CalicoPenn

Simplest solution? If your tent was sold to you folded and rolled - then fold and roll it. If it was sold to you stuffed, then stuff it. Beyond that, it's a personal preference and there are pros and cons with either method, depending on the tent itself. Many of the newer techno-whiz-bang tents have vent systems and windows - stuffing can damage these components so it's best to roll/fold these tents. Sometimes stuffed tents look pretty wrinkled (and it usually means the tent was used once last year, stuffed and stored, then pulled out for the annual trip to the woods - tents that are used often rarely get that wrinkled appearance). Tents that are folded and rolled are often folded along the same lines which leads to weakened material and waterproofing in the creases. Chances of stuffing a tent the same way twice? Not very likely at all. (Yeah - about the shirts - shirts are generally made of cotton or wool - long-fibered natural materials - long fibers are more forgiving, more flexible, stronger. Synthetic tent materials have shorter fibers, much easier to damage). All things being equal, both methods are pretty much equal when it comes to pros and cons, which just leads us back to personal preference. My Coleman gets folded and rolled (Coleman provided nice nylon ties to truss up the rolled tent - seems to me that means the tent should be folded and rolled - plus it's a bit too large to stuff anyway - hmm - size makes a difference too). My REI half dome gets a rolling/stuffed combo treatment. I don't fold it, but I don't just start stuffing it into the sack either - I just gather it up in my hands unti I've created a loosely rolled package which gets stuffed into the sack. The fly gets a fold/roll/stuff treatment - by this I mean I find the vents and windows and bring these together (a loose fold) then gather the rest of the tarp around this base into a loosely rolled package which gets stuffed on top of the tent body. The bag of stakes are put on top of the fly. The footprint gets folded and put into the bag it came in which is put on top of the stakes, and the poles are slid down the side of all.

Our council used to do a council-wide Scout-O-Rama. We got donated use of the horse racing track's interior hall (a rather massive space) during the off season when all the furnishings and accoutrements were off in storage. (think convention hall). Every unit in the Council participated, including the Explorer Posts in some way. It was also a fundraiser for the Council and Units - we sold an awful lot of $1 tickets - most were probably never used. The Council hasn't done then since the late 1980's - which is a shame. Each unit set up a booth of some kind with games, prizes, information, and/or demonstrations. The Packs usually had games that were perfect for Cub Scout and younger age children - things like bean bag tosses (as in "Baggo"), or "fishing" (popular with the young tots, there would be a plywood divider that had a seascape painted on it, the tots would "fish" using bamboo poles, and after a little bit, the string would be tugged an up would come a "fish" (some kind of little toy). Troops usually had some kind of game perfect for Boy Scout age children - and often consisting of some kind of scout skill. It might be a knot tying race, or lashing, or a Kim's game type quiz. It was always a fun time. The booths were set up by District - the only exception being the Explorers which had their own area as one group rather than staying within their District boundaries (mostly because, I believe, it was far more common for Explorer Scouts to cross District boundaries to join a Post. There were only 2 Police Explorer Posts in the Council (which is a very large suburban area of Chicago), 2 Fire Explorer Posts, 2 Sea Scout Ships, so they tended to attract membership from all over. A couple of Troops worked together and set up a monkey bridge every year - always popular. One Troop and brother Pack set up an "Indian Village" complete with teepee every year and would put on a 5 minute show dance about every 1/2 hour. A search and rescue Explorer post set up a climbing wall - this was pre-COPES of course. The Sea Scout Ships would get together and bring in a couple of boats, the Police and Fire Posts brought in police and fire vehicles. The only limits were of the imagination. One of my Explorer Posts, which was at the time, the unofficial OA dance crew (all of the members except one were also members of the OA, the one that wasn't was someone who wasn't a Scout but had friends in the Post. Most of the members all came from one Troop as well, and I did a little research and it turns out that 8 of us also ended up being honored with the Vigil Honor), would present a 20-minute program of authentic Native American dances about once every hour and a half. The Explorer Posts were also used to provide certain services to the Scout-O-Rama. The Police Posts would direct traffic and provide exterior security in the parking lots. The Fire and Medical Posts provided the first aid. A couple of Emergency Services Posts provided internal security (which mostly meant keeping folks out of the grandstand and off-limits areas, and crowd control as needed). (Sorry if I'm being Explorer-centric - I spent 3 years at SoR with my Pack, 3 with my Troop and 7 with my Posts - I remember more about what the Posts did because I was far more active at Scout-o-Rama with my Posts than I was with my Pack and Troop.) The OA did it's annual Lodge Officer elections during Scout-O-Rama (since that was the one event pretty much every Scout in the Council touched at some point in the weekend). Since that now made SoR an official Lodge activity, OA Sashes were a common sight. On Saturday morning, their would be a big flag raising outside - all the Cub Scouts and their leaders would be in one half of a semi-circle around the flag poles, the Boy Scouts (and leaders)in most of the other half, with the Explorers taking up a part of the Boy Scout half at the end of the Semi-circle. Behind the flag poles (and turning the semi-circle into a near circle) would be all the flag bearers of the Unit flags. The Color Guard would always consist of 2 Cub Scouts, 2 Boy Scouts and 2 Explorers - usually someone from one of the Police/Fire Posts and someone from a Sea Scout Ship. There was usually a picture of that gathering every year in the paper. The last time I went to a Scout-O-Rama was on a visit back from College which fell in between my winter camping instructor duties at the Maine National High Adventure base and my summer duties at the Maine National High Adventure Base. My registration at the time was through the High Adventure base so my tab colors were gold. The thought never crossed my mind that I might cause a bit of a stir walking around the hall wearing my uniform with the gold tabs. I just wish we would have had room for a trebuchet!

