CalicoPenn

Can anyone imagine selling road flares door-to-door these days? How many people really know what a road flare is anymore? How many stories about Scouts being detained on suspicion of carrying a terrorism device do you think would be generated?

I would just as soon get rid of the up and down arrows altogether - I've never paid attention to them and it doesn't add to the discussion. Agree with me? Tell me why. Disagree with me? Tell me why. Don't like the direction a thread is going? Tell us why. Using the arrows is just a form of passive-aggressiveness that allows people to think they're participating when they really aren't.

Adult thinking.....think like a 12 year old - more likely they got it from Lara Croft: Tomb Raider

We had a Scout burn water. He was actually boiling a pan of water on a stove (a real electric burner stove - winter camping in a cabin) and didn't pay attention enough to realize that he had removed some saran wrap from something, laid it out over the burner, and didn't take it off the burner when he put the pot of water on. He was possibly the most scatterbrained cook our Troop ever had (and his father, a professional firefighter, was a very good firehouse cook). He once made blueberry pancakes that came out all green. He didn't drain the blueberries - just dumped them, juice and all, in to the batter. No one in his patrol wanted to eat them - so some of us more senior Scouts gave up our breakfasts to his patrol and ate the pancakes - and darn it if they didn't taste pretty darn good.

I remember selling Olin road flares door-to-door too. Never sold fireworks but all the Cub Scout Packs and Brownie Dens (?) would coordinate with the local Jaycees to canvas the entire city of 20K people to collect for that years fireworks display. The Jaycees did that for 5 years until some grand poobah or other decided that it would be less risky to send the older Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts out to collect instead. Never underestimate the power of cute kids versus gangly pre-teens and teenagers - collections dropped by almost half that year - the next year it was back to Cub Scouts and Brownies going door-to-door. Worked well until the Jaycees folded.

To Science and Beyond!!!!!

The panhead patrol is set up 100 meters that way

I don't know if going co-ed will be an improvement to the program. I also do not know if going co-ed will not be an improvement to the program. I don't know if a single-sex environment is better. I also do not know if a single-sex environment is worse. I do recognize that a single-sex environment may have value. I also recognize that a co-ed environment may have value. I do now know if one environment is better than the other, and if so by how much, or if they are both the same. For some folks, it may be a cultural thing (whatever that's supposed to mean). I am not advocating for co-ed Scouting. I am also not advocating or defending single-sex Scouting. I am just being open-minded about the possibility and the potential of Co-ed Scouting. If Scouting remains single-sex, I am just fine with it. I am, however, willing to challenge the tropes and memes about how awful Scouting would be and how much would need to change if co-ed Scouting were to take place. I have no problem challenging anyone's assertion that if girls were allowed in to Boy Scouts, that the program would have to change. I have yet to see anyone give any actual examples of what would have to change in the program. Don't just tell us the program would have to change (and again, remember to keep program separate from administration - I readily admit that there will likely need to be some administrative changes), tell us exactly what you think you would have to change in the program - and why it would need to change.

Interesting question - and in fact many Americans do give their guns names - there is even an article in the American Rifleman from June 14, 2011 titled "Why Do We name Our Guns". What may be unique is insisting that they all need to be named after a female. While it seems to be traditional to name machinery (almost any machinery will do - from guns to boats to cars to planes) with a female name, the naming of guns may be the most varied - some are named after females, some may be named for beloved pets or hunting dogs, many are named for sentimental purposes, and some may be named for their destructive capabilities (death stroke, etc - though I really have to wonder if we want people who name their guns things like death stroke to actually own guns - seems to me there might be a bit of mental instability amongst those folks - I'd much rather hunt with someone who names their gun Claire or Blue of Old Yeller than I would with someone who names their gun Vengeance). Is it uniquely American? That might be hard to answer - none of us on this side of the pond have any experience in the British armed forces so for all we know, British Marines name their guns. You also have much stricter gun control laws over on your side of the pond so it's less likely that someone will have a gun. Or it could just be that we Americans are just as eccentric as many Brits are - just about different things. I have a rifle and a shotgun at home - the rifle is a Remington, the shotgun is a Winchester. I've named my rifle Winchester and have named my shotgun Remington. I'll bet I can find some folks in England that have an encyclopedic knowledge of Dr. Who and who can tell us some really weird things about sonic screwdrivers.

