CalicoPenn

MinnSM, Don't give up - appeal - right away - you can wait for the written document if you want but you already know why the rank was denied. I doubt it will need to go any farther than Council - the Council has already made itself pretty clear - denial based on this lack of signature won't stand - its too bad the DAC didn't "get it". Call whomever it is in Council who made the original decision to have a BOR held and tell him the Board denied the rank for the reason you appealed in the first place. Then - and there is more to do - get your COR to call the District Chairman, explain the issue and request the immediate replacement of the ADC. Why the COR? Because s/he is a voting member of the District and Council. If the District Chairman won't act, the COR can take the issue up with Council. The folks in the office do listen to the COR's because they know that's where there numbers come from. Calico

Great - as if the uniform police were not enough - now we have to deal with the flag police (just kidding - big wide grin). The folks who have pointed out that the Blue Star doesn't belong on the flag are right - only Gold Stars are permitted by the regs. However (you all saw that coming, didn't you): in times of war (whether we agree with the war or not) this is one rule I wouldn't mind being bent if circumstances warranted. If I were the Scoutmaster of a Troop who had a leader or parent called to serve in Iraq or Afghanistan and the Troop decided to put a Blue Star on the flag while that person was overseas, I would paraphrase Robert Conrad (famous tough guy actor - remember the Black Sheep Squadron?) in those Ever-ready battery commercials and dare anyone to try to remove that star from the flag. More food for thought. Calico

I would hope the Scoutmaster would not resign - and I don't think anyone is asking him to - The Scoutmaster is threatening to resign if the Scout (more likely the Scout's mother) appeals. This is why my suggestion is to talk to the Scoutmaster and get him to a) calm down and b) understand that the Scout and parent have the right to appeal and he can not do anything about it - he can resign if he wishes but it doesn't change anything. If he is insistent on resigning if the appeal happens, then sadly accept the resignation and move on. Ed - just wanted to point out that in some states, graffiti CAN be a felony. It accelerates to the felony level based on dollar amounts (often $500) or based on a multitude of sites. A lot of things that used to be misdemeanors are now felonies - and some of those things are the stupid things kids sometimes do (not defending the pipe bomb thing - just stating that we've often lost sight of intent in our laws nowadays). There are even states where going 15 mph over the posted speed limit might be considered a felony.

Problem solved? I wouldn't say so - sounds more like taking the easy way out - and here's why - the stars are put there to honor a specific person in the military, not just whomever happens to be serving in active duty at the time. If no one in the current unit knows who the star was honoring, then that star should be retired. Not trying to bust your chops here Cigar (and thanks for serving!) - just trying to suggest the honorable thing for a Scout Troop to do. My suggestion is to keep trying to find out who that star was placed on the flag to honor. In the meantime, to honor you, a new star should be placed on the flag - each serviceman should get their own star. I've never encountered a unit that put Blue Stars on their unit flags but it sounds like it could become a grand tradition. A suggestion I'd have for a unit participating in the Blue Star program would be to remove the Blue Star from the flag when that person's military service has ended, have it framed with perhaps your council's CSP, your unit's number, and maybe a picture of the unit flag with the star(s) on it and present it to the person for whom it honored as a rememberance. Just food for thought. Calico

I'm going to make a suggestion no one else has up to now (though Beavah came close with the Venture suggestion): Your college has an Outdoors Club - join it - and join in on some of their activities - let them lead you for a while before you start to lead others in the woods - heck, get someone from the Outdoors Club to lead you and your friends on your next hike to Contentment Falls (tell them you're thinking of joining the club and want to experience a little about what its about and what you can learn from them) - You'll gain lots of experience in a safe environment from people who are already knowledgable and on the ground where you are - you can learn a lot from the folks in here and from books but its quite different from learning in person. They'll be able to teach you how to use a compass too. To answer the why carry raingear question - the answer is to prevent the clothes you are wearing from getting wet and soaking through to your skin - it doesn't sound like a big deal, but wet clothes not only make for a miserable hike but can lead to deadly consequences (and I do mean deadly). Wet clothes do not insulate you from low temperatures - dry clothes do. On a cold day, even just five miles in, wet clothes can lead to hypothermia, a condition where the body tries to protect it's core functions (heart, lungs) by reducing circulation to the extremities (legs, arm, head). In normal circulation, your warm blood is routed to your extremities and the returning blood is colder (think of your body as if its a radiator - the core is the furnace, the extremities distribute the heat to the air) - in a hypothermic situation, your body will try to keep your core warm by not sending as much blood to the extremities. As I'm sure you've figured out by now, if one of those extremities is your head, then it follows that your brain will also get less circulation - and even if the body doesn't think of it as a core function, without the brain, we're toast. Without quick treatment, hypothermia leads to death. Calico

