CalicoPenn

Oh - and Bri - welcome to the forum - I don't mean to be a downer - I did have an awesome time for 4 years as a Cub Scout Day Camp counselor.

I had a great time as the first out-of-council CIT for the camp I went to summer camp as a Scout. I was hired as the Trading Post director the next year for my Council's summer camp. I was fired with two weeks left to go when someone on the camp accreditation inspection team learned I was the son of someone he didn't like and blackmailed the Camp Director (who was also the Council's Field Director) to fire me in order to get the A-rating. Didn't matter that my inventory loss to that point was less than $10 when the average for the previous 10 years was $500, and that all of the Trading Post's records were up to date. The Camp Director even stopped by our house after camp was over to apologize and tell us what happened. He also mentioned that the Trading Post lost $300 in inventory the final two weeks. This was the first time I experienced politics in the workplace - and it made a hell of an impression on me - I don't put up with it now. So yeah, not so much fun for me.

Like today, there isn't much of a National/Council policy threshold (and back in the day the National/Council threshold was likely even lower - there were a lot more Scouting units in delinquency centers that there are today) - it's more of a local unit threshold. I'm sure there were units out there where they had a lie and you're out rule - but I believe they would be in the minority - Units that wanted to make a point about how bad lying is would hold up Scout's advancement - not usually kick them out. I think what's sticking in folk's craw here is the application of school-based zero-tolerance policies to non-school activities, with an additional sub-set of trying to grasp the notion that Scouting can be a school-based activity. Hang around long enough and you can get a sense of where folks fall on the political scale - look around enough and I think you'll find that zero tolerance policies in general and as a whole are equally disliked by most Scouters, no matter where on the political scale one falls. Somewhere floating about is a thread on a Scout who was suspended from school for having an axe in the trunk of his car after a weekend of camping out with the Troop because the school district had a zero tolerance policy (the lazy way out) instead of taking each incident on a case-by-case basis. Pretty much everyone sided with the Scout and thought the School District needed new leadership. We know school districts love zero tolerance policies but they seem to be pretty much universally disliked by everyone not in the educational field. The thing is that even zero-tolerance policies (or as I call them - zero-brain usage policies) have limits. Sure, there are places where a student on a sports team caught drinking, even with family present and parental permission (in those states that allow it) can be kicked off the team - sports are an extracurricular activity and it's considered a privilege to play. But you can't kick them out of school (at least a public school). You can't even give them detentions. Even if a unit has a "zero-tolerance" policy on some things, it should be tempered with reasonableness. If on a Scouting trip a group of boys ask if they can free-climb a certain set of bluffs and does it anyway if the SM says no - that's blatant disobedience - but the key point here is that it occurs on a Scouting activity and the Scoutmaster actually has some control. In the case of camping on their own with their parent's permission, the Scoutmaster's/Troop's permission is not needed if it is not a Scouting activity. If a Patrol asks if they can count the trip as a Scouting outing and he say's no, that's the end of the matter as far as the Troop goes. Since it can't be counted as a Scouting activity, it is not a Scouting activity and the Troop has no jurisdiction over it. As long as they don't try to sneak it in as a countable camp experience later, there is no disobedience to the Scoutmaster - they've asked if they can go camping as a patrol - they Scoutmaster said no - so they didn't camp as a patrol, they camped as a group of friends with parent permission. Even zero tolerance policies need to meet a reasonableness standard. Courts don't like overreach - Alcohol use is illegal and not conducive to sports? Fine. Setting a policy that athletes can't go to Disney World with their family? Pull out the checkbook.

Unless there is illegal acts or rekless endangerment of others invoiced, I don't believe that we should be booting Scouts of of units.

Gee, I don't know - it makes sense to me. Boys can join when they're in first grade (and most boys who start first grade at age 6 are likely to be turning age 7 at some point in the school year) OR at 7 years of age (I take this to mean boys not being educated in a standard grade style school, including homeschooled children). Now if this rule were in place when I was a Cub Scout, I would have been joining at age 5.