In Illinois, we have always called this giant hogsweed. There are two smaller plants (small being relative - they still can grow to at least half the height of an adult human) that have the same kind of photo-sensitive effect and are much more common. Cow parsnip - Heracleum maximum has, like the giant hogsweed, white umbels. The plant we call wild parsnip has yellow umbels and not only looks like the parsnip plant of garden and farm, it shares the same latin name: Pastinaca sativa - which suggests to me the wild parsnip is just parsnips that have "escaped" the farm and is now growing wild. The domestic parsnip has the same photo-sensitive chemicals that lead to the rashes one can get after encountering giant hogsweed, cow parsnip and wild parsnip in the wilds so I wouldn't go bombing through a farmer's fields of parsnip either.

I think I missed that entire interpretation.

The BSA does not hold the copyright to the picture in Stosh's avatar - it's held by the estate of Norman Rockwell.

Ever ripped a CD? Only those that I have purchased - copyright law allows a person who purchases a CD to create a copy for personal use, including making a digital copy. Ripping a CD is not, in and of itself, a violation of copyright law - if I were then give the copy away, or share the digital files, or worse - sell them - then it would be a violation. Ever saved a DVD to your hard drive? Nope - why would I want to take up that much space on my hard drive - to watch a movie on a tiny screen? If I want to watch a movie, I'm going to do so stretched out on the couch watching it on the big screen television. Added music to a presentation? Nope - couldn't even tell you how to do so. Saved a song as an AAC or MP3 file and shared with someone? Nope. Ever posted a mime of a movie or famous picture? Nope - but then again, I'm also not a user of social media (facetrash? What is that??) Ever watched parts of a movie or tv show on YouTube? You whatsis now? Nope. Ever created that custom ring tone from a favorite song? I'm still exploring the wonderful world of the supplied ringtones - I wouldn't know how to create a ringtone. I do have a smart phone but I'm still trying to figure out how smart a phone can be if it does just about everything except being able to make phone calls wherever I want. Ever made a mixed tape? Not even when I was in high school in the way back days where in order to make a mix tape, you had to play the song on a tape recorder or record player while recording to a cassette recorder through a chintzy microphone connected to the cassette tape player/recorder. Ever used a non BSA licensed company to make a troop tshirt or Neckerchief? Why yes I have - BUT - we didn't use BSA imagery like the Fleur-de-Lis or depictions of rank badges or anything that the BSA licenses. Using a non BSA licensed company isn't an issue unless you're using copyrighted imagery that the BSA owns - only then does it become a problem. I have downloaded images from the internet though. For instance, I recently downloaded a very nice sheet by the American Pork Board on cooking times for pork. I've downloaded images of artwork, I've downloaded scholarly papers, I've downloaded pdfs from the BSA's own website. I've downloaded them for my own use and have not shared the files with anyone else. In general, this will fall under the fair use doctrine - though like Stosh, some of it may be inadvertent violations of the copyright law if the owner of the images meant to protect them (which is fairly easily done - if someone doesn't want something to be able to copied from the Internet, there are settings that will prevent one from copying those images - I copy some of the Google doodles for my own use and enjoyment - if Google didn't expect folks to copy them, they're certainly sophisticated enough to prevent it). Now before I'm accused of riding a high horse, the truth of the matter is that I don't even think of copyright law all that often - I'm just enough of a luddite that I just don't even think of doing a lot of these things.

I don't think this is about the applicant worrying about losing his clearance - it's about people that no longer need it keeping his personal information. I concur on letting it go legal. If he's that concerned, throwing his attorney a hundred bucks to put together a letter demanding the return of the application by a certain date should be worth it.