How big was the footprint that it made that big of a difference in packing the tent? The footprints I've seen fold neatly into a rectangle the size of a folded bandana (ok, maybe two). "The only thing the tag said was "do not fold to store"." Yep - that's pretty common language - I interpret it to mean I can roll and fold to my hearts content if I'm packing it up for a trip and want to try to make the size smaller - as long as I'm either on the trip, or about to go on the trip. Then when I get home, after airing the tent out, I stuff it rather than roll or fold. It's really more of a problem if it's rolled and folded for the long term, rather than the short term. And folded, in this case, means a loose fold - no creases (though I still fold the footprint using the creases it first had years ago as a guideline - I figure if the footprint was sold to me folded, it's safe to store it folded). I should also say, the best packers (car, coolers, trailers, suitcases, backpacks, etc.) seem to be engineers, construction folks (specifically carpenters, plumbers, electricians and, oddly enough, heavy equipment operators - painters, not so much) and artists - they seem to have a better sense of spatial relationships than other folks. So I'm not surprised that you took one look at the gear and bag and figured it out without having been a Scout.

These are simple calls. The IH contacts the parent DC and informs that person that they are no longer welcome in the Troop, and neither are his/her sons. The IH contacts the SE and tells the SE that the appointed COR is the COR. The IH tells the SE that unless the Scoutmaster doesn't pass the background check, and Council can prove it, that the IH expects that the Scoutmaster's application will be approved. The IH informs the SE that s/he has removed the parent DC and sons from the Troop. The IH informs the SE that if that's a problem, the Chartering Organization will no longer sponsor Troop XXX, and that they will be encouraging all of their member businesses not to give money or goods to the Boy Scouts.

The most important Cub Scout tradition to follow is to Keep It Fun. If the Boys had a fun, then you did it right. Congrats on creating a program that works for your unit. As for FOS presentations - the best meetings to have these at are regular Pack meetings - you know, the ones where the Den Chiefs and some Den Leaders can take the Boys (and siblings) outside for some fun while the adults stay inside an listen to yet another boring sales pitch. Nothing makes a Cub Scouts face glaze over into utter boredom faster than some guy they've never seen before asking their parents for money.

