CalicoPenn

Have the lads completed their POR's? If so, how do you propose to measure their readiness for leading an Eagle Project if they are no longer required to hold a leadership position in which you can evaluate that? Technically, once a lad has completed the 6 month POR requirement for Eagle, he never has to serve another day in a POR if he chooses not to. We all hope that a Scout will be willing to continue to serve, and for the most part this happens, but if he chooses not to, he can't be penalized for it once he's completed the initial POR requirement. I think you have the best interests of the lads at heart, but I think you're doing this backwards - instead of using the POR's to evaluate the lads ability to lead, you should be using the PORs to prepare the lads to lead. Becoming ASPL doesn't automatically make one an instant leader - you should be prepared to tell them what needs to be done, what they need to do, and show them how to do it - that's how they learn. The Eagle project isn't a test of a lads ability to lead - it's a movement of leadership from Scouts to the Community. Keep in mind that there are also all kinds of leadership styles as well. So I ask - what is "appropriate" leadership skills and initiative? How will that be measured? What are appropriate leadership skills for a Librarian, a Scribe, a Quartermaster, a Chaplain's Aide, a Patrol Leader, a Senior Patrol Leader - surely, they don't all require the exact same skills? One more point - there really is nothing in the Eagle process that allows an SM, ASM, CC, AC, or any one else to hold a lad back because he "just isn't ready" to do an Eagle Project. The BSA assumes that once a lad has earned the Life rank, they are ready to do an Eagle project. Nothing in the rank requirements for Eagle states that the lad has to earn all of the required merit badges, and must have completed his POR before he starts work on the Eagle project. A lad can, if HE so chooses, start working on the Eagle project the day he is awarded the Life rank - and complete it first, before earning the rest of the merit badges, or serving in a POR. In addition, there is nothing in the requirements that state a Scout must show competant leadership BEFORE he starts his Eagle project. He only needs to show competant leadership and initiative DURING his Eagle project. As I've stated, I believe you have the best interests of the Scouts at heart - but I also think you're (just barely) stepping over that line in requiring competant leadership skills before starting an Eagle project. Your ASM is right to push back (though for the wrong reasons in my opinion - the Eagle Project is the time to put to work the leadership skills one has learned - learning new leadership skills during the project is secondary). Calico

The legal status of 4-H is that it is a program of the US Department of Agriculture under the Cooperative Extension Service. It came about with the passage of the Smith-Lever act which created the Cooperative Extension Service and included youth agricultural groups in its mandate. That became the basis of what is now known as 4-H. 4-H and it's symbols are trademarked to and under the protection of the US Secretary of Agriculture. The National 4-H Council is a private, non-profit organization whose mission is to support 4-H. It doesn't supplant it, it doesn't make 4-H policy - it supports 4-H. State land grant universities, and state extension agencies received federal funds from the USDA to assist with presenting the 4-H program. In a lot of ways, 4-H is run like the BSA. National BSA grants charters to Councils to run the business affairs of the BSA in many parts of the country, and grants charters to organizations to offer the BSA program to youth - and these Charter holders are bound by their charter to follow the rules as set down by National BSA. While the USDA may not directly run any local 4-H programs, they are granting others the ability to do so - and those folks must follow the rules as set by the USDA. 4-H does not have a religious component, and, because it is a US Government program, cannot have a religious component. As for the Illinois Smoking ban - I'm all for it. Now I'll be able to actually taste my food when I go to a restaurant and not some inconsiderate slobs cigarette. Calico