A Blue Star would be attached to a flag to honor a person on active duty military service. A Gold Star would be attached to a flag to honor a person killed during active military service. I would suggest that you try to contact one of the troops own old-timers (ex committee members/leaders) to see if they can shed light on why there is a Blue Star on your unit's flag. If no one in the current leadership knows why it's there, then the reason for it being there may no longer be valid and it could be removed. Calico

Sounds like a tough one because of the circumstances around it, but it really shouldn't be. The issue here isn't the lads felony conviction. The issue here is that the Board of Review refused to perform their duty. It sounds like the Board was trying to do right by Scouting and this Scout but went about it in the wrong way. If they were convened, as you state they were, then the refusal to perform the Board of Review may be tantamount to denial of rank and if so the Scout must be given written documentation of the denial with steps needed to correct the deficiency(ies) and information on the appeals process. If the Board hadn't convened and refused to perform their duty, then the Scout needs to be informed of the appeal process to request that a new Board of Review be formed. The Board should have held the review, then denied the rank with their reasons and let things take it's course. Either way, the Scout or his parent or unit has the right to appeal. This leads to the Scoutmaster. Someone needs to sit the Scoutmaster down and tell him to "take a chill pill". The Scout (or parent) has the right to appeal - no ifs, ands or buts. The Scoutmaster threatening to resign does nothing to change that right to appeal. If he continues to threaten to resign, then say "sorry to see you leave" and let him go - it would be a shame to lose him if he's a good leader but the bigger picture is the Scoutmaster is a role model and as a role model must follow the rules - like them or not. A Scoutmaster who threatens to "take his ball and go home" as it were if he doesn't get his way isn't the best role model for the Scouts. The best case here would be to get the Scout his scheduled, promised Board of Review. The Board should do the review like all reviews - and use the review as an opportunity to talk about this issue. They may still deny the rank and present their reasons and steps to correct deficiencies, which of course could lead to an appeal - or they could find that this was, as you state, a case of kids horsing around without thinking of the consequences and the kid is genuinely chastened and apologetic, and recommend the rank (which they seem to be willing to do after a certain period of time). In this case, I believe your best option is to deny, after a proper Board, and allow the Council/National appeals process go through and let them make the final decision - I've found nothing written for the volunteers that specifically state that a Scout convicted of a felony is no longer eligible to become an Eagle Scout - this one could easily be dropped into the lap of the organization. Calico

My opinion: I don't think I'd be going to far out on a limb to say that most of us think the explanation seems a bit silly to us. However, perhaps we should be cutting the officials quite a large bit of slack here - they know their community much better than we do and likely knew they would be in for it if they didn't take this action - by doing so, they could disarm those who would object to the Scouts being there by stating they were within the law, and could disarm the critics by stating that they didn't prevent the Scouts from setting up shop - we may not think so but it's probably a win-win for the county taxpayers - they certainly have prevented cause for any serious litigation - and if it were my county, I'd be thanking them for trying to be evenhanded and saving my tax dollars by not getting the county involved in a frivolous lawsuit. Now, that being said, I propose what is perhaps a radical idea - no electioneering at all on election day - not 100 feet from the polls - not 100,000 feet from the polls - you had until the day before to make your case, now let the people vote. Also no collecting for charity at polling places, no selling of brooms or knick knacks - none of it. It's election day - we should be concentrating on voting once we get to the day and polls. Lets start considering election day sacred - its a right, privilege and responsibility to vote. Lets start treating it as sacred instead of as a circus as it so often becomes at some polling places. When I go to the polls, I want to do one thing - vote - I've already made up my mind by the time I'm heading to the poll - I don't want to talk to the candidate or his/her people one last time. I also don't want to have to bring some canned goods with me, or sign petitions to save some local landmark, or buy a broom for a good cause. I want to vote. I don't even want to see my local homeless veteran, whom I give a buck to every time I see him, standing outside the polling place (Hey, Mr/Ms Candidate - need something to do on election day? Take a homeless veteran out to lunch - and maybe a little shopping). Just dreaming, I suppose. Calico