Interesting - I thought that vestige of the old days had long since died out. Unless the funds are being used to help the boys pay for re-registration, or the patrols for food or other sundries, then I see no further purpose in it. If the funds are just going in to the general fund and disappearing (aka spent on troop stuff) I would eliminate it. That being said, there has been a tradition in Scouting for weekly dues, kept track of by the Patrol Scribe who informs the Troop Scribe who has paid (up to the boys to decide if the reporting is weekly or at minimum monthly. If you collect that much, then I think the Troop would be wise to allocate that money to a Scout's registration and any thing left over, allow them to draw on it for summer camp trading post expenses, or some such thing. Treat it like a Christmas Club account.

@@Jason. Ask Andy has this great list of what a Scout has to get through to become an Eagle Scout that I wish I can find. It talks about the number of nights he's gone camping, the leadership positions he takes, the service projects he's done, the requirements he's had to do from Tenderfoot to Eagle Scout. Scouts to get busy with other things as they get older. Sports and Band suck up time. Wait until they start to work! If this Scout has met all the other requirements and is working on his project, and you know he's been busy with sports and band, then I would hope that would be taken into consideration. Given your announced bias against this Scout, I hope you do the honorable and Scout-like thing and decline if you are asked to be on his BOR.

Two ordeals - one in late Spring (early June - to help get the summer camp in shape) and one in fall (usually late September or early October to do work at the local camp). OA Service projects at summer camp, once a week, 4 hours in one afternoon - participants invited to OA ice cream social. Winter banquet. Fundraising Haunted Camp every year at very local Methodist camp. Each Chapter does their own call-outs.

Get that last Merit Badge completed and make sure the Council starts the BOR under disputed circumstances process.

Now we're getting in to another part of the territory - enforcement. There are a lot of things on the books that the BSA doesn't "enforce". They've banned laser tag but what's stopping units from going laser tag? Words in a book? If you don't write laser tag in on your tour permit, how will the BSA know that you took the unit laser tagging? There are a lot of I can't count the number of professional-type folks I've met who know the rules but figure it's ok as long as they are there. What it really boils down to, I suppose - is whether you're going to follow the rules or not. Though it looks like these rules are there to stop people from having fun, the reality is that they are there to limit the BSA's liability if something goes wrong and to transfer that liability elsewhere. It's a way for the BSA to say "We banned Bubble Ball but we don't have the resources to police the units violating the rules - if someone got hurt, it's not our responsibility - it's a banned activity - that unit broke the rules - that unit is responsible".

@@Krampus - water gun usage was prohibited long before 2015 - it was a prohibited activity back when I went to Camp School for Cub Scout Day Camps back in 1981 - and it was prohibited for the exact reason I just explained. Laser Tag was prohibited as soon as Laser Tag started to become a thing back in the early 1980's. Nerf Gun fights were prohibited as soon as Nerf developed Nerf Gun fights. The BSA's position on these things has always been consistent - for a very long time.

So out of curiosity, have you spoken to those older Scouts who seem to be deferring to OA Activities vs. Troop Activities? Have you asked them why? This is really not a new dynamic - things like this happened back in the 70's and 80's too . I spoke with a Scoutmaster at an Ordeal weekend when I was a Vice Chief who had the same complaint - I took time to informally chat with a couple of the Scouts he mentioned by name and they mentioned that the unit programming was getting boring. The Scoutmaster didn't think to ask the Scouts and the Scouts didn't know how to talk to the Scoutmaster about it. I think that's a real shame - and I suspect that's a lot more common than we think. Heck, I was only 20 and I knew that was a problem. There is nothing in this thread that is anything new - the same complaints were made in the 70's and the 80's. Sash and Dash happened back then (though in my Lodge it was usually Brotherhood and Dash because we had a limited Lodge flap - you got one for Ordeal and one for Brotherhood - and that was it - you couldn't buy them, and if you traded or sold one, you were no longer welcome in the Lodge). Scoutmasters questioned the usefulness. Adults struggled with whether to join or not. Scouts didn't get elected in to the Lodge by their fellow Scouts (because "it's a popularity contest"). Some lodges were stronger than others. Northeast Illinois Council and Northwest Suburban Council had very strong lodges with great lodge and chapter programming. Others had great lodge programs but poor chapter programs. No Lodge was the same. I can say with confidence that the strongest Troops in my District and in the Council were those that had good participation in the Lodge. My Troop was always heavily involved in the OA - in fact, the Explorer Post that spun off of the Troop specialized in Native American Dancing and while not an official OA Dance Team, was the go to Dance Team for the Lodge. In fact, in one 7 year period, 12 folks from the Troop became Vigil Honor Members. We only get out of the OA what we put in to it. If the OA is suffering, it is suffering from the same reasons that the rest of the BSA is suffering from. I have seen Council executive completely ignore and neglect the OA. I have heard of some Council executives who want to just drown their Lodges in a bathtub and do away with it in their Council. I have seen Lodges fall apart when the Council sells off the home camp. But the OA still thrives in other places. - and that's something that can still be built on.