I really hadn't meant to hijack the thread like this - honestly, I didn't. I'm not disputing the Digestion = Energy = Body Heat formula - I'm pointing out a part that's not often thought about - Time Started. I guess I'm not explaining it well - perhaps a different analogy - this time, cooking. We've all probably run into cooking directions that say something like "Bring 3 quarts of water to a boil, then reduce the heat to a simmer". We know that bringing water to a boil takes a lot of initial energy. Once its at a boil, we can keep the water simmering for a long time with much less energy. So it is with digestion. When we first eat solid food, our body brings the stomach up to a "boil" to get things started - and keeps it at the "roiling boil" level for quite a while. Eventually, digestion reaches the "simmer" stage - it takes less energy to keep digestion going at the "simmer" stage than at the "boiling" stage. When winter camping, we want to hit the sack when digestion is at the "simmer" stage so we have use of the energy used in the initial stages of digestion to warm up our surroundings. We need to warm up our surroundings because eventually, at some point in the night, digestion will stop completely, no longer providing fuel for our body to keep us warm. Warmth trapped in the little tiny spaces of our sleeping bag fabrics help to prevent heat from escaping too rapidly - hopefully long enough to get us through the night and into the morning. If we're starting full boil digestion as we hit the sack, (and its getting that energy by releasing less blood flow and energy to our arms and legs) we'll have less energy (warmth) available to warm up the bed. If we're cold enough, our body will try to do both things at once - start digestion, and warm up our surroundings. It will do this by starting the shiver reaction - shivering creates a lot of heat and energy. But its a temporary gain, because shivering also USES a lot of heat and energy. If you're shivering in the morning when you first get up you have a chance to make the short term gains long term - by getting warm liquids in, by basking in the sun (if its up and proving to be warm). But shivering doesn't just stop because we've warmed up - it can also stop because we just don't have the energy left anymore to keep shivering. Every hypothermia victim has experienced shivering as a symptom that there is a problem starting. Thus, we don't want to be eating major munchables (anything beyond a handful of trail mix) 5 minutes before we hit the sack - we should eat them at least an hour earlier. Of course, this is my advice, based on the time I've spent winter camping, and teaching winter camping as an OKPIK instructor at a National High Adventure Base, and through classroom theory and experiential learning for my undergrad degree in Outdoor Recreation/Environmental Education. I know that I'm not the one that's going to be woken up at 2:30 in the morning by a Scout that is so cold that he feels like crawling into a campfire. Calico Ps. - when winter camping, I always suggest that Scouts bring to bed with them an empty, wide-mouthed nalgene type bottle (something with a very good screw on lid) to use "in case they need to find the nearest bush". Wrap it with a piece of colored tape to identify it by sight for its use. This way, you don't have to crawl out of the warm bag (which you'll have to rewarm again - and now you won't have the reserves you need) AND the bottle is now filled with a warm liquid - and we like warm, liquid filled bottles. It can be emptied and rinsed out in the morning.