Time requirement for POR? Yep - the same amount of time as any other time requirement - if the requirement states serve 6 months, the time requirement is 6 months. Here's the rub, though - the requirements don't state that it must be the same position for all 6 months - they state serve in one or more POR's for 6 months - theoretically, a Scout could serve in 6 different POR's, one per month, for 6 months and meet the requirement but it's really written that way because sometimes someone might be elected to be SPL, having already served 4 months as a Den Chief, or Scribe, or whatever, and in most cases, the SPL will give up the other POR during his term and rather than be penalized for it, still gets the credit of those four months (btw - for Star it's 4 months, Life and Eagle 6 months - in my opinion it should be 4 months for 1st class, 6 months each for Star, Life and Eagle - but thats for another discussion). For the Den Chief Service award, the Scout MUST serve 1 year as Den Chief. Calico

You had a wise Den Chief ASM there, Barry - good chemistry between the Den Leader and the Den Chief is the key to a successful Den Chief/Den relationship - after all, the Den Chief becomes part of the Leadership Team of the Den (and Pack) and needs to be counted on, and counted! In theory, the Cubmaster makes a request to the Scoutmaster for Den Chiefs. Den Chiefs are then appointed by the SPL and Scoutmaster - the SPL MUST be involved in the appointment because the Den Chief is a youth leadership position, and it is the SPL that appoints all youth leadership positions in the Troop (with the sole exception being Junior Assistant Scoutmaster)(further clarification - those junior leadership positions that are appointed and not elected). The role of Scoutmaster, other than being the contact with the Cubmaster, should be to approve the appointment (and rightfully so - the Den Chief will be representing the Troop to the Pack and the Scoutmaster has a responsibility to the Troop and Troop Committee to make sure the Troop is well represented). Just as acceptable, though, is for the SPL and the Scoutmaster to come to a collaborative consensus on the appointment and for them to appoint jointly, in one voice. Once the appointed Den Chief is presented to the Pack, the Cubmaster and the Pack Committee accepts (or denies - rare but could potentially happen) the Den Chief and approves a recommendation to a Den Leader - or put another way, the Cubmaster and Pack Committee appoints the Den Chief to a specific Den, although the Den Leader can refuse the appointed Den Chief, or can make a request for a specific person. Sounds complicated? Admittedly, it is so... In practice, what generally occurs is a boy moves on to Scouts, has younger siblings or a parent still active in the pack, and asks if he can be a Den Chief in the pack - oftentimes directly asking a specific Den Leader if he can be their Den Chief - Den Leader say's ok - tells the Cubmaster, who asks the Scoutmaster to allow the Scout to be the Den Chief for this Den Leader - and most Scoutmasters won't say no - at least not if they understand the importance of Den Chiefs not only to a Pack but to the Troops recruiting efforts. The Scoutmaster might run it past the SPL who likely doesn't care either way - and viola, new Den Chief. How does this help you WDL Mom? - It probably doesn't - instead, I'd build on what Eagledad's Den Chief ASM said - its the chemistry between the Den Leader and the Den Chief, not between the Den Chief and the Webelos, that most matters. I would ask the Webelos II Den Leader if they want to work with this lad. On to something not quite related to the question, but certainly related to the role of Den Chief - look into the requirements for the Den Chief Service Award - yes, the BSA has an award that Boy Scouts can earn for serving as a Den Chief. The award itself is a Red, White and Blue Den Chief Cord which can be worn as long as the Scout is a Scout - even if he no longer serves as a Den Chief - if he is serving as a Den Chief, he can wear both cords at once. The award requires a minimum 1 year committment as a Den Chief, and has a number of other requirements, and is a great recognition for service if earned by the Scout. This is something that you can encourage the Den Chiefs to earn - and there really is no reason every Den Chief couldn't earn it. Calico

