CalicoPenn

If we're going to be bombarded with examples, can we at least be bombarded by realistic examples? A church steeple? Really?? How many church steeple restorations have been an Eagle Scout project? Heck, how many Eagle Scout projects have there been where the project is re-roofing a building? How many churches would want a rank amateur re-roofing their building? As for church steeples, this is a specialty service that most roofing contractors aren't qaulified for. Are you aware that most church steeple restorations are done by taking the steeple off the roof by crane, rebuildng the steeple at ground level, then resetting the steeple on the roof by crane? Do you know how much it costs just for the crane? Of course, now you might be tempted to ban the use of cranes by Scouts - don't bother - most states have laws that strictly govern the use of cranes - heck, a lot of states have strict regulations on when cranes can be driven to job sites, usually based on crane size - and don't even ask what kind of regulations cranes need to follow when they are in close proximity to an airport. That's the problem with these kinds of rules - they're often based on worst-case "what if's" that don't even apply in the first case.

I started my own lawn care business a long time ago and sold it within 2 years because I had secured a contract with a few local Mickie D's franchises that the buyer wanted to service. It would help to know what kind of area you're in. Rural? Small city Suburban? Big city Suburban? Urban? What's your potential client base and what's the economics of the area? What are you capable of doing? Are you going to be limited to lawn mowing, edging and maintenance or do you have the capability of tree and shrub removal, trimming and planting? Will you have the required licenses to commercially apply fertilizers, herbicides and insecticides? In most states now, you, as someone being paid as part of a business, can't just go to Home Depot and buy a few bags of fertilizer to spread on your clients lawn - you will need to take classes, pass and exam and get licensed. What is you client base? Residential? Small business? Commercial? Can you specialize? Residential work - SSScout has some great ideas. Suggestion - go visit local residential real estate firms and try to talk to the owner/GM (not a salesperson) - a lot of times, these folks are selling properties where the owner has moved and the property is vacant - and they need someone to maintain lawns. Go visit your local banks - see if they have foreclosed homes needing maintenance. Visit with local governments - in these days of foreclosures, many are now having to deal with cutting the lawns of foreclosed/vacant homes and sending the owners fines to do so - maybe you can be there go to guy to actually do the cutting rather than having to use there already stretched thin staffs. Those are things off the top of my head

First, what does the SM say about these requirements? Does he agree with the ASM and if so, why the preceived change from how it's been handled before? I can find nothing to support the notion that these requirements are all or nothing. Check out requirement 8. Will they really tell you that a Scout who demonstrates how to tie a bowline won't get credit for it unless he also ties a bandage for a sprained ankle and lists the 5 most common signals of a heart attack at the same time? I read these "subrequirements" as individual requirements that happen to be grouped together (such as 4A, 4B etc.) because of commonality, not because they need to be done at the same time. Again, check out requirement 8. Tying a knot and first aid don't seem to be related but there is also demonstrating basic rescue transport - and bowlines are often used in more advanced rescue skills. I'm firmly in the subrequirements can be done separately camp. Second, since I am in the subrequirements can be done separately, a reading of the requirements doesn't indicate that the "secured" food must then be usd to cook the meals (4E) so I don't see any reason (other than economics) that the lad couldn't go shopping this weekend and secure the ingredients needed for the menu and within his budget. If I were dad, I'd make sure it got done as part of the weekly grocery shopping (maybe as a separate charge so the reciept can be used as back-up - though I would make sure the Scout let the SM (ASM) know they were going to go shopping for the food) and just integrate the menu into the families meals for the week which would mitigate the economics I would think. I started to think that delegating to the grubmaster the task would be sufficient but I've changed my mind - the requirement is to secure the food, not secure or cause the food to be secured. I'm reading that as being the grubmaster and doing the buying for that menu. Again, I read it as buying the food for the menu, not for the specific meals. If he's already cooked the meals, he's done that requirement, now he just has to buy the food so see above.

