CalicoPenn

Social Security and Medicare are NOT entitlements - not in the neocon right wing sense of the word. If they are entitlements at all, it is because you PAID separately into it and are "entitled" to the benefits that you PAID for. Social Security and Medicare benefits are not paid out of the general fund, and their relation to the debt is not as folks think - that we're borrowing money to pay for Social Security and Medicare. No, we're borrowing money to pay BACK the money we borrowed from Social Security and Medicare. Social Security and Medicare are Debt Holders, NOT Debtors. If there should be any time for folks to say we will not compromise, it is on cuts to Medicare and Social Security, with one exception - we should have no problem cutting Medicare programs that weren't eased in and paid for, like the Prescription Drug plan. When you borrow money from a bank, and later on decide you can't figure out how to pay it all back, you can't go to a bank and demand that the bank cut their expenses to make up for your irresponsibility, can you? Yet that's exactly what the "Tea Party" congressfolks are doing - saying we can't pay Social Security and Medicare back for the money we borrowed from them and the solution is to cut Social Security and Medicare. As for the "Tea Party" - there are still folks out there who want so much to believe that the Tea Party is the small, grassroots effort it started as and are in complete denial that the Tea Party has been thoroughly taken over by the right wing with an agenda quite different from what they want. It is the right wing that is in front of the media everyday, drumming their "tea party" message. There may be no national tea party office, but there are an awful lot of tea party groups and individuals from the GOP right wing taking on that role for themselves. Fortunately, many people are finally waking up to that and are wondering how they let themselves be co-opted so easily.

Have the requirements become easier, or is that just a perception? Sure, we don't have requirements concerning morse code and flag signaling anymore - but the Scouts of that time didn't have requirements to meet regarding internet safety, participating in a program on substance abuse, explaining the three R's of personal safety, completing exercises in preventing child abuse or leave no trace. Back in the 50's and throughout most of the 60's, there was no requirement for an Eagle Scout leadership project. Some complained mightily about how skill awards in the 70's dumbed down the requirements. They did no such thing - they merely moved the requirements into categories and were as rigorous as they were when they were separated out into the rank requirements. Yes - there are some things that we constantly talk about, as Beavah has mentioned, because there are so many different ways of interpreting things like what active means, etc. I've used the franchise argument before and have been naysayed for doing so, but the similarities are still there. When Micky D's puts out instuctions on how to make a Big Mac, they expect every store, everywhere, franchised or corporate owned, foreign or domestic, to follow those instructions. When the instructions say use one squeeze of secret sauce on the top bun, they mean one squeeze, not two, and top bun, not the middle or bottom bun. If it's made any other way, it is not a Big Mac. The reason behind this is one thing, and one thing only - consistency. When the BSA says that active means registered, and engaged by their adult leaders. they do so out of consistency, so that every Scout earning a rank, no matter where in the country (or world) he's earning it, is doing so under the same rules. When Troop 12X says active is attend 75% of meetings, then it is no longer the BSA's Star Rank. Some rank requirements are pretty self evident - there is only one way to tie a taut-line hitch - the one's we dicker over are the ones that are subject to an individuals viewpoint. That is no excuse, however, for not delivering things beyond the requirements of rank. A Scout may only need to demonstrate how to display, raise, lower and fold the American flag once for Tenderfoot, but that shouldn't mean he never has to do so again. For Second Class, he may only need to plan and cook one hot breakfast or lunch on a campout, but that doesn't mean he never has to do it again. For rank, they're learning the skills that they are meant to then put into practice. It's up to us, as the adult leaders, to guide the PLC's to create a program that provides plenty of opportunity to put those skills to use.

So what happens when the battery runs down? How are you going to recharge them? Is that going to be the next big capital project at camps? Cell phone charging stations in the campsites? On the other hand, perhaps that could be a new pioneering project - construct a cell phone tower instead of a climbing tower.

What a great story. Now if y'all will excuse me, I got some dust in my eyes when I read about the youngest Scout in your Thorns and Roses.