Fine - Obama could have given a great speech - in fact, he gave a pretty similar speech about backing democracy and the people of Egypt. Frankly, I find it to be a problem of media management - though I don't think the administration can manage the kind of media we have now. What most know about the issues in Egypt is bits and pieces that the media grabs on to and tries to make them the center of something that doesn't neccessarily have a center. Fox News jumped on the Muslim Brotherhood angle and held onto it like a pit bull, even though the Muslim Brotherhood has no real chance of being anything but a bit player in the game. NPR and CNN grabbed a hold of a Nobel Laureate who gives good sound bite but is a rather wishy-washy, mealy-mouthed individual who comes off, in my opinion, as someone who will step in after everyone else does the hard work. What was left out of the discussion, the things that made the line that the administration had to walk that much finer, is what would happen if the Military took a hard line position against the protestors in support of Mubarak. We know that the administration was keeping in close contact to the government and military - and sometimes the smartest move is not to tell everyone what you know. I'm thanking the Goddess that Obama is President during this time, when we need someone who can look at all the angles and think about what it means. Had we had someone like our last President who came out and demanded Mubarak leave, and threatened Egypt, I don't think this transistion to democracy would be taking place the way it is.

If the lad is 10, and has completed his AOL, and his den mates are all crossing, there should be no reason to leave him behind. This would be one of those cases where you want to tell the leader that's telling the parents the Scout has to be 10 1/2 to prove it up in the literature. Unfortunately, it won't neccessarily help if the Troop is dead set against taking a boy who is not yet 10 1/2. It doesn't help this year, but I wouldn't rush to place any future Webelos in this Troop in the future.

Dances - just doing the math. I was 9 when 4th grade ended in June. So under the current rules, I could be a Webelos in June (let's use June 15 to make the math easy). December 15th would be completion of 6 months. Let's say I worked my butt off and got my AOL at the end of the 6th month, or December 15. My 10th birthday was in late November. In my case, I wouldn't even be 10 years and 1 month old in order to be eligible to become a Boy Scout. Of course, that assumes the school district has a policy that allows for registration up to December 1 for the school year, as mine did (had I been born just 9 days later, I would be 10 when I completed 4th grade). Something like this should be pretty rare nowadays - most school districts have changed registration requirements to September 1 or September 30.

When is too much leadership too much? When a leader is micromanaging the process. I've been very impressed by your postings on how your Troop operates. It doesn't seem as if you're expecting too much of your Scouts. It appears to me that you're pushing them to the limits of their boundaries, and they are responding very positively. I suppose the first response to your situation I would have is to question the Committee Chair on why you first heard about this meeting from the DE and not the CC. My second response would be to find out the specifics of what the parents were complaining about. I'd want to know specific examples of things the parents felt the Scouts shouldn't have to do. My third reaction would be to contact the ASMs and find out what they think. The based on all of that, or perhaps not: My fourth reaction would be to hand the CC my Scoutmaster patch at the next Committee Meeting and wish them all the best of luck. If all the ASM's follow suit, all the better.

No, the key here is that the lad has completed AOL. Once a lad earns AOL, he can join a Troop. The Troop is wrong in their interpretation of the age issue. BUT....there is another key - and that's finding a Troop that will accept the lad. Though National's age guidelines suggest that a Troop should accept the lad if he already has AOL, it doesn't neccessarily force a Troop to accept the lad. Sometimes these things turn out to be a blessing in disguise - chances are he'll have a better fit with a Troop that will follow the age guidelines as written and accept him with open arms than with a Troop that can't be bothered to know what the current age guidelines are, or have their own age guidelines despite the National guidelines.

If you don't see a flag, you should direct your attention to the singer.

"Is it best to let him have his experience and hope for the best?" Yep!