I'm a bit disturbed at the turns this is starting to take. The OP, as an adult leader/chaparone on this campout, got wind of a planned hazing ritual and stopped it in it's tracks. Nothing but kudo's from me there - when it comes to hazing, which is a form of bullying, there is no excuse to crank up the bureaucracy to stop it - the first adult to learn of it/witness it, stops it cold. That's not the discipline portion - that's prevention. The OP then asks how he handles the discipline. It's been appropriately pointed out that this part of the issue should be laid square at the feet of the Scoutmaster. That's why he gets one of the most respected adult leader patches on his left sleeve (in lieu of the big bucks). It's up to the Scoutmaster to deal with it as s/he sees fit. That could include calling in the Committee Chair and COR for advice, or just informing them of what he's decided to make sure they've got his/her back. What's not appropriate, in cases like this, is sending it to the SPL/PLC. We're now talking about hazing, something that, had it actually occurred, would possibly have been reportable to the SE, especially if someone was injured (and spraying insect repellent in the face of an unsuspecting Scout certainly has the potential for injuring a Scout). I have no problem letting the SPL/PLC handle most disciplinary issues, but any issues that might just end up being reportable, or potentially leading a hacked off parent to contact the authorities if they aren't happy with how the unit handles it, should be dealt with by the adults. Boy-led does not mean that adults get to be laissez-faire about discipline and their responsibilities. What I'm most disturbed about is that we should consider turning away a youth with a directive to go see your SPL about this first and then your SM when they come to you with an issue like this. Maybe that's fine for most issues but not this time. This is one of those, hopefully rare, cases where a Scout should be encouraged to go right to the first adult they see - SM or not. This is not a case to go work a chain of command. I hope that no one ever decides not to take action because the planners might chicken out before they actually do something. And is it really neccessary to suggest that someone who has been volunteering to go on campouts become an ASM? Ardie, I'd follow the suggestions to leave it to the Scoutmaster who you've hopefully informed. The discipline portion of this act is his responsibility. You've done your part as a leader in camp. As a parent, however, you'll want to make sure your comfortable with the decision the SM has made, and if you're not, don't be afraid to ask for a friendly cup of coffee meeting so that s/he can explain the decision making behind it.

So I was just about to come to Richard's defense and point out that he's likely just the messenger, not the person who came up with this stuff, when I followed his link to Scouting magazine and learned that, lo and behold, he probably is one of the folks that has come up with these guidelines. I was particularly struck by this one quote from his Scouting Magazine response: "For projects like building a pinewood derby car or a service project involving construction, The BSA cannot support youth using power tools, as these activities are not currently set up to teach safety. Also, there is no current way to validate the qualification of adults who could supervise youth and power tools." Now I know there are a bunch of packs that provide workdays for Scouts and parents to work on their pinewood derby cars, but most pinewood derby cars are still being built by the Cub Scout and a member of his family (dad, mom, brother, uncle, grandfather, aunt, etc.). So when I read a sentence that says "there is no current way to validate the qualification of adults who could supervise youth and power tools", I can't help but read it as "we don't trust parents to teach their kids how to use power tools", even if that isn't an intended message. The worst part of this is that some of this makes a lot of sense. I've pulled folks from excavation accidents where proper bracing wasn't used, and the chances of anyone needing a trench greater than 4' in depth in the Scouts is pretty much close to zero, so why even bother carrying excavation safety equipment. The fall protection requirements make sense too - it's one thing to climb a ladder, it's a whole different story to stand and work on a ladder - I know we do it all the time at home, but its really not unusual to see homeowners being brought to the hospital during painting season or gutter cleaning season after they either fell off the ladder or, more likely, the ladder fell away under them as they were reaching for that on little spot that they didn't want to climb down and reposition the ladder for. Chainsaws operated by 16 year olds? Yeah, maybe not such a good idea, but keeping a 14 year old from using a gas powered lawn mower, most of which now include some form of dead man safety switch that shuts the motor down instantly when let go? Is it any wonder folks shake their heads?

Absolutely, for the ranks of Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class. I knew a scout who was a "Scout" for a year then had three BOR's in one night and was awarded the First Class Rank, and caught right up with his peers. He actually became the first of his crossover group to earn Star. Scouts go through ranks at their own pace, and this particular Scout decided that he wanted to concentrate on and master the skills in a way that made more sense to him (and I think it made a difference - he was better at the skills than many of the other Scouts). He learned all of the Knots and Lashings at one time, he did all of the First Aid requirements at one time (and earned the First Aid Merit Badge), he did all of the Swimming requirements at one time, he did all of the cooking requirements in one block of time - you get the picture - he took all the requirements and blocked them out in a way that was logical to him to complete. His Troop decided to have three separate BOR's - part of the reason is that in this Troop, the Board asks the scout to discuss the "four specific examples of how you have lived the points of the Scout Law in your daily life" which is part of the Scout Spirit requirement in all three ranks and the requirements do say that they should be a different 4 for each rank (I suppose if you have one BOR for all three, you could ask him to cite 12 examples) and part of it is because one of the methods is adult association and BORs are a great place for a different kind of Adult Association that one needs to experience. They had enough adults on hand so no one adult sat through more than 2 BORs and most only sat through 1. My suggestion - if you have enough adults on hand, split it into two BORs - each BOR having different adults in it. If you normally have six people in a BOR, split them into two groups of three. If you have four people on hand, rotate one out and the other in for a BOR of 3 people. But if you only have enough adults on hand for one BOR group, then that's fine too If the Scout would like to have separate BORs for each rank, then try to accomodate him - if you want to suggest that you do both BORs at the same time, he might just be happy with that too - in that case, I think I'd ask him to talk about 4 examples of living the points of the Scout Law early in the BOR then ask for a second four when the BOR is close to adjourning, rather than ask for all 8 at one time.