Ok - I see the point - but I don't quite buy it. I don't see anyone saying the program has to change except the folks that are adamantly opposed to coed scouting. Those of us who are accepting of the possibility of co-ed scouting have never said the program itself would have to change. If one of the reasons girls want to join the Boy Scouts is for the camping and hiking and outdoor adventures, why would anyone want to then change the program which would make it unattractive to both boys and girls. In what way would the program itself have to change? Would units have to do more overnights in museums and cabins? No one is suggesting that. Offer a knitting merit badge? No one is suggesting that (though there might very well be boys who would like that). Do folks think we would need to water down parts of the program? Whyy would we need to do that? Do folks think we would need to change rank requirements? Which ones do folks think we need to change? Don't confuse programming with logistics - separate tents is easy to solve. Using the latrines is easy to solve (and don't tell me that you would need to go to places with flush toilets because the girls won't use the latrines - I know a lot of boys that try to avoid the latrines as long as possible and would prefer flush toilets - any Scout - boy or girl - that can't handle latrines can stay home). No one is suggesting that if girls join, a Troops 10 mile hike will have to be scaled down to 5-miles just because girls are part of the unit. There is just no reason for anyone to have to change their actual program. No one (other than those opposed) is suggesting that the program will need to be watered down. As for the documentation - it's really not that difficult - YPT? Take whatever is in YPT as it applies to co-ed Venturing units and apply down the line (btw, it already does apply - we're just not used to thinking about it in those terms). There isn't a need for any big changes to YPT. BSA Handbook, Patrol Leaders Handbook, Scoutmasters Handbook, Merit Badge Pamphlets - they may need to become gender neutral in language but they'll still work. They can become gender neutral right now and they'll still work. Heck - an awful lot of the documentation is already gender neutral. Look at the Scout Oath - it doesn't mention gender in it at all. Scout Law? It's "A Scout is Trustworthy" not "A Boy is Trustworthy". If the Scoutmaster Handbook has a passage that reads something like "Your boys are your number one concern", it's very easy to change that to read "Your Scouts are your number one concern". I suspect that if the BSA is going to go co-ed, we're not going to be able to stop it - but we can, and should, make clear to the BSA that if girls do join, they join the BSA with the program as is - and that units will not look kindly on the BSA trying to tweak the program itself.

Isn't that what the Troop Library and Troop Librarian is for? To be a source for those $4.99 merit badge books? A Troop doesn't have to have a complete set of them - but it would be helpful to have at least 5 of each of the required merit badge books. If a Scout wants to try out a badge that doesn't have a book in the library, we will purchase a copy the next time someone goes out to the Scout Service Center for the library. Not all of the books in the library were purchased by the Troop - we've had a lot of Scouts buy a merit badge book at Summer Camp because they've decided to take a badge at the last minute and don't have access to the library or they forgot to check the book out from the library and they will donate them to the Troop when they are done with it. We don't purchase merit badge books at summer camp if we have copies in the Troop library back home (if it's a badge that the Troop doesn't have in the Troop library, the SM will buy it out of the summer camp petty cash fund - and yes, the library inventory is available at camp). A couple of our Scoutmasters have even told the Scouts that when they request a blue card, they have to check the merit badge book out of the library first and have it with them when they request it - They got it that, like you say, reading the merit badge book should be mandatory - the Scout may not read it, but he can't say he never had the opportunity to do so.

I understand this argument - but I have a couple of questions. Are we to assume that single mothers of girls aren't also looking for places where their daughters can have positive male role models in their lives? Isn't there value in men mentoring boys in a co-ed environment where the boys learn how to respect and listen to members of the opposite sex? Isn't there value in Scouts learning that the Scout Oath and Law applies just as much to their interactions with the opposite sex as it does to their interactions with their fellow Scouts? I'm not suggesting that there is no value to single-sex environments, but isn't there a way we could do both and then be able to say "We are the best Youth organization for all youth - bar none"?

I think I'm a fairly well-informed individual but I have to admit that I don't know who they are - care to enlighten us? Venturing is a program for teens 14-21. If you're going to open up Venturing to 11 year old girls, you will have to open it up to 11 year old boys. Isn't that just Co-ed Boy Scouts? I suppose its a solution to the issue of maintaining a single-sex program for some people but what about the other issues that folks have a concern about - seems to me an awful lot of folks were saying that summer camp facilities aren't set-up for co-ed Scouting and it would be very costly to set them up but if the BSA offers 11-21 Venturing, then won't a lot of those units want to utilize the summer camps? What happens to the high adventure aspect of Venturing - a lot of older Scouts join up with Venturing because they want more high adventure than their Troops are offering. Do we split it up into Junior Venturing and Venturing? Isn't that just another way of saying Boy Scouts and Venturing? Is it a matter of name? Boy Scouts? 40 years or so ago, the Boy Scouts of America started rebranding themselves as Scouting USA - it appeared at the time that the long rumored merger of the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts was going to take place and both programs would be replaced by Scouting USA. The BSA still holds the trademark to the term Scouting USA, and they hold the trademark to the term Scouting. I can easily see the Boy Scouts of America going co-ed and changing their market name to Scouting USA. If it were to go co-ed, I would hope that the BSA would be wise enough to make co-ed scouting a chartering organization option - if an organization wants to sponsor a boys only Cub Scout and Boy Scout program, another a co-ed program, and another a girls only program, where is the harm to Scouting? People will make their choices - let the market decide. If you as a leader want to only work with a boy-only unit, you'll have that option - why should you care if the Troop down the street, or the Troop in the next campsite down at summer camp has girls? Just about everything folks have mentioned as being a potential problem can be solved - the only thing I can think of that might be a real fear is that folks who want a single-sex program would have to compete for Scouts with another Troop in their town that is a co-ed group - and they might lose.