Perdidochas, In defense of TwoCubs position, he did use the word "Had" which suggests lack of choice. Did you have to go to school after high school? No (parental pressure notwithstanding). Did you have to go to grad school after college? Again, no. Do you have to go to school after kindergarten? Yes (and homeschool is still school so no loophole there). Do you have to go to school after 5th/6th grade? Yes. Do you have to go to school after 8th/9th grade? Yes. I think his example wtill holds.

"The Boy Scout handbook says you should give loyalty to those whom loyalty is due, which is no answer at all." I disagree - I think it's just the right answer. It's the BSA telling you that you know who you should be loyal to and don't need some outsider to tell you who you should be loyal to. It's another example of the BSA giving non-guidance guidance. I think you have to interpret it for yourself - and not interpret it for others. I think it suggests that you respect other people's viewpoint on who to be loyal to, even if you disagree. For me, it means being loyal to the people that are loyal to you.

Perhaps tha majority of the American people are so cynical after 10 years of being beaten over the head with the false patriotism of the post-911 years that we're tuning out. We have one political party who screams they're more patriotic than the other and uses that as a bludgeon to get people to vote for them, all the while not actually walking the talk. We have people who believe patriotism means "you're either with us or against us" and you're less of a citizen if you dare criticize the politicians that those people support. We have people who suggested the most patriotic duty citizens could do after 911 was to go out and shop. People may not know what true patriotism is anymore, but they know that what is being passed off as patriotism isn't it.

Just to comment on how this fits into the whole reporting of the Superbowl - from my perspective after checking out the local papers (now granted, I'm from Chicago so there may be some bias - but still). So the big news from the Superbowl: 1) Christina Aguillera flubs the National Anthem - lots of folks upset. 2) Groupon offends people with an ad that seems to make light of problems in Tibet. 3) The best ads are the ads for Bud Light and Doritos, and both involved dogs. 4) The Black-eyed Peas were just so-so. 5) Adorable kid in Darth Vader mask has heart condition. 6) 400 people who had tickets weren't seated because the stadium wasn't ready. 7) Puppy Bowl Somewhere about a distant 20 or so: The Green Bay Packers win the Superbowl. Yep - it actually took some digging this morning to actually find an article that reported on the actual game, and which team won.

I don't think it's neccessary to have a big name do the anthem in the first place - in my opinion, they should have had a local high school show choir sing the anthem. That being said, CA has performed the song before, and has gotten it right. She knows the words, probably better than 90% of the fans at the game. She flubbed it - that happens - it's part of the joys of a live ceremony. And now you can answer the Memorex question - it was live, not tape. So give her a break - she's probably a heck of a lot more mortified by it than you are. Yeah - been to those Blackhawks games. Frankly, I find all that cheering to be absolutely disgusting. If you're cheering and clapping, you don't have your hand on your heart, and you aren't singing along. You can always tell when Blackhawks' fans come to a Chicago Wolves game - they're the ones cheering through Wayne Messmer's fantastic rendition of the Star Spangled Banner while the real Wolves fans, and the Cub Scouts/Girl Scouts/Boy Scouts/Youth groups are wondering who the clowns are. BTW - you'll also notice a difference in reactions to the Canadian National Anthem at a Hawks game and a Wolves game. Wolves fans cheer just as loudly for our neighbor's to the north. Hawks fans? People actually boo.

This may come across as snarky, and maybe it's meant to be snarky. My opinion is that the B&G is now seen as the end all because some "geniuses" (and by genius, I mean idiot) decided that Webelos wasn't enough - we needed Webelos 1 and Webelos 2 which essentially took a 1 year program that worked just fine and turned it into a 1 & 1/2 year program designed to push every Webelos into earning the AOL all at the same time, so they could all cross-over together as one large group, instead of letting it remain a more organic program where Webelos earned the AOL at their own pace and crossed over when their age required them to cross-over. Makes me wonder if those "geniuses" were the same crew that came up with the idiotic "first class, fist year" program.