Just what we need - School Buses on the road during rush hour - and how do folks think this will be paid for? Do they really think teachers will work longer hours for the same pay? What kind of improvement in educational quality do they think will happen when the teachers and students are burned out by 4:00? Do these people really think parents will have less stress when they get home from work at the same time their children get gome from school? Obviously, these people aren't parents.

Let's not be bashing OSHA here - the document only mentions OSHA in reference to fall protection guidelines, not to any other part of the document. The way I read that is that the BSA has developed the guidelines for all the other stuff, like not being able to use a Radio Flyer (aka 4 wheel cart) if you're under the age of 14, and is using OSHA's fall protection standards rather than making up their own (and given the ridiculous BSA (not OSHA)rule against using a "4-wheel cart" (aka wagon) if you're under 14, I don't think any of us really wants the BSA to develop their own fall protection standards). I was initially surprised that they didn't cite OSHA on the excavation guidelines until it occurred to me that they are pretty much youth AND adults from working in any kind of excavations that would fall under excavation standards anyway so why bother mentioning OSHA. I can't wait until a bunch of 13-15 year old Eagle candidates start using this list to tell their parents they can't mow the lawn anymore because the BSA say's it isn't safe for them to do so.

So given the Scout's side of the story, it appears that the untrained BOR members have failed this Scout and their Troop. The lad had 2 PORs, completed all the requirements and had a successful SM Conference and the board still denied? First thing I would do is contact the CC & SM to see if they agree with the findings of the Board. As part of that conversation, you want to find out what the BOR's side of the story is, and you want to make sure that the reasons for the denial, what he needs to do to "improve" and how he can appeal has been put in writing and presented to the Scout. Best case scenario is that the SM is also unhappy with the decision of the BOR and is willing to back his Scout 100%. Let's take a look at why he should be: The board's reason for denial was: 1 as QM he had not cleaned out the storage room where the gear is kept. Just what does this mean, anyway? Does the room need a good sweeping? Is that part of the regular duties of the QM and did the lad know it was part of the duties? Was he told to do it and he didn't? How did the members of the BOR decide this was an issue? Did they go inspect the equipment room before or during the BOR? Big question - will they also hold the SPL responsible for not instructing his QM to make sure the equipment room was "cleaned out"? If someone thinks the room needs to be swept, they should mention it to the SM and let the SM deal with it - denying rank for this is, well, just plain petty. 2 He had not planned enough Troop meetings or campouts: In what part of the job description for QM or Librarian is there a requirements to plan Troop meetings and/or campouts? That's the PLC's job, under the SPL with guidance from the SM. Sounds to me like a committee that doesn't understand the program (not surprising since they are trained). 3 He should not ask for another board for 5 months. Either someone on the BOR thinks the lad is advancing too fast and/or is too young and is trying to slow down the advancement, or the BOR members are just not trained. If the SM is unhappy as well, it's his turn at bat - he has a friendly cup of coffee with the CC and tells the CC he expects that the Scout will be given a new BOR immediately with new BOR members who have an understanding of what the BOR process is or he will personally help the Scout and his parents appeal the decision to Council potentially embarrassing the Troop - and trust me when I say that District and Council folks do tend to take notice when a Scoutmaster is in opposition to his own Troop's committee on issues like these. As UC, you're pretty limited in what you can do - but even though you're limited in what you can do, you still have something powerful you can offer and that's the power to mediate this dispute, before it get's uglier. Start by contacting the COR, CC and SM and find out the rest of the story. Offer to assist in any way to get the committee members trained so that they are on the right track. If all else fails, offer to help the Scout, and any other Scout who wants to leave this troop find a new one.