"But if you are registered in three different units in the same council - for example, in two crews and a troop - you just show up once. Correct?" Probably not. That would take a sophisticated program that could identify duplicates of people who hold different membership numbers for multiple units and I doubt the BSA or a Council is going to pay for that programming, and such a program will always create errors. Consider - the name Johnson is one of the most common last names out there. In a council of any size, you could have 5 different "Bob Johnsons" registered in different units - and it would only count 1. So either way is not perfect. The only solution would be to assign a unique registration member to each person registered that you carry with you from unit to unit, and can share between 2 or more registrations. Before the BSA or a Council pays to set up the kind of programming that will assign each person a unique number, they'll try using the unique number all of us already have - the Social Security number - how popular do you think that will be?

scr - well it's possible to generate zinc fumes over a campfire. But the big question is, will you generate zinc fumes over a campfire. First, we need to understand what galvanized steel is. It's essentially steel or iron bathed in melted zinc which chemically bonds to the steel or iron to help prevent rust. Second, we need to understand gasification. In order to put out any fumes (which is the gas state of matter), a solid like zinc has to first be turned to a liquid state, then has to be heated up enough to start the gasification process. Think ice to water to steam. Ice (solid) puts out no fumes. Left to melt to water (liquid), water, without being heated, puts out no fumes (steam - the gas state of water). Bring a pot to boiling and at some point, the water will start to put out fumes (steam), and usually before it reaches the boiling point. The melting point of zinc is 787.24396 degrees Fahrenheit. The boiling point of zinc is 1,664.6 degrees Fahrenheit. At some point between those two temperatures, zinc will start to put out fumes (the gas form of zinc). We know that campfires can get to at least 800 degrees Fahrenheit - the melting point of lead - in the revolutionary war, people melted lead over campfires to make bullets. Depending on the wood used, campfires can reach about 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit. Zinc falls well within that range. So, according to the science, yes, you could conceivably create zinc gas over an open campfire. However, the zinc is chemically bonded to another metal - usually iron, and the melting point of iron is 2,750 degrees Fahrenheit. The question becomes, will you be able to heat the zinc enough to force it to lose it's chemical bonds with the iron? Probably not at the lower range of the temperatures needed to turn and keep zinc liquid, but potentially at the upper range of those temperatures, and even then, it's just as unlikely to melt as it is likely to melt. Aluminum melts at about 1,220 degrees Fahrenheit - if your fire won't melt aluminum, you're probably safe. If you're building fires that reach 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit, then you might want to take a look at your fire building practices. Of course this all assumes that you're putting the tub on the fire empty. As Gary mentions, there is an added element here - water in the tub. And water heats to boiling in the tub by absorbing the heat of the vessel its in, until it reaches its boiling point. Even after the water reaches its booiling point, the metal still isn't going to start increasing in temperature until all the water has turned to steam. So even if your fire is hot enough to cause zinc to melt, until the vessel no longer has water to push as much heat as possible in to, the zinc won't reach its melting point. I'd say you're probably safe to boil your water in your galvanized tubs over an open flame but if it truly becomes an issue, then use your camp stoves. You can probably try to explain the science to those who are worried, but they won't listen because they've already been told that zinc fumes can be created and are dangerous. Of course, dollars to donuts they also take zinc tablets when trying to fight off a cold, but hey, why go there.

When it comes to facebook, call me a luddite - I don't have one either. Have no desire to get one, and see no reason to get one.