First aid for Hypothermia doesn't include solid food. Warm liquids - warm water, broth, herb teas, hot cocoa, black teas, coffee are fine, but not solid foods. When hypothermia threatens/starts, your body reacts by doing everything it can to protect the core of the body - the thorax and abdominal cavities. It starts to restrict blood flow to the extremities to keep as much heat in the core as possible - it even considers the brain to be secondary to protecting the core (which is why people who are hypothermic have trouble speaking, and have significantly reduced judgement - less blood flow to the brain). Digestion works by forcing more blood flow to the stomach to get things going - and full blast digestion in the typical person runs for about an hour before tapering off. If you feed solid foods to a hypothermic person, the body will shunt a lot of energy and blood flow to the stomach to start digestion - energy it needs to keep the core warm. The body won't simply ignore the need to start digesting, it will recognize that digestion offers energy, and will try to use that as a possible fix. Unfortunately, it may take critical resources away from where it needs it at that moment, and that would be dangerous. Warm liquids, however, aren't triggering that same digestive response, because they don't need to be digested. They are already in an immediately usable form - solid food isn't. Relating back to eating and winter camping. A good analogy could be made with a campfire. We all know that the best cooking with a campfire is over a bed of nice, hot coals. The first 1/2 hour or so to get to that bed of coals we're burning wood, and the fire isn't as hot. If we aren't constantly stoking the fire with a piece of wood every now and then, and decide to start a fire on top of a bed of coals that is no longer cooking temperature hot by adding some more wood, it takes quite a bit of time for the wood to catch fire and start building up that bed of coals again. So, consider that most units, at least in the northern states, that are camping in winter snows probably have dinner at about 5 pm (we tend to try to take advantage of as much natural light as possible when cooking outdoors, and once sun sets, without a watch its more difficult to determine time - we usually think its much later at night than it really is once winter dark hits). By bedtime, our internal fire is now a cooling off bed of coals - unless you've been grazing for the rest of the night (not a bad strategy sometimes). Put together a little snack and we're restoking that internal fire - expending a lot of energy to get that engine of digestion restarted. That energy has to come from somewhere, and its being taken from other parts of the body. Ideally, we want to have a nice "cooking bed of coals" going when we're heading to bed - that means we no longer want the engine to be starting and firing up - we want it to be running well - and that means, snacking no later than about an hour before bed time. Hot liquids right before bed will help that internal fire keep going for a time, but solid food will take the energy (heat) we need from elsewhere to start up that engine again. In winter camping, we aren't climbing into a nice, warm bed (even at home, its not really warm and toasty - BUT its also not much colder than room temperature - and room temperature in a tent is pretty close to the temp outside). What warms the bed? We do - and we need to do so. Our body heat warms up our sleeping bags, clothes and blankets and that warmth gets trapped in our bags providing additional insulation. If our body is going to be diverting energy to start digestion, its not going to take it from the core - its going to take it from our extremities and surface mass - the heat and energy we need to warm our bags is being used instead to digest solid food. That may not be as critical when its 40 F at night but if its 10 F, it can be significant. I've not seen much of either Survivorman or Man vs. Wild, but what I have seen is good for entertainment, and for general knowledge but there have been things I've seen that make me cringe. Sometimes because the strategy is just plain stupid (why, for example, if you're at a river - natures highway - would you start a cross country trek through a forest, perpendicular to the river, to try to get yourself unlost - the best strategy (other than staying put) is to follow the course of the river) and sometimes it may model something that might be ok in some situations and not in others - with no information about when it might not be such a great idea to try (eating snow in the Canyonlands during the day when it's in the 80's for hydration is fine - but eating snow in the winter is a recipe for bad news - best way to cool a body down internally? Eat ice cubes). Based on what I've seen, I wouldn't include these shows in a syllabus for wilderness survival, except for perhaps excerpts of what not to do. Calico

The whole wait an hour before swimming stuff is one of those old wives tales - where it came from, I couldn't say, but it was particularly popular in the 1960's. My mother told us to wait half an hour, not an hour. Of course, that lasted until we started swimming competively in the park district swim teams where we often ate between races to keep our energy levels up. Depending on who you talk to, some claimed it was because you would get stomach cramps, some claimed that it could lead to leg and arm cramps, others, like my mother, just said we would get sick (its not unusual to feel a little "oogie" in the stomach while exercising with a full stomach). I'd guess that digestion would have something to do with it since digestion causes greater blood flow to the stomach (which means lowering blood flow to other parts of the body - usually the arms and legs). Would this make that much difference swimming? Not really. But in Winter Camping? It's more than just about being uncomfortable - depending on how good your gear is, and how insulated you are, and how cold it is, it could be the difference between staying healthy and alive, and getting into serious problems like hypothermia. As you get cold, you run a real risk of getting colder, not warmer, if your body isn't recovering. Calico

A quick suggestion about cracker barrel feeding times at night in the winter. It's one thing to enjoy a cup of hot cocoa or tea just before bed during winter camping - it's quite another to be eating food - hot or cold - of any kind just before bed. If you are going to be serving food to the lads during a winter campout, do so at least one hour - two is better - before bed. Reason? You want your bodies main job at bedtime to be keeping you warm. Eating anything right before bed means your body is going to kick in the digestive processes - and it will put all of its energy (except for autonomous functions of course) into digestion. Drinking warm liquids doesn't trigger the digestion response as intensely as eating solid food does. You don't want your body to be concerned with digestion at bedtime during a winter campout because its taking that energy from the most important job - keeping you warm. Calico