You know what? As "just" a Parent, there is something very important you can do with this. I know you don't want to be "one of those" parents. I'm thinking you mean "one of those" parents who complain to the Scoutmaster rather than "one of those" parents that don't parent their children. Here's my suggestion - you go through the list of requirements with your son and ask him if he feels that he has completed the requirements. Ask him what he thinks he should do. If he tells you he thinks he should find another counselor and complete the merit badge on his own, you hug him and tell him you're proud of him and thank him for proving to you that YOU had done a good job as a father. If he tells you he thinks he should accept the badge, don't say a word, just look at him with a sad face, shake your head, and walk away. The most important thing here is DON'T SAY A WORD and WALK AWAY. Resist the temptation to tell him you're disappointed in him - if you don't say anything and just walk sadly away to let him think about it, he'll figure that out all on his own and will come to talk to you about making the right choice. But, I have a feeling he just might do the first thing and make you proud.

Have you asked the bus company if their insurance carrier could cover that million dollar rider per bus at your expense )how much is it)? Have you asked your volunteer CDL drivers if their insurance carriers will cover a million dollar rider for the event if you will pick up the cost?

This not so old old fogey still remembers a time when Twit was a perjorative and Twittering meant clucking about like a gaggle of hens. I think the obvious choice is Lisabob.

I've never seen a ceremony for a new Troop flag so be creative. Since it's a new Troop, you might have the institutional head and/or the chartered organization rep on hand to present the Troop with it's new flag. Maybe do this at a Court of Honor or other meeting with parents in attendance, before doing the opening flag ceremony. The IH/COR could welcome the new Troop, hand the SPL (Note - the SPL (or most senior lad if you don't have an SPL) and not the CC/SM or other adult - I think symbolically that's important - it reinforces for everyone, the Chartering Organization, the Adult Leaders, the Parents and the Scouts that the Troop is for the boys) the folded Troop flag, who then walks down the aisle, mounts it to it's pole and then leads the Opening Flag Ceremony with their brand new flags. Do you have a local American Legion Hall or VFW? Since you have a new Troop flag, it's likely you have a new US flag as well - maybe they could provide a color guard to do your "first" flag ceremony with the new flags, presenting the flags to the Troop. Do you have friendly relations with some Troops in the area? Maybe one of them can present the flag, welcoming the new Troop into the fold. Here's an idea - ask the boys what they think would be a good ceremony.

Basement, I actually threw Burning Man in there in the same light-hearted spirit that Tampa Turtle was displaying - I figure it is just about on par with bringing lads to Rio and then South Beach, without needing a passport. Of course I wouldn't take Boy Scouts to Burning Man. A Venturing Crew on the other hand.... (This message has been edited by calicopenn)

I'll bite: A Scout is: Trustworthy: Shriners Loyal: American Legion Helpful: Lions Club Friendly: AFS International (arranges exchange student visits) Courteous: Toastmasters Kind: Random Acts of Kindness Foundation Obedient: Fraternal Order of Police Cheerful: USO Thrifty: Goodwill Industries Brave: Mountain Rescue Association (and other SAR groups) Clean: Save our Beach (and other beach cleanup organizations) and Reverent: Kiwanis

Sea kayaking the Maine Island Trail Rafting the entire length of the Mississippi River - Huck Finn style Bicycling around Lake Michigan Being the first BSA contingent at Burning Man

I'm surprised no one's ever complained about the Flaming Arrow Patrol since the Dale decision.

I don't believe Campfire USA considers themselves a "scouting" organization. Indeed, one of the hallmarks of a "scouting" organization, according to both the WOSM and the WOGGGS, is spirituality and the importance of a higher power - Campfire BSA is wholly secular in nature. BTW, the AHG site never makes the claim that it is a scouting program. That comes from an enthusiastic volunteer but it's pretty easy to see that there are so many similiarities in how the programs operate, that someone could call it a scouting program. So folks need some kind of definition of what a "scouting" program is? Then I direct you to the aformentioned WOSM and WOGGGS - both are keepers of the "Scouting movement" and their definitions are remarkably similar. But the question is, why wouldn't it be a scouting program? I would certainly call it a scout-like program, and there are others out there that are scout-like but aren't scouting programs (example - Campfire USA). So what keeps AHG from being a "Scouting Program"? One of the core principles of a Scouting Program, according to the WOSM and WOGGGS is that Scouting is open to ALL people regardless of Creed, Nationality etc. Unfortunately, since one of their key operating provisions is that AHG subscribes to a Triune (and Christian) God, it leaves people out with other creeds. In other words, no Jews or Muslims need apply. I am not stating that is a negative I really don't care who they admit and don't admit - it's just what is - and since that's the case, since they aren't open to other Creeds - they just aren't part of the Scouting Movement. But they still fill a role, and as our forum communities biggest booster of AHG right now mentioned on another thread, he daughter's excited and loving it - and isn't that enough? Is it really that important to call it a Scouting Program, or not a Scouting Program? Can't we just welcome it into the fold as another Youth Program??