If we can get back to Sasquatches for a moment, Brotherhood may be on to something here. Any reports of Scoutmasters missing from Camp Fife over the years?

I would say most of the time (ok, all of the time), a Packs and Troops don't need a set of "Bylaws". Yet I sure do agree that Packs and Troops should have a set of "Operating Procedures". I don't consider those to be one and the same thing. Bylaws lay out membership eligibility (the BSA already does that), officers and their responsibilities (the BSA already does that), how officers are elected (the BSA already does that), how officers/members are removed (the BSA already does that), sets the "charter" year (the BSA already does that), sets the annual meeting (for Packs it's the Blue and Gold, for Troops - how many do that?) and what happens when the organization ceases to exist (which is between the BSA and the Chartering Organization). Who writes checks, how often you audit accounts, where you bank, what time you meet, where you meet, who gets keys, etc. etc. are all operational procedures - and they tend to bog down Bylaws. Just put them in a procedures manual - easier to change when needed. Most of the things I've seen in Troop "Bylaws" are either word for word regurgitations of things that the BSA provides in their various handbooks (like rank requirements, POR descriptions, etc.) or directly contradict BSA policy in one way or another. Does a Troop really need to publish G2SS in their "Bylaws"? I don't think so. But - Beavah mentions the ole "Friends of Troop 1234" type CO's. Now THIS is where Bylaws come in handy. Friends of Troop 1234 is a Chartering Organization. It is NOT the same thing as a Troop Committee. Sure, it may very well share the same members, but it doesn't neccessarily have to. It would be wise for these organizations to develop a set of Bylaws that describe who may be members of the Friends group (you're not describing who may be members of the BSA - only of the Friends group). You'll describe the Officers (say a President, Vice President and Secretary at a minimum - Treasurer could be optional since the Friends group might not even have their own bank account). The President becomes the Institutional Head. Your Friends group may be made up only of parents of lads in the Troop or Pack, or it could be made up of parents, folks who have had kids age out, and/or just interested members of the community. But the Friends "bylaws" should not be confused with Pack/Troop operations. It should only govern what the Friends group does, or doesn't, do. As for Venturing recommending that their youth develop bylaws for their crews - that's a Venturing thing - just as the Pinewood Derby is a Pack thing, and Summer Camp is a Troop thing, there are things, like bylaws, that should be considered just a Venturing thing. As for a Committee voting to spend $10K on a rusty old trailer at a meeting in a snowstorm, there is a remedy for that too - angry parents complaining vociferously to the Charter Organization and putting pressure on the CO to get the committee's heads screwed back on right. That's my 5 cents (inflation, ya know) for what it's worth. Because ultimately, as Acco pointed out: Should they? No. May they? Yeah.(This message has been edited by calicopenn)

"because parents would, reasonably enough, fear predators" No - they would irrationally fear predators because people like you keep making false accusations against homosexuality. "there is a far greater percentage of pedophilia among homosexuals than there is within a comparable cohort of heterosexuals." Approximately 95% of pedophiles are heterosexual. Approximately 5% of pedophiles are homosexual. Which pretty much matches the approximate size of each group in the general population and pretty much shows the above argument to be utter nonsense.

