two troops 9 came all the way through scouts and came out as adults at the other end. 1 is a parent. And 7 were friends of existing leaders who got talked into signing up! I'd suggest that despite some muddling through initially you may well find that in 10 years time those female leaders you need are former scouts who have gone all the way through.

I have a feeling we're saying exactly he same thing here! I think the only difference is that when organisations tell a kid this is character building they aren't really that fussed, they just want to do the character building stuff because it's fun. 12 year olds don't sign up to learn how to camp independently with their friends because it shows they are a great leader or team worker or whatever. They sign up to do it because it is great fun. New recruit started last night. She's about as young as they can be to start the scout section, only tuned 10 a few days ago. We had a wide games night in the local woods. You and I know that wide games develops cooperation, strategy, fitness, courage, listening all those good things. She doesn't care. She went home describing it as "awesome" to her mum because she got to run round and get muddy in the woods with her friends on a school night. Job done!

I think you're right for younger ones, cubs with you and beavers/cubs here. When it comes to scouts/venturers/explorers though the gate keeper is the child themselves. Mum and Dad may from time to time say enough's enough, you have to chose, we can't afford to do everything, or it's getting in the way of school work but ultimately it is the child making the call and it is them that you are selling to. It's an unusual 12 year old who turns up because mum and dad think it's good for them. And your average 12 year old doesn't really care about character building stuff. He or she likes lighting fires in the woods with their friends.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about the headline high adventure type stuff. It's pointless because you can;t do that every week or every month and the kids get annoyed that they don't get what they wanted. I'm talking more about plugging that week to week low level outdoor adventure. Basically kids outdoors with smiles on their faces. These are three of my favourite photos from various camps with cubs and scouts. And this a short bit of video. Not a mountain, white water river or glider between them, albeit they are all things we've done. No big stuff that's going to get parents thinking it;s all about college. It's quite simply images of kids outdoors with smiles on their faces. That's the harry potter that gets them through the door. The planning that camp out with next to no adult input, that's the Tale of Two Cities they build up to.

I agree with you to the extent that that peer to peer stuff, taking responsibility etc is great for personal development and should certainly be what scouts are doing. What I'm not convinced by is whether plugging that is what gets them through the door in the first place. From a marketing perspective I think the emphasis on outdoor adventure is where to begin, and introduce them to the patrol method when they get through the door. Think of it as like reading. It's a rare 11 year old that reads Dickens, Austen or Steinbeck. Most are perfectly capable but you need to get them into the library first with a healthy dose of Harry Potter!

Matt - That is a genius idea, thank you!

For WSJ you'll probably find they all get given an event one, colour coded between youth and adults, that will be compulsory to wear while there. So teach someone how to tie one may be a good question!

So.... I've been asked to be an out of county member of the panel that is selecting participants for WSJ 2019 in another county here in the UK. It's being done over a weekend in October so plenty of time to prepare. One part of it is an interview. There's a good deal of guidance about what to look for etc which of course I'll be sticking to but there does appear to be room to be creative at this stage with questions. So as host country I thought I'd get some ideas from yourselves as to questions to ask. I can't guarantee to use them as I may well yet be given more guidance to follow! But for curiosity what do you think I should be asking..... Fire away.

My scouts have a great expression for any adult who is just embarrassing when it comes to doing that. "Home wiv ma downies". One of the most scathing put downs I've ever heard! (thankfully not directed at me. So far.)

As Ian said, it's a glorified urban scavenger hunt. The phone boxes are indeed becoming difficult to find. In some ways we're lucky being a tourist trap because it's about the only place you see them these days, the iconic red phone boxes have been retained in a few spots like Cambridge. Other than that they've nearly all gone. This version is only a couple of hours, a normal scout evening, just meeting in town rather than our HQ. Cambridge city centre is pretty compact! There are longer versions you can set up, just depends on the time you've got. List of what they were asked to find is below. Probably won't mean much to you but it may help as an example of the kind of things we set 1. What is the maximum height of vehicles that can park at Quayside Carparking? (Bridge Street) 2. Which national cycle route is Thomsons Lane on? 3. What time is the last post collection from Market Square? 4. What is Ted Baker licensed to do? (St Andrew’s Street) 5. Who was the monarch when the postbox on the corner of Bridge Street and Jesus Lane was built? 6. Who lives at 28 St Mary’s Street? 7. What time are services at Great St Andrews? 8. Who is standing to be elected to the board of scrutiny at Cambridge University? 9. Take a photo of a member of the public wearing a Scout neckerchief. 10. How many pairs of socks are in the window of Open Air footware on Green Street? 11. What date are the Ultimate Eagles playing at The Corn Exchange? 12. What colour rucksack is the model holding in the window of Cotswolds? 13. What is the statue of Henry VIII holding in his hands above the gates of Trinity College (Trinity Street): 14. What bird can you see in the window of Barclays Bank? 15. Take a photo of the whole patrol inside a red telephone box. 16. What are the names of the doctors Bridge Street Surgery (All Saints Passage)? 17. Who put up the scaffolding at Christ’s College? 18. Who would you phone to rent unit 6, Lions yard? (Petty Cury) 19. Take a photo of the whole patrol as a human pyramid 20. How many black glasses are in the window of Oxfam? (Bridge Street)

So just for fun... some piccies! LAst night was an annual favourite for the troop, the Monopoly run! The patrols are let loose in cambridge city centre to try and find various things from car park height limits to what is in certain shop windows etc. Along the way they have to get some photos. Patrol as human pyramid, patrol in a phone box, member of the public wearing a scout necker. One of the first things the PLC put down when planning the year, there would be insurrection without it! This year we picked up a couple of potential new recruits along the way, simply by having a public presence. Always worth remembering Happy weekends all!