Ok - I give up - I'm starting to feel like a character on Monty Python - My Brain Hurts! Since we are being told that a name is at core an interpretation, and since a number and/or date is merely a name we use to interpret figures and days, there can be no such thing as a fact, since we would use words to express a fact, and words are pretty much names of concepts and therefore just interpretation. So I get it now - there is no such thing as a fact. A Gull may be a bird, but its not a fact that its a bird because Bird is just a name that we use to identify similar species like Gulls but Bird is really just a name and that name is just an interpretation. Ok - so there can never, ever be a fact because our words are not capable of expressing fact since words are just an interpretation. At the same time, an astronomy exhibit that mentions the word god can never be an astronomy exhibit because it mentions the word god. Never mind that the Catholic Church hired people as Astronomers (you know, those folks that studied the objects in the "heavens", a science known as, hmmm - Astronomy) - it's obvious to me now that because they were working for "God" that they weren't studying astronomy at all - they must have been studying Theology, which of course means those Astronomers weren't Astronomers at all, but were Theologians. I guess that means that Michelangelo wasn't an Artist - he must have been a Theologian since he was hired by the Church. And all those musicians that created hymns - nope, they weren't musicians - they were Theologians too. A walking tour of the architecture of Notre Dame Cathedral isn't a walking tour of architecture at all - its a walking tour of Theology. Ok - I'm heading off to get an aspirin - or twenty. Calico

Good question. This is one of those awards that could be awarded by the Den Leader or could be awarded by the Parent. I think in practice, most Den's work on the Whittling Chip together and the Den Leader awards the card, but if a Parent says their child has earned the Whittling Chip, then it should be awarded on the Parent's say. Why should the Parent be allowed to award the Whittling Chip? Because earning the Whittling Chip is part of Bear Achievement #9, and we all know that the Parent (aka Akela) signs off on Bear Achievements. Why should a Den Leader award the Whittling Chip? Because it's a great activity the Den can do together and the lads hear the safety talk from two different sources. What makes them qualified? They're parents and adults who have read the book and understand the rules. By the way, has anyone else noted that in order to earn the Whittling Chip, one must first complete Bear Achievement #9 but to complete Bear Achievement #9, one must earn the Whittling Chip? Calico

How about trying a Potluck Crackerbarrel. In the winter, everyone brings their favorite holiday cookies to share with the group, or some other such thing. Provide the drinks and the serving stuff, let everyone else join in providing the goodies. Calico

It's a visual depiction of the solar system, with each planet placed the corresponding distance from the sun. How is this not an astronomy display? I've got to say, It's rare that anyones argue that history isn't a set of facts. Now those sets of facts may be interpreted through different viewpoints, but the basis of those viewpoints is fact. Same with science. Theories and hypothesis are interpretations of facts, but the facts remain steady. But I'm willing to keep an open mind. Convince me that the fact that a gull is a bird is just an interpretation, or that Pearl Harbor was attacked on December 7, 1941 is just an interpretation.