Yeah, the guy got some facts incorrect - it's Buffalo Bill Cody, not Wild Bill Cody (it was Wild Bill Hitchcock), Chief Yellow Hand (Yellow Hair - but often misidentified as Yellow Hand) wasn't killed at the Battle of Little Big Horn, but he was killed by Cody in 1876 shortly after the battle of Little Big Horn at the Battle of Warbonnet Creek, and Yellow Hand is thought to have been at Little Big Horn. "Chinese" Gordon was a name given to him by the British public after he returned from China - and the war in China was essentially a civil war so he was, indeed, involved in skirmishes that killed Chinese. Why was he given the name "Chinese' Gordon? Some say because he had command of a Chinese army, some say because of his success in China, and some say because he was known as a killer of Chinese. Given that Merriman is a professor of European history, he likely has sources at his disposal that isn't Wikipedia. And he is a professor of European history - not American history - so we should consider that when criticizing him for getting some aspects of frontier history wrong - it's doubtful most Americans know much about Buffalo Bill Cody other than that he had his famous show. Sure, knickers weren't American Frontier, but BP hadn't visited the American Frontier, and as was stated, it based on what BP THOUGHT was being worn on the American frontier, not what he KNEW - so I can let that slide. The Sons of Daniel Boone and the Woodcraft Rangers may not have been in Scotland, but the Boys Brigade was (and if you look at what they were doing, you'll find similarities to Scouting) - and could reasonably be assumed to be the forerunner of all of the youth movements that came later (BP was a part of the Boys Brigade at one point, it helped convince him that a Scouting group was feasible). Keep in mind, this is a transcript of a speech - Merriman may, or may not, have reviewed it after it was transcribed. Take a look at the criticized quote: ""Now, there had been groups of frontier-inspired youth organizations that existed in Scotland, particularly." Now move the comma from between Scotland and Particularly to between Existed and In thusly: "Now, there had been groups of frontier-inspired youth organizations that existed, in Scotland particularly." And the emphasis of the sentence changes from there were organizations that existed in Scotland to there were organizations that existed, including in Scotland. Change that emphasis, by a simple matter of moving one comma, and what follows is perfectly reasonable. It is as reasonable to believe there is a transcription error than to believe there isn't. So sure, there are some errors that crop up - but the numbers of errors don't take away from the main thesis - that the Scouting movement was born during a period of Imperialism, and while BP's later writings, after he retired from the military, seek to make his scouts to be a "peace" organization, the ideas did come from his period during the Boer Wars and his worries about how ill-prepared British Youth were to continue the quest for British glory. That Scouting emerged from an imperialistic period doesn't take anything away from Scouting at all - it's part of the history of the times - we should be celebrating that Scouting survived without trying to deny history to do it.(This message has been edited by calicopenn)

I think Scoutfish has it right. More and more potential employers are requiring applicants to provide access to their facebook pages. I don't know if this has been fully tested in the courts yet, but it would seem to me that if a potential employer is forbidden by law to ask certain questions on an application and an interview, then requiring facebook could give them access to information they aren't legally able to require during the interviewing process. I'm not neccessarily thinking about the 17 year old holding up a beer can, but of the 35 year old mother of 3 who can't be forced to disclose until after being hired, and an employer finding out on her facebook page and not hiring her base on information that would otherwise not be allowed to use in determining the eligibility for employment. Bringing that back to Scouting - how long do you think it will be (if it isn't happening already) before Scouts are required to open their facebook pages to members of a BOR or EBOR - and not by the BSA. Yes, facebook can be a great tool for Troops to keep in touch with their Scouts and parents, and for recruitment - but it can also be used a a modern day equivalent of the Salem Witch Trials.

83Eagle - you had Cubs there the whole time - even though some left early, your unit should still have gotten a participation ribbon. I'd be giving the District Chairman an earful right about now because whoever made that boneheaded decision should be called to task.

Step 1: Scoutmaster's minute leading to the question "Do you know who's looking at your Facebook page?" Step 2: Scoutmaster's conference with the lads with what you consider questionable material in them with reminders that you're not the only one looking at his Facebook page - college admissions boards, prospective employers, potential girlfriends, teachers, parents, other scouts, Troop leaders. Either the lad get's the message or doesn't. That's about as far as I would go - you give them the information to make the right decisions, then let them make the decisions they're going to make. Beyond that? What did we do for BOR's before My Space and Facebook? Is it really th best use of our time to be the "morality" police? Is that what the BSA is about? If the kid is swearing up a storm in front of the other Scouts, that's an issue to be dealt with at Scouts. If he's using the f-bomb on his Facebook page, I really don't care - I'm not pollyannish enough to believe that the lads aren't swearing outside of Scouts and that the f-bomb isn't a regular part of their language among friends. I want him to understand the future impact it can have on how people perceive him - but I'm not going to postpone advancement because if it.