My gosh, the kids in 8th grade were right - we are all a bunch of nerds.

My gosh - after reading all of these complaints about how the fun is being sucked out of Scouting I can't help but wonder how deprived of fun you all must have been back in the days that your were Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts - back before there were such things as Bubble Ball, and Laser Tag, and Water Parks. I don't know about any one else but I had lot's of fun in the late 60's and in the 70's as a Cub Scout and as a Boy Scout. The adult leaders back then found more than enough in the program to keep us occupied and satisfied. For some reason, they also had a much better sense of the progression of skills in Scouting. Yes, Cub Scouts didn't do Klondikes. That didn't mean a Cub Scout Pack couldn't do a winter hike at a local forest preserve and try to make bacon and eggs in a paper bag. Cub Scouts didn't build pioneering projects - but we all knew we could do that in Boy Scouts. There was always a sense that the adventure continues with each move - Wolves and Bears did different activities but in Webelos, you got to do just that much more, then in Boy Scouts, well wow! Klondike, and winter camping, and camporees, and rifle shooting, and canoeing. Bike Safety in Cub Scouts changed to Bicycle Trips in Boy Scouts. It kept you coming for more. Even in Boy Scouts - at 11, 12, & 13 looking forward to 14 and weeklong backpacking and high adventure trips. Weekend canoe trips became week long excursions in the Boundary Waters. - No Laser Tag Required. My father was instrumental in convincing our Council to allow weekend camping for Webelos to pilot for National. He was instrumental in expanding that to Webelos Camporees. With hindsight, I look back and sometimes wish he hadn't done so - I know the intention was to give Webelos a taste of things to come in the Boy Scouts, but unfortunately it metastatisized into the entire Cub Scout camping program with family camping. I think that was a mistake - with nothing to look forward to, now we have to entertain the Cub Scouts - and since they've already been there done that, we now need to entertain the Boy Scouts too. Is tossing water balloons funs? Sure, for many people. But how is it any more fun that having giant plastic pools filled with water located in spots on a big field where Cubs (and Scouts) can get a big honking "natural" sponge soaked in water to toss at other people? A lot easier to clean up (which means less risk of leaving broken balloons on the field for birds and animals to eat - or is Leave No Trace just a barrier to fun?), a lot easier to set up - and frankly, the only limitation is how long the Cubs & Scouts can go without getting tired - it's much easier to refill the pool that it is to fill another 100 water balloons. Are water guns fun? Sure, for many people - but the BSA doesn't ban it because it's unsafe - they ban it, and Laser Tag for the same reason - it doesn't support the gun safety message the BSA has been delivering for decades - always assume a gun is loaded and never point a gun at anyone. The BSA doesn't teach military shooting -it teaches sport shooting - shooting at targets (and no human shapes allowed - that's not because someone is being mean), shooting at clay pigeons. Yeah, yeah - I know the arguments - but water guns and laser tag guns and paint ball guns aren't real guns - go ahead and tell that to the mother of a 12-year old boy shot in a park in Ohio who had a not real gun. It doesn't matter if they're real guns, because it's not about the guns - it's about the behavior - and the behavior being taught is how to hunt down and shoot other people. That's why they are banned. I suppose the big question in my mind is are we so lacking in imagination as adults, or so lazy, that we have to offer everything that's out there in order to keep the Scouts entertained? Is not the program and the advancement and all of the things that actually fit in to the program not enough that we have to keep adding more and more and more and more? Is there no room in our worldviews anymore to be able to compartmentalize things? To be able to say Bubble Ball is a fun activity but it's not a Scouting activity? To be able to say that Go-karting is a fun activity for families but it's not a Scouting activity? To be able to say feel free to have water gun fights with your friends on a hot summers day but in Cub Scouts, we do soaked sponge tosses? (And I have yet to see any Cub Scout, or staff member, or non-cranky parent, not get caught up in that and have a blast). It occurs to me as I've written this that there's an awful lot of things that are done in Scouts that don't get done outside of Scouts in any big numbers. How many people here think their Scouts and Scout's families know where the nearest Orienteering course is, and partake of it when not in Scouts (and I can't find anything that says Orienteering is not allowed in Cub Scouts - are you sure it's just that the Map and Compass belt loop and activity pin has been discontinued?). How many people here do pioneering projects on a regular basis, outside of Scouts, just for fun? If the saviors of Scouting is going to be Bubble Ball and Laser Tag and Halo tournaments, why even bother with anything else. It's not going to be the three G's that destroy Scouting - it's going to be the lack of focus on the actual program, and what that program is all about.