Ok - you asked for the "Best". There's only one answer to that question: Thermarest Dreamtime. It combines a 3" isotonic memory foam pad with a removable .5" self-inflating pad (what most of us think of as a Thermarest) in a soft microfiber cover. This is for car camping only - it's heavy - the large size is 6 lbs 10 oz, the XL (talk about luxury!) is 7 lbs 15 oz. It's also expensive - from Cascade Designs (makers of Thermarest) the Lg is $189.98 and the XL is $209.95. Now I'm a pretty large guy - most of the time I use a Thermarest Basecamp size Large - it's a 2" self-inflating pad - and I've found it to be very comfortable. Compared to the Dreamtime, it's quite reasonable in price - $69.95 for regular, $79.95 for large and $99.95 for XL. As for how they hold up? I still occasionally use my full length Thermarest I bought in 1981 (when I started geezerhood at age 19 because I could never get comfortable on the ground) and my 3/4 length folding Thermarest (folds lengthwise down the center before rolling to make a smaller little package) I bought in 1985. Sometimes, if I'm feeling particularly geezerlike - I'll put my original Thermarest on top of my Basecamp - for that extra thickness. Oh, and dollars to donuts Brew and Qwazse sleep on their sides not their backs - would be the most likely sleeping position for their hips to hurt (I'm a side sleeper myself, my back never hurts after sleeping, but I sure can feel the ground through my hips sometimes - usually means I've gone too many days without reinflating my mattress).

Let's go right to the guide: "Once a registered and approved counselor has passed a Scout on requirements for a merit badge, it cannot be taken away. Nor does unit leadership have the authority to retract approval, or take the badge away." I can think of only one case in which I would refuse to award a merit badge: 1) If I could prove that fraud was involved - that a Scout has forged an MB Counselor's signature (not getting the SM's signature in advance is not fraud but forging the SM's signature on the card would be). Important key here - the ability to PROVE fraud was involved - if I suspect fraud, but can't prove it, the benefit of the doubt favors the Scout. I was tempted to suggest two cases with the second being a person who wasn't registered as an MBC as below: 2) If the person who signed the blue card as the Merit Badge Counselor was not a registered Merit Badge Counselor. Only a Registered MBC can sign the blue cards (for most summer camp staffs, it is common practice for the department head to be the registered MBC for that department's merit badges and for him/her to sign all of the applications, even is s/he wasn't the person doing the actual badge work with the Scout). However, checking the guide again, it has an interesting little note: "Even if a merit badge counselor were found to be improperly documented, it would be a rare occasion when a Scout would be penalized for the mistake of an adult volunteer." Reading this confirms a thought I had nagging at the back of my mind the whole time based on my often-stated view of advancement and giving youth the advantage of the benefit of the doubt and that would be, as SM, I would work with that unregistered MBC to get them registered, get a new blue card signed after registration, and welcome a new MBC to the fold. It's tempting to say that if the Scout hasn't gotten the Scoutmaster's approval to work on the badge first that the badge could be refused but, and I'm going by the book here, the new guide to advancement makes clear that if the application is signed as earned by a registered Merit Badge Counselor, then the badge has been earned and cannot be refused. The guide says nothing about what happens if the application hadn't been signed by the SM in advance and since there is an absence of direction in that case, you have to go with what rules have been presented, and the overriding rule is that once a badge has been signed off by a registered MBC, the badge is earned - that's not a "technical" answer - that is the only answer. If the issue is a missing SM's signature, you have a conversation with the Scout about being Scoutlike and being Trustworthy and Loyal enough to pass it by the SM first - and make a note of who the counselor was so you can have a conversation with the District Advancement Chair about possibly reminding the MBC's to check to make sure the Scoutmaster signature is present on the blue card when meeting with Scouts. I'd also make sure to take into account the circumstances - if it's a buddy of a Scout who had no intention of earning the badge but went along with a Scout to a counselor as his two-deep buddy, and decided since he was there, may as well complete it too, or a Scout who had an unexpected opportunity to earn a merit badge while on a family trip, I'd cut the lad a little bit more slack. But really, if you turn it down because you didn't initially sign it, there is nothing to prevent the Scout from getting a signed blue card, going right back to the same counselor (you can make recommendations, you can't insist they use a specific counselor if the Scout has a counselor in mind) and getting the card re-signed by his MBC. You weren't very forthcoming as to your situation so it's hard to know what fits. However, a fairly common situation is a Scout coming to you with a signed MBC and you, as the leader, somehow "knowing" that the Scout didn't meet all the requirements, or can't duplicate a requirement that the MBC said he did for you. There is a simple answer to that - and yes, life isn't fair so deal with it - there is no retesting of Merit Badge requirements at the Troop level before a Scout is awarded the badge - there is no Board of Review for a merit badge before a Scout is awarded the badge - there is simply" Once registered MBC has signed the blue card that the merit badge has been completed, the merit badge has been earned and awarded - the only thing left for the Troop to do is enter it on the Scout's advancement records, and present him with the merit badge. Oh, and I disagree a bit with dg98 on accepting merit badges on transfer or from a parent - I wouldn't have any reservations at all - the guide specifically states that a Scout can use a counselor from another council if he wishes, provided they were registered, and it's usually not that difficult to find out if they are if you know what council it is and want to take the time (and really, who wants to do all that work). A Scout transfering to your unit from another council? It's be pretty rare for a Scout to transfer into your unit with a blue card signed by an MBC that hadn't already been given the merit badge - we don't make transfer Scouts redo the badges (rank or merit) he's already earned when he transfers. As for parents? If they are a registered MBC for specific MBs and have signed the blue cards, then regardless of "reservations" one might have, the merit badge is earned, just as if the MBC wasn't a parent. No ifs or buts. To summarize all that? Unless you can prove fraud, then you never refuse to award a merit badge when presented with a MBC signed blue card - the award is already earned and awarded.