Sorry - just noticed a typo and too late to edit - the Utah papers reported 4 Scouts and 2 leaders

This story is a perfect example of why multiple sources should be checked. Later stories by the Deseret News and the Salt Lake Tribune, Utah papers reporting on a story affecting a Utah family, state that the Scout (Matt Parker, not yet 15 (but close - birthday was 10 days away) was one of three Scouts and 2 Leaders in an open bow boat that hit an outcropping of rock at night on their way back to camp from dinner on Antelope Island. No mention of recreation area rangers being in the boat, though there is also no mention of any other boats in the group - could be possible that a recreation area ranger was with them in another boat - but its also possible that there wasn't a ranger with them at all and that the Arizona paper just got the press release details wrong and that the mention of recreation area rangers was in conjunction with the rangers responding to the scene of the accident. The Salt Lake Tribune mentions that the driver of the boat is from Hurricane, Utah, which is where this unit is from. Yep - this is a Boy Scout accident - and though it might be snarky to some, the "again" is appropriate as there have now been 3 deaths of Scouts from Utah this summer. In the meantime, the Scouting community has lost a Scout. May he rest in peace. (for those wondering what an "open bow" boat is, it's a boat with a seating area in front of the boats cockpit).

I'd like to know how the camp adult leaders handled this visit. If I were the Scoutmaster and these ladies just showed up for a visit with no warning, I'd be telling their sons, in front of the moms and the entire Troop, to pack their bags because their mommies came up to bring them home. Would I lose those Scouts? Probably - and I would be just fine with that. I mentioned that I went to a Scout camp that had a family camp. The family camp had their own waterfront, their own dining hall, cabins for families, and their own activities. One year my father was one of the leaders for a week and my mother and youngest brother spent their time at family camp. I didn't see them when they arrived, I didn't see them the entire week we were there, and didn't see them until the last day of camp when we hopped in the car to continue heading north instead of taking the bus south back home. We left after the buses left so we could help our Troop get packed and settled on the bus. It's a shame that today's parents just can't seem to see the value in giving their sons space for personal growth.(This message has been edited by calicopenn)

Lets start by stating that Chapters are optional operational divisions of a Lodge. They exist for one purpose, and one purpose only, to support the Lodge. Chapters are used to spread out as much of the workload as possible. Troops and Crews are autononomous units. They aren't subservient to a Lodge. They can raise funds, and hold equipement on behalf of their sponsors. Is the plan to have the Lodge sponsor all of these units? There is a major difference between Troop/Crew operations and Lodge operations. Troops & Crews have adult committees. Lodges/Chapters do not. In the OA, the youth truly do run the operations - they make the decisions and make things happen. They have advisers to mentor them and to steer them in the right direction, and to keep them apprised of the expectations of the Executive Board and SE - but it's up the the youth to run the Lodge. Troops & Crews may be youth-led, but they aren't truly youth-run. That could be a conflict. There is a minimum age for Crews. 14 or 13 and have completed 8th grade. Sounds like a perfect fit for the OA except that there is no minimum age for OA membership. If a lad has earned 1st class and meets the camping requirements, he's eligible - and with some folks still using 1st class 1st year, you could have 12 year old OA members that can't join the crew. If the chapter is going to be a crew, how welcoming will it be to 12 and 13 year olds? There is a maximum youth age for Troops. 17 and 364 days. What happens to all the Troop members who turn 18 - do they become ASM's? Say you have a chapter of 100 Scouts, half 18 to 21 - are you really going to have a Troop with 50 Assistant Scoutmasters? If your Chapter Chief is 16, he's in charge - even of these "Assistant Scoutmasters". Can you tell me that the Troop's POR structure is compatible with the OA? I don't believe it is. Oh - and are you ready to start holding BOR's for Scouts looking to advance, or are you going to make it a neutered Troop where there is no advancement, in which case what's the point? Are you going to make it mandatory/automatic for Scouts in a chapter to join a Chapter Troop or Crew? Scouts have a primary duty to their primary units. It's hard enough sometimes to convince Scoutmasters that the OA isn't a threat to their unit's wellbeing. How long do you think the Lodge can survive if the Scoutmasters start believing that the Chapters are running elections just to recruit for their Troop/Crew? If you don't make it mandatory/automatic, what happens when Johnny Ordeal decides he doesn't want to join the Chapter Troop/Crew? Will he have the same opportunities for participation as other OA members or will he not be welcome because he's "not part of the group"? Do you really think you can control people in the future who will decide that Johnny Ordeal won't become Johnny Brotherhood (or even Johnny Vigil) if he's not in the Chapter unit. I was in a Native American dance Explorer Post. The 5 of us that were eligible for it were all in the OA. All 5 of us were active in the Chapter. 3 of us were Chapter Chiefs. 1 of us became a Lodge Vice Chief. All 5 of us also ended up chosen for Vigil Honor, as was our Post Advisor. But, and this is important, we were not the Chapter's Explorer Post. In fact, the 5 of us also came from the same Scout Troop - and we had non-Scouts in the Post because of a shared interest in learning culturally authentic dances. Our teachers (and assistant advisors) were full-blooded Potowatamie's that lived in town. One of their son's was one of my best friends. We didn't exist to be in the OA - we supported the Chapter, we danced for the Chapter, but we were a separate unit, with our own "regalia" separate from the Chapters. We never overwhelmed the Chapter - our Chapter was strong and active enough that if we didn't exist as a Post, it wouldn't have made a difference. The 5 of us were active in the OA because we wanted to be, not because it was expected of us as part of being in the Post. Our home Troop had heavy participation in the OA too - and not because it was expected, but because the OA was embraced by the adults and that was reflected in our participation. And I think that's the way a Crew should operate. If there are a bunch of people who want to be part of a Native American Dance crew, then great - but keep them as a separate entity from the Chapters - they can certainly support - but they shouldn't be - the Chapter. The strongest chapters I've seen are those that attract active members from many Troops. The weakest are those that attract most of their active members from just one or two units. My suggestion - when the Professional's bring the idea to you, smile, nod, then ignore them. Build your chapters up by making sure they aren't perceived as a threat to Scoutmasters, and are perceived as somewhere where Scouts from different Troops can get together to share brotherhood and ideas. Did you notice when I said that my home Troop had heavy participation in the OA because the adult leadership embraced the OA? That is the number one way of building up a Chapter. You need to make sure that the adults in the Troops support the OA, are not ambivalent about it, don't see it as a threat but rather as another opportunity for developing leadership.