Welcome to the forum! The map and compass activities were part of the "Cub Scout Academics" track which has been discontinued and many of the various requirements have been assigned to new places within the new activity tracks. Hopefully, you can figure out something to do with these things rather than let them collect dust in a storage closet or find a home in a landfill.

@@vumbi - personal contact

Let's look at it another way - if they don't charge the fee to cover their expenses, and can't get corporate donations to cover those expenses - who is going to pay to cover those expenses? They don't go away just because they don't charge for them - the answer should be obvious - the Scouts pay for it with higher Jamboree fees. Maybe the average increase is only a dollar or two per Scout - but why should a Scout have to pay for what is essentially an advertising opportunity for those faiths? Now maybe an individual church might find it difficult to raise $1,450 for a 10x10 set-up, but I find it hard to believe that the Catholic Church, the Southern Baptists, the Methodists, the Lutherans, etc. etc. can't find $1,450 in their annual budgets for this.

Not to make light of this, because it's good to be reminded of it but I'm going to go ahead and change my mind on bubble ball. Or at least the bubble part - I can't think of a better way to keep Scouts from being bitten by mosquitos than wrapping them in a giant bubble cocoon of plastic.

@@skip I would choose option 1 and option 5. Not sure how many years you've been doing The Sun Run but if it's over two, you've pretty much solidified the intent of the charity event in the minds of the people that donate to it - To suddenly decide to choose your own unit as the charity could be seen as a betrayal by those who donate. So what's this option 5? Option 5 is go find a few other fundraisers that you can do to raise funds for the Canada trip - and think about doing multiple small ones rather than one big one. Car washes, or if really ambitious truck washes (ummm, sorry - lorry washes); pancake breakfasts, things like that.

Which is why you can park one in the middle of the busiest plaza in Cardiff to refuel and no one notices it.

Well gee Stosh, How is that Pastor supposed to up her donations from her congregation to support missions in Ethiopia if you convince all the parent's kids that there are as many poor people in their community as there are in Africa? I'm guessing your District doesn't let you do FOS presentations either.

I see two questions here. Pro's as volunteers is one - and what do you do with someone who may be looking out for themselves rather than their charges (because it's not just professionals that think that way). First question about pro's being volunteers - I'd first make sure that the Council doesn't ban it and if they don't do they have any other requirements. I would think on a Council should have is that a Pro cannot be a volunteer in any unit they serve as a Pro. For instance, if they're a DE, they can't serve as a volunteer in any unit in their District. They could serve in a unit in a neighboring district. If they're the Exploring Exec, they can serve in Packs and Troops but not in any exploring units. If the Council doesn't have that requirement, I'd make it my personal requirement. The second question sounds more difficult but I think it's easier. If you know that this is the reputation of a person, I wouldn't put them in top leadership positions at fire - no SM or CC position - start them off as ASMs or Committee Members and let them show what they can and will do. Let them earn becoming SM by faithfully serving as an ASM first.