Beavah asks: What do you feel about a society that funds and establishes informational displays on public lands, but excludes one sort of information entirely? Interesting question. My answer is "I'm fine with it". Informational displays on public lands are based on fact, science and history. Sometimes, they may be just plain wrong - a good example would be an historical marker out east claiming that a church built in the late 1600's in Virginia was the first Christian church in the United States, when Spanish Missions were being built out in the western part of the US back in the 1500's. For the most part, they don't deal with matters of faith and opinion. If an informational display were to touch on matters of faith, I'd be fine with it provided it was put in historical context (ie. "Native American's believe that Devil's Tower was created by a spirit bear, etc. etc. etc." or "The Cathedral was designed by Mr. X who gained divine inspiration in a dream, etc. etc. etc."). If, on the other hand, a publically funded sign were to declare something like "The Grand Canyon was created by the hand of God", I'd strenuously object as that would be a statement of faith, not fact, a statement of religion, not science. And no, I don't believe statements of Science need to be balanced by statements of Religion - Science is NOT a religion, and therefore only should be balanced by other statements of science, if there are any opposing Scientific viewpoints (for example, the statement that Global Warming is mainly caused by levels of CO2 in the atmosphere could be balanced out by a statement that some scientists believe that the Sun is a greater cause of Global Warming). Statements of religion should be balanced by other statements of religion (or non-religion as the case may warrant). Before I close, two little side notes. Yes, Pluto is no longer a "Planet". However, it is now classified as a "Dwarf Planet", and is the most well known Dwarf Planet in the solar system, so I think we can rightfully still include Pluto in a depiction of the Planets, especially if we consider Pluto to be the representative of the Kuiper Belt, the string of Dwarf Planets at the far edge of our solar system. And, Astrononomy is the study of Celestial Objects, which include stars, moons, planets, comets, meteors, asteroids, black holes, nebula, etc. Therefore, this set of stones is an Astronomy display. But, if you want to be more precise, we can always call it a Planetary Studies display. Calico

I join the Lorax! I'll speak for the trees! Those fabulous, marvelous Truffula Trees! They breath our waste gases and give us fresh air! They keep public places from looking too bare! Harrumph to you Once-ler! We see through your disguise. You claim you're a Beavah, but that's just a lie. Cause everyone, everyone, everyone knows - that Beavahs need trees, even trees with bees knees! And Beavahs we know aren't Once-lers at all. Calico

I would define it as any extraordinary awards ceremony, or any special occasion where youth members are present as more than just an honor guard (except perhaps for memorial day/veterans day ceremonies), ie: Blue & Gold Dinners, Eagle Court of Honor, Troop Court of Honor (held instead of a Troop Meeting), Scout Sunday, Unit anniversary celebration (I would hope a unit would have a big celebration when they hit a 25, 50, 75 or 100 year milestone). I would not wear it at an adult awards ceremony (woodbadge beading, silver beaver, district award of merit) because youth would not normally be present at such an event (except perhaps as an honor or color guard), nor would I wear it at a parade or at an OA function like a Winter Banquet (because ranks don't have the same import in OA and aren't part of the OA experience - except for one pre-requisite). That's my opinion for what its worth.

In the "Things You Didn't Learn in School (because no one dared to teach it to you)" category: After the Revolutionary War, Christmas was not celebrated much in the United States because it was considered a British Holiday. It really didn't come back in favor again until the 1820's. Harriet Beecher Stowe included a character in her 1850 book "The First Christmas in New England" that complains that the true meaning of Christmas was lost in a shopping spree. Happy Holidays everyone. CalicoPenn

There is one requirement for continuing membership in the Order of the Arrow, said membership only available through the Lodge of one's council: "All members of the Lodge must be registered members of the Boy Scouts of America". Cub Scout Leaders, Venture Crew Members and Leaders, Boy Scouts and Boy Scout Leaders, District & Council Volunteers, even Merit Badge Counselors, are all registered members of the Boy Scouts of America (or should be). If you were a member of an OA Lodge at one time and find yourself registered in a the BSA again, you can pay your dues to the Council's Lodge (if you have your last membership card, bring it with) and become a member again - doesn't matter if you aren' involved in a Troop or Crew. Explorers and Explorer Advisors are not registered members of the Boy Scouts of America since Explorers are now part of Learning for Life and not the BSA, so are not eligible for membership in the Lodge. As for membership level, you would rejoin at your previous membership level. If you were an Ordeal member, you would register as an Ordeal member, etc, etc. Once you have earned or been honored with a higher membership level (you can earn the Brotherhood level, you can only be honored with the Vigil level), you can't lose that membership level. CalicoPenn