Thought someone might recognize the camp. I'm pretty sure the only reason I was able to do as many as I did is that I was a water rat, the AD liked me, and I was a competitive swimmer. Ma-ka-ja-wan was pretty accomodating to the Scouts that were competitive swimmers - they had a closed hour once a day for swim team members to use the waterfront for serious practice at the time - right before dinner. You had to let the Aquatics Staff know every day by lunch if you would be swimming during that time - that way, if no one was using the time, they wouldn't have to staff it. Flip turns could be an issue but if you swam the shorter distance between the dock and the floats, it could be done. When I was 15, I was a CIT at Ma-ka-ja-wan - one of the first out-of-council CIT's the camp ever had (the reservation director thought I was the first). During staff training week, it naturally came up that I was the guy that broke the records on number of mile swims and times - and some of the staff challenged me to a race. It was, unfortunately, the only mile swim I had time for that year, but I was at the head of the pack at the finish and had gotten in at 33 minutes so that was ok. So where did a water rat like me end up doing his service? As the camp clerk.

I went to a camp that offered 2-week sessions, which our Troop took advantage of. I did the mile swim at least 2 times each session. When I was 14, I did it 14 times. I was a competitive swimmer and transitioning from swimming backstroke to swimming long distance. I was about 3-5" shorter than the folks I would be swimming against in backstroke and that does make a difference. The scout reservation had three camps - East, West and Family. All three had a waterfront on the lake. The mile swim was from waterfront to waterfront to waterfront in a counterclockwise triangle. We stayed at west camp so our mile was west to family to east to west. Before going to camp, I had mentioned to my Scoutmaster that I hoped to do the mile swim as many days as I could as practice and training - he said he'd make sure someone would row the boat for me. We told the Aquatics Director when we went the first day for swim checks and, since he already knew me from previous years, said he would help make it happen. On the last day of camp, he had arranged with the east and family camp AD's to "open" their waterfronts before breakfast so I could do a mile swim. Thought that was very nice of him. When I was swimming with other people, it generally took 45 minutes to an hour - depending on how relaxed people were about doing it, and what strokes they were using. I found that most folks would start off with freestyle then switch to a combination of sidestroke and elementary backstroke after about 5 minutes. When I swam alone, I usually took about 30-35 minutes and did it all freestyle. I wasn't able to do the mile swim every day at camp - none on the first day, had an all day raft trip one day, weather closed the waterfront one day, and took a rest day in the middle but I made up for them by doing 2 swims in 1 days. Only one of them was back to back. When I did the back to back, I swam with another Scout from the Troop and when we got back to west camp, asked if I could go again - my SM took over the rowboat, and the AD dared me to go as fast as I could and he would time me. He called the other 2 waterfront directors and said I was going to swim and he wanted to get times from them when I got to their waterfronts. They agreed, he started me, and I took off doing freestyle. Within a couple of minutes, I got into that "zone" we all hear about - and I just cruised. I didn't know how fast I was going, but I just felt good. I rounded past family camp, and apparently had made it there pretty quickly. Left my poor Scoutmaster struggling to catch up. He had announced my time on the radio and said it looked like I was being chased by a northern pike. I had no idea when I got to east camp a few minutes later why their waterfront had stopped activities and everyone was on the dock cheering me on. I also had no idea why I was now being shadowed by a motorboat instead of the row boat. I learned when I got back to west camp that I did the mile in 22 minutes (as timed by the staff), and that the AD at west camp noticed that my poor Scoutmaster couldn't keep up and waved him back and put a staffer in a motorboat to shadow me. The kicker? When I got back home, the coach changed his mind and switched me over to Butterfly.