Now that the thread has been resurrected, I can comment on something that Stosh said: "Too many people over-think cast iron. It is not that difficult. You do not need to do a batch of deep-fries or donuts to season a dutch oven." Not saying it's wrong - you certainly don't HAVE to do a batch of deep-fries or donuts to season a dutch overn - but that misses the point, I think. Sure, we don't have to do it that way, but it sure is tasty!!!

Twocub, I wonder if a version of the following answer to the newly crossed dad would negate a need for a cite: "In this Troop, OWLS does not substitute for IOLS. We require anyone who wants to be an ASM to take IOLS, whether they took OWLS or not. If you took OWLS, you'll be a little ahead of the game, but the programs are so different that this Troop does not rely on OWLS training".

Well, Brew, to continue to prove it true: "4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?" If memory serves, I'm pretty sure that if you slog through the archives, you'll find this very thing has been posted and commented on before and you know what that will make you, right?: "1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again." (or close enough) BTW - welcome to the forums! And don't worry, we're Scouts/Scouters - old jokes are standard in Scouting - I've heard the same campfire skits for the last 40 years.

Stosh, I was pretty much avoiding the flag code in this case since it doesn't really talk about how a civilian color guard should carry and hold a flag. I answered based on a belief that most people get their information on how things are "s'posed to be" from watching military color guards.

I'm not sure that Romney can make a stand on the economy much either - he had a lackluster track record on the economy when he was Governor of Massachussets, and for most people, the economy means jobs, and Romney will have a tough row to hoe with his business record of shutting down companies and shipping jobs overseas. Regardless of whether he personally did so, or it was his company, most people will still equate the two together. I'm not sure that "I like firing people" and thinking it's humorous that daddy closed a plant in Michigan and sent the jobs to Wisconsin just before running for governor of Michigan is going to go over very well with people struggling to find a job. Does he have a chance? I think it depends on whether he can energize Republicans to actually come out and vote. Republican's haven't shown they're very eager to vote in the primaries (the numbers of voters actually voting in the primaries are dismal) and some polling suggests that there is a fairly significant number of Republicans considering just staying home this November. I also suspect we're going to see a lot of Democrats who didn't turn out in 2010 flocking to the polls in November to try to stop the damage the tea party has inflicted since 2010 with Republicans not being as enthused for tea party candidates anymore. I think that this year, we're going to see a reversal of the recent trend towards record voting numbers in Presidential election years and we'll see fewer people at the polls this year.