Merlyn, My remarks aren't racist - they're sexist, lookist and priviledgedist (anti-ugly desperate male). If anything, my assumption was that the ads were targeting males of every race, but especially those that are caucasion. I also intended my remarks to be a back-handed criticism of GW's remarks but, alas, it apparently went over like a lead balloon since sarcasm can be difficult to discern in the written word (not impossible, just difficult). I apologize to anyone I may have inadvertantly offended (especially if you're an ugly, desperate, toothless, fat, bald guy of any race) (oops, I did it again, didn't I?). I'll let those that care try to figure out just how sincere that apology is too. CalicoPenn

That's only fair, GW since the men that answer those ads have faces like rhinos, bellies bigger than their heads, less hair than a newborn and zealously guard their one remaining tooth. CP

Only 8 planets!? Why, by gum, the next thing you know those pesky scientists will tell us that Trans-fats are bad for us, or that the moon isn't made of cheese! I walked a "planet trail" at a state park in Wisconsin (Pike Lake State Park)similar to the one described for this project. At points along the trail were interpretive signs that talked about each individual planet. The signs were spaced to give an earth based scale of the distances between the planets - and it even included the asteroid belt as a stop. I wish the article gave more detail about the trail the scout put together - did it just have carved rocks representing the planets or is there some interpretation materials (signs, a trail guide) involved as well. Calico

Ozemu - Yule is the old Scandinavian winter festival, held in late December to Early January in honor of Thor. As far Northern Europe (aka Scandinavia) was the last place in Europe to be "Christianized" (Roman soldiers were no match for Scandinavian Warriors (aka Vikings)so the Holy Roman Empire wasn't able to convert using force, as they had elsewhere in Europe), certain traditions of the Yule were absorbed into and tolerated in the Church's Christmas Traditions, such as the Yule Log. Yuletide refers to the time of the Yule - the old Anglo-Saxon calendar had two 60-day periods known as "tides", one of which was in the summer and one of which was December/January. As far as the so-called war on "Merry Christmas": First, anyone who needs to hear "Merry Christmas" from a $10.00/hour retail store clerk who would say this hundreds of times a day and not mean it, needs to take a long and close look at their own lives. And second, when retail clerks (or anyone else for that matter) start responding to people who say "Merry Christmas" to them with 50-caliber gunfire, THEN you can call it a war - until that time, stop perpetuating this utter nonsense. Calico

Seems to me his position on the matter is the same position as Mainstream USA. Most people support the BSA, most people support the BSA's right to choose who can be members and most people would prefer it if the BSA would stop being so pig-headed and open their membership to gays and athiests, in not to girls too. CalicoPenn

Oh yeah....Olde Times Woodsman - I remember that stuff - you could tell a person wearing it was approaching you from 500 yards. On the other hand, it was great for crews coming in from the backcountry after a week with no showers (and even better for the Staff who could then approach the crew, screw up their faces and say "what in the Sam Hill is that awful stuff you're wearing - go take a shower before dinner" without offending the wearer). Calico(This message has been edited by CalicoPenn)