Yep - advancement is a method. But from the sounds of it, some summer camps are so geared towards advancement and merit badges that other methods get short shrift. What about Leadership Development? What about Personal Growth? What about Outdoor Programs? As a lad, my troop went to a camp that offered both one and two week sessions. Half the troops in the camp were there for 2 weeks. We were there for 2 weeks. The typical number of merit badges that we earned during those two weeks was 4. Yep - 4. That's 2 per week - though most of us started all 4 at the same time - and just took our time getting them. Camp was taken up with so many other things that sometimes we just didn't have time to go to "merit badge classes" - but that was ok to, because there weren't "merit badge classes". There was one opening meeting at the beginning, and then you worked at your own pace with your counselor. There would be opportunities that came up - like bog hikes - that you might do with a counselor for a badge, but most of the time, you did the requirements at your own pace and met with your counselor when you needed to. It wasn't unheard of for a counselor to speak to one Scout about a soil project and another Scout about an insect collection 15 minutes later. Program areas were open in the morning for merit badge work only, and not scheduled by merit badge classes. In the afternoon, the nature center was closed (because the counselors were leading bog hikes or troops on hikes through the property), the waterfront was either open swim, or scheduled troop swims, the archery, rifle and shotgun ranges were open periods (and reservable for troop shoots in the evening). On any given day, troops were leaving right after breakfast for a raft trip down the Wolf River, or were coming back from an overnight across the road at the camps horse ranch. The only program area that had anything resembling a scheduled class was the waterfront - where rowboating was offered from 9-10, canoeing from 10-11, motor boating from 2-3 and sailing from 3-4 - but you didn't have to go to all the classes, and they were pretty free flowing - the instructor ready to help Scout A with a J-stroke and Scout B with swamping. It might be announced that the scouts taking pioneering had an opportunity to build a tower in the afternoon, and that anyone should feel free to come even if they aren't taking the merit badge - more people who hadn't intended taking pioneering ended up getting pioneering because the opportunity was open to all and once that was done, well, heck, may as well do the rest. If you just wanted to hang in camp all afternoon and read - that was just fine too - but most of the time, we found things to do. Bobby might come back to camp and say he's going fishing, anyone want to come along? There was always something to do without having camp so structured that all you did was merit badge work. I went on the bog hike one afternoon for a merit badge. I can't remember which merit badge I took the hike for - but I remember the bog hike. I took the bog hike 3 years in a row and didn't need to the 2nd and 3rd year. I took it because it was fun, and I learned a lot about pitcher plants and sundews and bogs. When we came home and our parents asked us what we did, it was those things that stood out - bog hikes, watching the stars, sailing the big boat, building a tower, fishing before breakfast, doing 14 mile swims in one camp session, horse ranch overnights, raft trips. If your lads are coming home and only remembering the merit badges they earned, and the classes they had to sit in on, then, in my opinion, the camp is doing it wrong.