Since the BSA hasn't added an "are you gay" check box to their membership applications or any other official record, I would sure like to know how they could track it to either show that demand has not materialized or that it has. That leaves the question - what would you accept as proof that the demand has materialized? Increased numbers of Scouts? Boy Scout numbers have been declining for years - for many different reasons - I don't think any rational person thought that opening Scouting to gay members would reverse that trend. As NJScouter has reminded us, National views things from completely different lenses than the volunteers on the ground - and the number one lens is money. The BSA didn't allow gay scouts and leaders because of membership numbers - they allowed them because of the very real potential loss of major dollars - I would even be so bold to suggest that they were especially worried about the loss of funds and in-kind gifts from AT&T, just as they were trying to get Bechtel Summit off the drawing board (AT&T is a major contributor to the Summit). Allowing girls in to Cub Scouts? They're looking to the future with 50 power binoculars while most of us are still looking at the future with 2 power opera glasses. More and more packs, chartering organizations and parents are wanting it. It's not a "SJW" thing (and I would appreciate it if we just nipped the whole SJW arguments in this forum in the bud right now - that's a white nationalist and white supremacist trope that we just don't need to be validating). There are no organizations out there demanding it. Its parents, most of whom at this point have been raised to believe that boys and girls should be treated equally and should have the same opportunities - who were raised well after SCOTUS' decision that "separate but equal" is not justice under our Constitution. Its corporate donors, who are rapidly coming to the conclusion that supporting separate but equal entities like the BSA and GSUSA are not in keeping with their own anti-discriminatory policies. It also appears that my binocular analogy may be wrong. Given that they are also looking at the Boy Scouts program at the same time, I'm going to change it from 50 power binoculars to 150 power telescope. It makes sense to me that if they are seriously considering opening up Cub Scouts to girls, that they would also be looking to open up Boy Scouts to girls - just from the standpoint of what happens at the end of Webelos is boys can cross over and girls cannot - what happens to the girls? Sorry, you've had your fun but now you can't come in to the "no girls allowed" clubhouse? How many boys do you think we'll lose from Boy Scouts in families with girls and boys in Cub Scouts? Seriously, those threatening to take their ball and go home? Why wait - go ahead and do so now - frankly, if it's not this issue, there will be something else that comes up that's going to upset you enough to want to quit. When gays were first allowed, the BSA lost some members and units - but you know what? The BSA is still marching along - and has been mentioned, there hasn't been any negative press about the BSA kicking our Cub Scout's mothers or denying Eagle to Boy Scouts. A lot of units that lost chartering organizations found new ones. If the BSA's reputation was damaged that much by that decision, how do we explain a council in Oklahoma, a very conservative state, raising $28 Million to create a high adventure base? The BSA hasn't announced any policy changes yet - it's still early days - and it's still to early to panic.