Before I answer this question with my opinion on what a BOR can fail a Scout for, let's be clear that it doesn't apply to the OP because this is a case of a Troop Committee voting to even hold BORs, not failing a Scout at a BOR, and that is something a Committee just doesn't have the authority to do. As for when can a Scout be failed at a BOR - my opinion is that it should rarely happen - like less than 1% of all BOR's of all Troops in the USA and internationally combined rare. As Stosh so eloquently put it, when a BOR is questioning a Scout's ability to advance, they are questioning the judgment of the Scoutmaster as well. The purpose of the Board of Review is to nominally review that the Scout has met all the requirements and a Scoutmaster shouldn't be sending a Scout to a BOR unless the Scout has met all of the requirements. The best BOR's are a review of the Troop's program, and the Scout's experience. If a PL, SPL, Instructor, Troop Guide, JASM, ASM, or SM has signed off that the Scout has learned to tie a Square Knot, I don't need to test the Scout to see if he has learned to tie a Square Knot. What I want to know is if the Scout is having fun. I want to know what the Scout thinks the best part of the last campout was. I want to know what he doesn't like about the last campout. I want to know what he likes best about the Troop and what he thinks can be improved. I'm hoping a Scout has things to brag about - not just to the BOR but to his friends that aren't Scouts. I want to know that the Troop is delivering exciting activities that he can talk about at school on Monday after a weekend camping trip. That's what a BOR is for - it's more to review the Troop and a Scout's experiences with it, than it is to review the Scout. What can a Scout be failed for? For now, flat out expressing that he's an atheist - and that's about it. I'm waiting the day when even that is no longer a disqualifier, when we all finally grow up as a society and realize that atheists and agnostics are as good and as bad as citizens as everyone else in this country and the answer of how can a boy fail a BOR is "NEVER".

@@Krampus - yeah, I understand that desire to make sure the Scout isn't taking the lazy way out - but then I wonder if a Scoutmaster insisting that Scouts can only do service projects with the Troop because he doesn't trust them to do what they said they would do when getting approval from their Scoutmaster for their service project(s) is a) allowing the Scouts to live the first point of the Scout Law (A Scout is Trustworthy) and b) is living the first part of the Scout Law him/herself? Like I said, it's a technically correct answer - but it just doesn't pass the Scout-like test for me. Maybe I would feel different if there were multiple opportunities for Troop service projects - preferable monthly, at least quarterly) but I sure would be pretty angry as a parent if the Troop only did Service Projects in May and August and my son could only get credit for Troop service projects and he earned his Star in June - he would have to, by the Scoutmaster's policy, wait well over the time in rank requirements to earn Life.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Scout Spirit. Here's a direct quote from the BSA's own advancement guide: We can say, however, that we do not measure Scout spirit by counting meetings and outings attended. It is indicated, instead, by the way he lives his life. If, in fact, it's actually a problem with meeting the "since joining" activity requirement, The BOR may be correct - but it has nothing to do with Scout Spirit. If it has to do with a Troop's participation requirement, that requirement must be spelled out - in advance - to everyone. It has nothing to do with Scout Spirit. I am curious about something - the Troop Committee's vote. Are you sure the Troop Committee took a vote to deny a BOR, or was it a BOR that denied advancement until one more camping trip was completed? It's a rather big difference - If your son did, in fact, sit for a BOR and they denied him advancement for this issue, the BOR may have acted correctly and just got terminology wrong. If the Troop Committee gets together and votes on when Scouts can have a BOR - then they are not only doing it wrong, they are wandering through a canyon maze, they are so far off true north. Committees don't have a say on whether a Scout can have a BOR - the SM tells the Committee that they need to convene a BOR for Scouts A, B & C and the Committee convenes the BOR. They don't vote on whether to have them or not. If the Troop Committee took a vote about whether to convene a BOR, and the Scoutmaster sat back and didn't raise a stink, then my suggestion for you would be to run - run and find a new Troop - because you can't fix stupid like that.