There seems to be a consensus building that First Aid Merit Badge is a good one to earn at camp. Sure, folks may have had a good experience at camp with it, but is it really a camp merit badge? If a Scout needs First Aid but wants to take Motorboating and has to choose, what do you do? Have them do First Aid, which can be done well outside of camp, or let them do Motorboating, which for most Scouts will be difficult to do outside camp. (not sure how I missed Swimming - I did mean to put that one in there). Archaelogy and Indian Lore (thought of Indian Lore) - if the camp has folks that can do it well, sounds great. Art, Photography, Cinematography, Journalism - I have mixed feelings - great to do some work on them at camp but are they really camp merit badges? Or am I just old fashioned when I think of summer camp? Is advancement the be all and end all of summer camp? If we stop offering the Eagle required badges, will summer camp attendance suffer? Is the latest generation of Scouts really that uninterested in the traditional outdoor badges that were offered at camp that we have to offer Eagle required badges to 4th and 5th year campers in order to keep them coming? Or are we coddling Star and Life Scouts by offering these badges because they are too busy, or too lazy, to try to earn them during the rest of the year? Perhaps on a more philosophical level about the direction of the Boy Scouts, if the market is demanding that summer camp be an opportunity to earn as many merit badges as possible, including those that are Eagle required, is the Boy Scouts becoming just another resume builder activity and is it worth it to fight to keep that happening or shall we just surrender and let the BSA become just a mediocre organization that no one really cares about anymore?

I looked over the list of merit badges and came up with 38 that seem particularly suited to summer camp: Archery, Astronomy, Backpacking, Basketry, Bird Study, Bugling, Camping, Canoeing, Climbing, Cooking, Environmental Science, Fish & Wildlife Management, Fishing, Fly Fishing, Forestry, Geocaching, Hiking, Horsemanship, Insect Study, Leatherwork, Lifesaving, Mammal Study, Motorboating, Nature, Oceanography, Orienteering, Pioneering, Reptile & Amphibian Study, Rifle Shooting, Rowing, Scuba Diving, Shotgun Shooting, Small-boat Sailing, Soil & Water Conservation, Watersports, Whitewater, Wilderness Survival and Wood Carving. Sure, there are some that can be earned just as easily at home but, in my opinion, all of these just scream outdoors and camp. Sure, oceanography might not be a merit badge offered in Wisconsin, but could be a good summer camp badge for camps on the coasts. Cit in the Nation? Cit in the World? At camp? Why, to entice Star and Life Scouts to advance? Is that what summer camp should be about? Trails to First Class, getting Star and Life Scouts through Eagle-required Merit Badges? Now a camping committee is adding Communications? Well I suppose the market must be there for it then (how long would these merit badges be offered at camp if the SM's refused to let their Scouts sign up for them as a camp badge?). If that's the future of camp in the BSA, then they may as well sell the camps, rent college facilities, and use the classrooms, computer rooms, and dorm rooms as summer camp.

jtwestark posted this in the other thread as a reply before I could figure out what I was doing wrong to spin off my reply and I didn't want it to get lost (particularly since I'm about to reply). Sorry - not feeling very technically "ept" today (is "ept" the opposite of inept?). Yeah, youre right Calico - to a point. I don't have a problem with First Aid, Camping, E Prep, Wild Surv, and some others though. A camp environment is as good as any to teach these with the right program and staffers. I would hear about some monumental battles on the camping committee each year over this. We got stuck with alternating Cit Nation and World each year as a compromise for a long time. They added Communications this year, which really bothered me. I could half buy Personal Fitness a couple years ago, but even that was a stretch. Four required for Star (Camping, Swimming, First Aid, and ...) and three for Life really entices a kid looking to advance. I dont like it either and would frown upon the boys taking them and really try to talk them out of it to do as you say take some summer campish merit badges. Theres some ways you can twist the kids arm away from those, but largely that only works so much especially when we have tight classes and you may only get into two to begin. Plus when you look over what many of the fourth and fifth year guys already have many and what is offered, you lose much your argument.