Thanks for the clarification ScoutNut - I agree with it 110% Calico

Generally, it should be one Den Chief per Den. Part of the scouting method is interaction with adults - and this certainly counts. As for mentoring, I consider that part of the training process - it's ongoing training. Going to Den Chief Training for 4 hours one Saturday morning may get a Den Chief his "Trained" patch, but it doesn't mean he's ready to handle anything that comes his way. Having an older Scout who is/was a Den Chief act as a mentor to the younger Den Chiefs helps complete the circle of training. I would hope that a Scoutmaster wouldn't send a raw SPL to training then tell the SPL that now that he is trained, it's all his - the Scoutmaster serves as a mentor to the SPL - and there is nothing that says former SPL's can't also serve as effective mentors too - in fact, older Scouts SHOULD be acting as mentors to the younger leaders - they have the experience, and now they should be sharing it - that's the basis behind the old Leadership Corps, and the basis behind the Junior Assistant Scoutmaster position. Calico

As others have pointed out, once he turns 18, he can register as an ASM or leave thr troop. The other option is he joins a Venturing Crew - if you have one affiliated with your Troop, you could have a couple of joint outings. As for the "officious snot" - YPT guidelines are clear that an 18 year old ASM can't tent with a 17 year old Scout - even if they are the best of friends. However, a 17 year old Scout can also be a 17 year old Venturer, and they may be able to share a tent on Venturing outings (can anyone confirm?) Calico

Fantastic WDL Mom - just what a good Den Chief is supposed to be. It's amazing what a little bit of responsibility can do. I served as a Den Chief for 7 years - from the moment I joined a troop to my 18th birthday as an Explorer (yep - Explorers could be Den Chiefs). It was the most rewarding youth leadership position I ever held - not even Chapter Chief or Lodge Vice Chief held a candle to it. While the Den Chief is there to assist the Den Leader, another part of the job is to encourage the boys to move up to the next level - from Bear to Webelos, and from Webelos to Scouts. Something we did with my troop was to allow the Den Chiefs to invite their den to one of the regular troop meetings at least once during the year - didn't matter if it was a Webelos den or a Wolf/Bear den (back in my day, they were mixed). It certainly seemed to help boost recruiting. Another thing I'll mention, in the units I've worked in/with, it seems to me that the Den Chiefs were often the ones most consistently in full uniform. The concept of setting the example really seems to take hold in Den Chiefs - The pack I worked with was large, up to 12 Dens at a time, and all had Den Chiefs - you could count on all of the Den Chiefs to always be in full uniform at every Pack meeting - and that really made an impression on the boys and parents in the pack. Oh, one other thing you might find fun (since I'm reminiscing - which I seem to do a lot of here) - the Den Chiefs, who normally organized their Den to perform the flag ceremony for one of the Pack Meetings, performed the Flag Ceremony together at the Blue and Gold - even if they were from different troops. For the Blue and Gold, we usually borrowed our own units US and Troop flag for the ceremony - in my last year, we had the Pack's flag, 3 Troop flags, and 1 Explorer Post flag, along with 5 US flags - good thing we had lots of Den Chiefs that year (and each unit flag marched down the aisle next to one of the US Flags in ascending order both by unit type and number wise - first the Pack flag, them the three Troop flags (Troop 96, then Troop 168, then Troop 280) then the Post flag) And the Troop(s) flag was ALWAYS present at a Cross-over ceremony. Ok - I lied - one other thing - it wasn't (and still isn't as far as I know) an official part of the Den Chief program (though it should be) - in my last year, I didn't serve an actual den - instead, I served as a sort of "Senior" Den Chief - a mentor to all of the other Den Chiefs, and assisted the Cubmaster directly with Pack Meetings and Pack Activities, with the full knowledge and approval of my Explorer Post Advisor who thought it was a great idea too. Something some of you larger Packs with lots of dens and Den Chiefs might want to consider. CalicoPenn