In the meantime, some may want to check their answers to see if they're following the Scout Law as well - seems that some that are harping on Trustworthy and Reverent are missing something in the Helpful, Friendly, Courteous and Kind departments. The emphasis on "honesty" in "trustworthy" bothers me a bit too. They aren't neccessarily synonymous yet it seems many believe that they are one and the same. There was a political candidate in this last election that got herself into a bit of a pickle when she admitted that had her family been hiding Anne Frank, and had she been asked by the "authorities" if Anne Frank were in her house, she would have said "yes" in the name of honesty. I think most people understand that there are times when being 100% honest is not the right thing to do. Shouldn't part of trustworthy be expressing an understanding that if someone wants to do harm to somebody, and we know where that person is, that we can be trusted enough not to say anything that will lead someone to harm? Being trustworthy is more about doing the right thing than being honest. Most of the time, being honest is doing the right thing, but there may be a time when not being 100% honest is the most trustworthy thing. As to the specific questions - had the sexuality and athiesm not been broached, my answer would have been Yes and Yes. Knowing the sexuality and athiesm, my answer is still Yes and Yes. I'm not bigoted enough to believe that just being gay and/or an athiest makes someone less good, moral or well-mannered or less of a role model. Frankly, the "trustworthy" argument seems to be a reach - a way to express prejudiced viewpoints while trying to avoid the label that comes with expressing prejudiced viewpoints.

Eagle, It wasn't my intention to put you on the defensive. Schiff, I'm going to vehemently disagree with the following: "The Scout Law starts "A Scout IS...." well scouts don't start that way if they did we would have no job to do. Over time scouts BECOME Trustworthy, Loyal...and if you are very lucky Clean. Our goal is to develop a First Class Scout who can say I AM trustworthy, loyal ...I am a scout." Nope - Scouts don't become Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, etc. as they go on. They already are - the moment they become Scouts. The moment they become Scouts, we should act as if they already are Trustworthy, Loyal, etc. The Scout Law doesn't start out with "A First Class and Above Scout is Trustworthy". It starts out with "A Scout is" - and that refers to all Scouts. They may not know what those things mean when they become Scouts, but they already are those things.

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here. Was his project approved before the fundraising was done? Then what further approval from the SM does he need to raise funds? It's his project - he's got to take the bull by the horns and get it done, not wait for approval of the SM each step of the way. How do you "know" the money didn't go to the project? Have you seen an accounting of the funds? The lad went to a different unit and got his Eagle - was it the same project? If so, you don't really have any concrete evidence that the money didn't go to the project or the beneficiary since you never saw the final project write-up, which should have included an accounting of funds raised. This lad didn't change units in a vaccuum. The parents had to have had some kind of input and involvment. If I was this lads parent, I might see your statements as false accusations against my son and decide that it's just not going to be worth the aggravation to deal with you in this case. Be cautious on your accusations. Make sure you have solid proof, otherwise, it's your reputation that could be the most damaged by this.

When your son recruited his friend, where did the friend end up, in the Webelos Den or in the Troop? If the new lad is 10, is still in 5th Grade, and has NOT earned the AOL, he is not eligible to be a Boy Scout. He is only eligible to be a Cub Scout, and Cub Scout's can not earn Boy Scout ranks like Tenderfoot. So now what? Well, first is to make sure your son's friend really is 10. Are you 100% sure about that? Could he have been held back a grade, or started school later, and he is really 11? If he is really 11, then if he was assigned to the Troop, that is the reason why, because you are eligible to be a Boy Scout at age 11, regardless of what grade you are in. If, however, the lad really is 10 and a mistake really was made in assigning him to the Troop, it would be a smart idea for the Scoutmaster and Advancement Chair to contact the Unit Commissioner for help in figuring out what to do next. If the lad turns out to be Eagle-bound, it's going to be much better to fix and correct now than wait until his Eagle Application goes in and it's discovered he was awarded Tenderfoot when he wasn't eligible to be a Boy Scout. It might not end the process, but it sure would put a big monkey wrench into it. Better to solve now. I'm curious. Is the Pack and the Troop so closely related that they share a Court of Honor? Cub Scout Packs generally don't have a Court of Honor since advancements are usually acknowledged at every Pack meeting. The closest thing Cubs have to a Court of Honor is the Blue and Gold which really isn't a Court of Honor but a birthday party for the Boy Scouts of America. If not, why would the AOL be awarded at a Boy Scout Court of Honor - it's a Cub Scout Award and should be recognized at a Pack Meeting.