I originally posted this elsewhere and thought it would be a good spin off topic: Emergency Preparedness Merit Badge offered at Summer Camp? Really??? I'd like to know why? Do we really need to offer every Merit Badge there is at Summer Camp? Does your summer camp offer the three Citizenship merit badges too? No wonder so many summer camps have a reputation of being a week long merit badge mill. In my opinion (and if you disagree, by all means try to change my mind), the merit badges offered at summer camp should be limited to those that summer camp is uniquely suited to offer like the rifle, shotgun and archery merit badges, the aquatic merit badges (try to earn rowing in winter), the nature merit badges (including astronomy) the outdoors merit badges (fishing, pioneering, orienteering, camping, wilderness survival, etc.) and the handicrafts (why do basketry and leatherwork at summer camp? They can help fill free time, and keep Scouts occupied when thunderstorms have closed the waterfront). If you're lucky enough to have a camp with it's own ranch, horsemanship. First Aid? Emergency Preparedness? The Citizenships? Leave it out of summer camp - they can be done year round much easier than small-boat sailing or reptile and amphibian study. If your argument is that Emergency Preparedness is an Eagle-required merit badge, save it - just because it's required for Eagle Scout shouldn't mean it has to be offered at summer camp if it's not a proper fit for a proper outdoor summer camp program.

Four responses so far and no one has mentioned the elephant in the room - guess it's up to me: Emergency Preparedness Merit Badge offered at Summer Camp? Really??? I'd like to know why? Do we really need to offer every Merit Badge there is at Summer Camp? Does your summer camp offer the three Citizenship merit badges too? No wonder so many summer camps have a reputation of being a week long merit badge mill. In my opinion (and if you disagree, by all means try to change my mind), the merit badges offered at summer camp should be limited to those that summer camp is uniquely suited to offer like the rifle, shotgun and archery merit badges, the aquatic merit badges (try to earn rowing in winter), the nature merit badges (including astronomy) the outdoors merit badges (fishing, pioneering, orienteering, camping, wilderness survival, etc.) and the handicrafts (why do basketry and leatherwork at summer camp? They can help fill free time, and keep Scouts occupied when thunderstorms have closed the waterfront). If you're lucky enough to have a camp with it's own ranch, horsemanship. First Aid? Emergency Preparedness? The Citizenships? Leave it out of summer camp - they can be done year round much easier than small-boat sailing or reptile and amphibian study. If your argument is that Emergency Preparedness is an Eagle-required merit badge, save it - just because it's required for Eagle Scout shouldn't mean it has to be offered at summer camp if it's not a proper fit for a proper outdoor summer camp program.

Despite "old wives tales" to the contrary, a 20 ounce cola isn't going to contribute to dehydration (it's actually the hydration equivalent of 13.3 ounces of water), and won't have enough of a diuretic effect to offset what, by my figuring, is the consumption of 3.125 GALLONS of water between 5am and 9:30am inclusive (one 2.5 quart canteen of water at 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 = 12.5 quarts = 3.125 gallons of water). One 20 ounce cola won't even effect a bodies electrolytes that significantly. Figuring with the additional water (at least 2 canteens) consumed during the battle, everyone consumed more than 3 1/2 gallons of water in one morning. In hot weather, 24 to 32 ounces of water per hour is more than enough for most people (that's one quart per hour or about one and a half gallons from 5-9:30). Based on what is posted, I'd suggest that part of the problem was too much water, without adequate electrolyte replacement/balancing during that time. The gatorade did you more good than all that water did. The water helped dilute your electrolytes. Whoever said that the coke negated 1.5 canteens of water is all wet. I'd also suggest that the biggest part of the problem was doing a battle re-enactment in heavy wool clothes in 90+ heat for two hours. Pre-hydration may help, but frequent hydration breaks, and removing some of the heavier clothing, is a bigger help. My first thought is heat stroke - caught in time, but heat stroke nonetheless. Even people who properly hydrate can get heat stroke. Your also better off drinking throughout an hour, and not all at once (that's how I interpret drinking a full canteen before leaving the line). Though 2.5 quarts is too much to drink in 1 hour, it would have been better to drink it a bit at a time throughout the hour. In hot weather, 8 ounces every 15 to 20 minutes should be plenty. (This message has been edited by calicopenn)

Please don't eat the mold. Unless it's a mold specifically used for the manufacturing process, it's not good for you. Mold isn't used in making Cheddar cheese - if you have mold on Cheddar cheese, cut the mold away and discard that bit.