That's good to hear! Our HQ can sometimes be a bit corporate, it's nice when they are a bit more human

What he said! At the end of the day you can't put up with this and neither should the rest of the cubs have to. Get the parents involved and if they don't sort themselves out those cubs are history. Harsh but sometimes necessary. Remember as well that cubs should be preparing them for scouts. They can't go behaving like that in scouts they need to be learning now.

Just passing again.... seeing as I seem to have caused the thread I guess I should say I hope I didn't offend anyone with the original comment..... Certainly wasn't the intention. As you were.

Wow! The $125 is about £100 at today's exchange rate, which compares broadly with the £90 my troop charges. That covers nearly everything we do on a Thursday night and some of the less expensive weekend stuff (District incident hike, district archery competition), plus national capitation, camps come extra. $350? Seriously? That is starting to sound properly expensive. Not surprised some parents are starting to make choices.

I think Ian makes a very good point here. There is a very human and very natural desire, when faced with a big problem, to look for simple causes and simple answers to those problems. Rarely do those simple causes and answers exist, especially when looking at the decline in an organisation as large as BSA. Fixing those problems, whatever they are, doesn't mean having to change the core of the program. Since I joined as Cub in 1986 the UK Scout Association has changed in many ways. Age ranges, badges, uniforms, girls, PR, it's all changed. But at the end of the day what my scouts do on a Thursday night now is barely any different to what I used to do on a Tuesday night in the 1990s. What my scouts do on a camp now is barely any different to what I used to do in the 1990s. Kids in small groups, working together, outdoors at its core with some creative, community and spiritual stuff surrounding it. It hasn't changed because kids haven't really changed. They may have a lot of other options to choose from but a kid now is just as happy cooking their dinner on a fire in the woods now as they were 10, 30 or 100 years ago. I'd suggest that BSA is playing the long game here. Trading losses now for recovery in 20 years time. I'd also suggest that this won't be the last change that you'll see. I suspect that there will be a big effort to capitalise on the world jamboree (which will give you some brilliant PR if 2007 is anything to go by), I'd expect to see some rebranding, changes to uniform* and as Ian suggested, a big push to change public attitudes. The results won't come over night, but they will eventually. *I hope I don't offend anyone but if I could make one suggestion to BSA to change its image. Lose the badge sash. Seriously. The uniform over all isn't bad, I particularly like the navy blue shirt for cubs, much better than ours, but the sash really does have to go.

Yes! Sorry! Example, we have two 18 year old female ASLs who we have because they have been with the group all the way from Beavers to Explorers and out the other end

With regard to the UK I would be very hesitant to link the drop in numbers in the 1990s with going coed. I was a scout at the time and what put most boys off was the fact that it had stagnated and its image sucked. I used to get a hard time at school for being a scout and no one cared that girls could now join. I was teased for the dreadful uniform. Yes we lost some adult members over it and most didn't come back but an awful lot more adults have come on board who wouldn't have if it was single sex. That took time but it didn't eventually happen.

I sent 15 scouts (couldn't make it myself) to spend two weeks with our twin troop in Canada (one on camp, one on home hospitality). They came back without having caused a diplomatic incident Loads of photos here, my favourite one here taken just after they'd all got hooked on baseball at Toronto Bluejays.

Pretty similar this side of the pond. Most scouts like to email. When I reply I CC parents. Quite rare for them to phone! In terms of the system in the OP surely this is counter productive? I'll admit it, sometimes I ignore the phone. (and occasionally specific people!) When I do I would rather they left a voicemail rather than kept calling me. If I didn't pick up first time it's for a reason. ie I don't want or can't talk to them right now!

Matt From having read the various threads on this subject and broadly stayed silent I would agree with you that this aimed at coed and not family camping. Like you I see this "family" term as no more than a euphemism for going coed. I would also add that from experience this side of the pond fewer people will actually quit over membership changes than do so in reality. That's human nature, people say they'll do things then back away when the reality bites. BUT - don't think nobody will. Reading though the various threads there are clearly some who are very passionate about this and will go. I think it's a shame. I am happy to wax lyrically to anyone about how coed scouting really isn't all that different to single sex. But ultimately for some people it won't be the same and they will walk. I think it is a mistake to single people out. Me and Stosh haven't always seen eye to eye on this forum but he's never given me reason to believe he's not a man of his word.

Quite simply it varies from country to country. Some have fully mixed troops, including mixed patrols, some have separate boys and girls troops. I could't name any but I believe some have boys and girls patrols in the same troop. So pick a country and have a look!