Gonzo, I appreciate the answer but I'm still not buying it. Cutting and Running is just another soundbite with no real meaning behind it, similar to leaving and losing. The arguments still don't convince that leaving (or "cutting and running") means losing. The "terrorists" will be no more empowered to attack us than they already are while we are in Iraq. (And I purposely quotation the word terrorist because my opinion is that we are using it too loosely with regards to the situation in Iraq - we all understand and agree that the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks were terrorists - now we're to believe and agree that the insurgents are also terrorists - but any honest review of mankinds history shows that insurgents (by definition, rebels against a government) have made considerable changes in how our world now looks - our founding fathers, rebelling against England, were insurgents, as were the Afghan Mujahadeen fighting Russia - England and Russia might very well have called those folks terrorists too - I don't think most of us would agree that our founding fathers were terrorists - or agree that the Boston Tea Party was a terrorist attack (though it could honestly be said to have been one)). Right now, those "terrorists" are in Iraq attacking US citizens and don't seem to be very anxious to come here to attack us - why insist that we keep our soldiers in harms way in the middle of a civil war - let the Iraqi people fight it out - it's their country, not ours. And it is their country - I've seen no one apologizing for Saddam, no one saying the world would be a better place with him still in charge (ask the talking head pundits who made those claims to back them up - they can't - but that's beside the point). The Iraqi people didn't ask for this war, this war that has turned into a civil war in their country - and they didn't seem to be in a big hurry to get rid of the guy. They say they are happy now that he is gone but they didn't get rid of him - and, again my opinion, they should have been the people to take the initial steps. Calico

I have yet to find anyone who could clearly articulate how withdrawing our troops from Iraq and losing is one and the same thing. The closest I've seen is someone who stated that leaving is giving up - but the argument seems to fall apart when countered that we could declare that our objectives have been met, tell the Iraqi's the balls back in their court, and leave Iraq - not as losers or giving up, but as winners who have succeeded in doing what we set out to do (whatever that is - there've been so many iterations, I don't think anyone knows anymore). Seems simple to me - declare victory and leave - that satisfies everyone - the folks who insist that we must win, and the folks who are saying lets stop getting our kids killed in a foreign land where we have outstayed our welcome/mission. Calico

The rule among my friends and family - if you didn't vote, you don't get to complain (or course we don't say complain, we use a bit more colorful language but you get the idea). Voting is a priviledge, it is also a right, and more importantly, it is a responsibility. I'm very proud to say that I have never missed an opportunity to vote, not even in municipal or primary elections - I even pulled an absentee to vote in my municipal election back when I was away in college. Having grown up in the Chicago area, I'm very familiar with voting early AND voting often. Calico

jwmerica, Allow me to echo the Welcomes to the forum - and to say don't worry about bumping up this thread again - I'd be willing to bet (if that were allowed in the BSA) that the folks who didn't want to see the thread again are the grumps that didn't like the red beret in the first place (extra wide grin). Great advice on breaking in the beret, by the way. Of course for those scouts without the patience to spend an hour or so with a wet beret on their head, sleeping with the thing works wonders as well. CalicoPenn

SSS - most a bit before my time but the Peter Graves reference intrigues me. I know Peter Graves from his role in Mission Impossible, his role as host of Biography, and the really bad 1950's B-movie science fiction films (the ones that are so bad, they're good - and the perfect fodder for Mystery Science Theater). So what was the oceanic documentary? Growing up, the weekend routine was Saturday morning cartoons, Roller Derby in the evening, Creature Features at night (we got to stay up late for this - it didn't come on until 10 - first Creature Feature I saw was Dracula - scared the bejebus out of me), then Sunday afternoons/nights was the Outdoor Sportsman, Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom, Jaques Cousteau or Disney. Calico