Troop tents - always. 3-man if you can get them (room for 2 Scouts and their gear and some patrol gear). I just can't see telling the parents of 6 new Webelos crossovers that they no need to go out and buy a tent so that their son can go camping with the Troop. Care and feeding? Tents are numbered - the Troop Quartermaster keeps a list of the tents assigned to a Patrol by their number for the current camping trip. If a Patrol needs 3 tents, they get three tents. If they need 5, they get 5. The QM notes that they gave the Flaming Arrow Patrol tents 3, 5 and 6 for that weekend. Some Troops will assign tents permanently to a Patrol and that's ok too. The Patrol QM keeps their own list of who the tents they got were assigned. Billy & John got tent 3; Joe and Alfonse got tent 5 - you get the picture. At set-up, the Patrol QM does an inspection to note any deficiencies, any items that need repair or missing parts (count the stakes!) - BEFORE the Scouts move their gear in, and makes a note of any which he shares with the Troop QM. The Troop QM will verify that there is indeed a deficiency and makes a note of it. From this point, the care and feeding of the tent is the sole responsibility of the Scouts it is assigned to. At take-down, the Patrol QM does an initial inspection to make sure there is no damage (beyond reasonable wear and tear and beyond the control of the Scouts - during the weekend, things happen - zippers break, a stake loop might break - unless it's obvious that there is damage inflicted by the Scouts, it gets put on the repair list for the Troop QM to take care of before the next outing). Once this inspection is complete, the Scouts take down the tent and one of them takes on the responsibility for taking the tent home for final drying, airing out, and cleaning. Yes, it should be clean and mostly dry before it's backed away (and there are times they'll be packed up in a rain or mist) but don't assume that the tent is fully dry if you're packing it up a couple of hours after the Scouts wake up. It may not have rained but the Scouts breathing over night is going to add some water vapor - one of the Scouts has to take the tent home and set it up in their backyard for at least an afternoon to make sure it really is dry before packing it away. They turn the tent in to the Patrol QM who turns all the tents in to the Troop QM. The Patrol and Troop QM will unpack and do a final inspection of the tent then repack it and put it away. If there are any stakes missing, or damage to the tent that is not normal wear and tear, the Scouts that had the tent are responsible for any costs to repair or replace the tent or components - if there are three tent stakes missing when there were none when they got the tent, they need to pool their allowances to pay for 3 new stakes. The Patrol QM gives his list of which Scouts had which tent and his inspections to the Troop QM who attaches it to his list and inspections and notes of repairs needed. This record is kept for about 6 months. We've not had any mildewed tents by doing this and the Scouts all understand that they are responsible for the damage to the tents. We don't assign tents or any other gear permanently to Patrols. That prevents arguments about this Patrol or that Patrol always getting "the best tents" and we find that the Patrols tend to be a bit more careful in things like cleaning things like mess kits - no one wants to be called out at the next campout because they weren't as thorough in cleaning a pot and another Patrol has just found dried pasta in the bottom of the pot.

The four bases in the BSA HA group are all owned and run by National. Is the Indian Nations Council suggesting that it would sell their new HA base to National? There are councils that run their own high adventure bases that attract folks from beyond their own councils - Maine High Adventure run by the Katahdin Council comes to mind (mostly because I worked there back when it was a National High Adventure Base). I'm wondering what the cost would be to Scouts for some of these planned activities. Just the insurance costs alone for the longest zip line in Oklahoma, an ATV course, jet skies, a high speed go-kart race course and a "ninja" course might make this base prohibitively expensive for many units. If the cost is really high, I think you limit your potential audience to units in Texas, Arkansas, Missouri, Oklahoma and New Mexico, once travel costs are factored in.

I would say that "officially licensing" something is an endorsement (the UK Royal Family has been doing this for decades) but we need to be careful - the BSA isn't endorsing ALL Buck Knives - just those they have "officially licensed". There is a rule that Councils, Units and individual Scouters and Scouts can't endorse anything as Scouts, but that rule doesn't apply to National. I think if we had the time, we could probably find a lot of other examples of these kinds of sponsorships/endorsements from Jamborees past (and yes, I consider a sponsorship to be another kind of endorsement - done in such a way so that the organization benefitting from the sponsorship can claim they aren't actually endorsing a product even though we all know they are). At the last Jamboree, was there an official soft drink company? You would know by the brand of sodas/fruit juices and probably water sold at the trading posts and in vending machines. I looked at the official Jamboree Packing List. Zanfel is not the only brand name on it. It also says you should pack the official Osprey Jamboree Duffel and the Osprey Daylite daypack. It's also apparent that the BSA is amateurs at this whole sponsorship game - look at all the lost opportunities in that packing list. Sleeping pad? Where's the Thermorest sponsorship. Sleeping bag? Where is the North Face sponsorship. Sunglasses? Where is the Oakleys (or Rayban) spsonsorship. Soap? C'mon Life Buoy, where are you? Underwear? Knocking on your door Jockey, Hanes or Fruit of the Loom.

Hmmmm - reminds me of a certain weather forecasting rodent that makes a forecast about when Spring will arrive about 6 weeks before the end of Spring

Then as a DC, shouldn't you be encouraging the Troop leadership to get back on the path to True North?

The way I read the article, the 150K are not necessarily members of LFL. The schools may just be using the LFL curriculums/programs without requiring the students to be members.