I readily admit to having mixed feelings on this - I agree that just because an SPL becomes Eagle that it shouldn't mean the automatic loss of an elected position and the the Scout should be allowed to finish his term - and run for another term should he wish. On the other hand, provided the lad is at least 16 (JASM is the only youth leadership post with an age requirement - he must be at least 16),it's not that onerous of a tradition to appoint the lad to the JASM position - provided, of course, the lad agrees. On yet another hand - the Eagle rank is not required to become a JASM and you may have a 16 year old Life Scout who is well-qualified to become a JASM - would he not be given the opportunity if he doesn't have his Eagle? The JASM position has a two-fold purpose (as I understand it). It serves as a transitional leadership position between youth leadership positions and adult leadership positions. The JASM is appointed by the Scoutmaster and reports to the Scoutmaster - he isn't a member of the PLC and does not report to the Senior Patrol Leader. The JASM functions just the same as an Assistant Scoutmaster. The second purpose is to provide a meaningful place for older scouts who want to remain active and useful, but because of greater outside demands on their time (school, school activities, dating, part-time work) have less time for Scouts. It keeps your older pool of Scouts available as a resource for your younger Scouts and your unit instead of letting them drift off. As for the boy who has served as SPL through 2 Scoutmasters, my opinion is if he wishes to become a JASM, then appoint him as a JASM - even if in the middle of the term. You don't say how long each Scoutmaster served but unless your turnover was rapid, the lad has been SPL for far too long and it's time for someone else to take the reins. I would see nothing wrong in holding a "special election" to fill the SPL's spot if he is appointed a JASM. I also think that the rest of the Scouts would not see this as quitting in the middle of something but taking the opportunity to grow into something new. CalicoPenn

Welcome to the forum, Tim. And don't worry - as that "one-hour per week" grows to many hours per week, it will still feel like time is flying by and it's only one-hour per week. Calico

The age is 18. The adult registration form is used but the age limits on that form doesn't apply to Merit Badge Counselors because MBC's aren't considered leaders. If the only position one is applying for is Merit Badge Counselor, no fee is collected with the application. CalicoPenn

I cancelled cable television back in October of 2001, and never hooked the TV to the antenna. I use it strictly for watching movies or History/Discovery/PBS channel/type programs that I can pick up at my local library. I was getting awfully tired of local newscast "on the street" interviewers transferred in from Texas/Florida/Arizona (name other typically warm state here) bundled up in parkas on the "first cold day of the season" (usually about 45 degrees) asking construction workers (who were invariably dressed in jeans and sweatshirts/flannel shirts) how to stay warm when the weather turns cold. As if Chicagoans really need to be told how to stay warm when it's cold outside (and as if Chicagoans would be caught dead in a parka in anything greater than 10 degrees above outside). OGE: By the time I was growing up, we had a few additional channels on TV in Chicago - though not by much. PBS (Channel 11), Channel 26, 32, 44 and if we were lucky, we could get in Channel 60. Channel 20 was the educational channel and I remember a few sick days from school turning the channel from Hazel to watch a physics lecture on Channel 20 (not that I understood it at age 9). Every once in a while, I'll stay in a hotel and cruise the channels to see what I'm missing - and it's not much. If we could order up cable channels ala-carte, I think I would choose my local PBS station, the Discovery Channel, the History Channel, the Food Network, the Sci-Fi Channel, Sundance, and maybe an HBO or Showtime - and that's about it. Seems were coming full circle, from the 5 channels only availability when OGE was growing up, to hundreds of channels and a desire to have only 5 or so that one chooses. CalicoPenn

Trevorum, I did 14 Mile Swims during one two week camp period, including two back-to-back (got into a zone and my poor Scoutmaster couldn't keep up with me in the row boat). Of course, this was back when I was a young, in shape, lad who swam the 500-meter competitively during summer swim meets and in High School. Calico(This message has been edited by CalicoPenn)

I'm looking forward to the day when the BSA is sued for denying the Eagle Scout Award to a boy who proclaims his faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the deity of the Pastafarian Movement. Calico