Let me see if I've got this right: 6 Committee Members - check 2 Committee Members that are almost always at Troop Meetings - check 1 Committee Member that is committed elsewhere during soccer season - check A member stating that BOR's shouldn't be done at Troop outing's - check. That leaves 3 other Committee Members that can serve on the BOR and can potentially be available during soccer season. It also suggests that you have at least 3 Committee Members attending most every Troop Outing, and at the same time suggests that there is a Committee Member who can't attend outings but likes being involved with BOR's. In my experience, larger units tend to have set meetings for BOR's (1st and 3rd meeting of the month, or whatever), as has been mentioned here already. Smaller units tend to do BOR's on demand. The question is what will work best for you. Some units schedule BOR's for completely different times than meeting nights (my personal opinion - a waste of time and resources - if you have everyone gathered at a meeting or outing, why not hold it there - taking a lad in for his BOR during meeting hours for a few moments won't disrupt the meeting that much). Factor in amount of time for a BOR - for instance, a BOR for a Tenderfoot to First Class shouldn't take more than 15 minute; Star and Life no more than 20 to 25 minutes - and I see possibilities. Have a committee member who always drops someone off at the meeting and need a BOR for a Tenderfoot? Maybe this person can spare 15 minutes before or at the beginning of the meeting (you can work a little around the Committee Member's schedules too - no need to have the Committee Members there for the entire meeting (unless they choose to be there) if there is only one 15-minute BOR that needs to be done. And if you have 3 Committee Members at a troop outing? I'd say use the resource and have the BOR. Heck - if the Scoutmaster is there too, and still needs to do the SM Conference - do that in the morning and the BOR in the afternoon or evening. If you have a parent willing to serve on BOR's, sign them up as a Committee Member. I personally prefer the "On Demand" style of BOR (with the understanding that "On Demand" doesn't mean "in 15 minutes from time of the request" but means a reasonable lead time (and 2 weeks does seem reasonable to me) mainly because it continues the momentum of advancement. It sounds like you may have the flexibility to offer BOR's at both Troop Meetings and at Troop Outings, as needed. Work with the flexibility but at the same time, remember to honor a committment to a Scout for his BOR. Only promise what you can deliver but deliver more than you promise - take our collective suggestions and talk amongst your committee members for a solution that works for all of you. Calico

Back in the 80's, the most successful Avon sales person in Maine was in Shin Pond (you will drive through it from Patten to Matagamon). The only product sold was Avon Skin-So-Soft - and it was sold right from the shelves of the little camp store at Shin Pond. I don't know if the store is still selling it (Avon wasn't happy with the "retail sales" aspect of this venture but couldn't argue with the success - and couldn't argue with the affects of Skin-So-Soft, which is why their insect repellent line is named Skin-So-Soft), but if they still do, you'll have a handy source for it if you aren't able to get it. Has anyone noticed a difference in the effectiveness of the original Skin-So-Soft and the Skin-So-Soft Insect Repellent line that Avon now makes? Calico

"(Scoutmaster), you got a lot of (excised) gall to ask me if I've rehabilitated myself! I mean . . . I mean . . . I mean that you send . . . I'm sittin' here on the bench . . . I mean I'm sittin' here on the Group W bench, 'cause you want to know if I'm moral enough to join the army, burn women, kids, houses and villages after bein' a litterbug" Denying or delaying rank advancement as a form of punishment is just bad form, in my opinion. And make no mistake, that is what is being talked about here - delaying advancement as a form of punishment. Had he already been through the BOR and approved for his Tenderfoot, would you take the rank away for a couple of months until he re-earned it? Frankly, this whole idea of hiding behind "Scout Spirit" to delay or deny rank reeks of adults playing power trips just because they can. The kid had a lapse - whats important is does he learn from it - and what can he do to make up for it. Delaying/Denying rank just tells a kid he has to be perfect all the time or he will never advance - and that doesn't serve the purpose of the program. Give the kid his BOR and his rank (it sounds to me that he was ready before this little outing) and come up with some other form of "behavioral correction" for the lad - a service project of some kind would likely have a much more positive effect. But, if you're sure that the proper course is to delay the rank advancement, then DON'T SCHEDULE THE BOR in the first place! Why bother to schedule a BOR if you're just going to suggest that the BOR withhold advancement? The only purpose would be to pass off the hard decision of appropriate discipline to another party - to let the BOR look like the bad guys instead of yourself. If you want to withhold the rank, then strp up to the plate, haven another SMC (you don't have to have them just for rank advancements) and explain that you - that YOU - are going to hold off on having the BOR scheduled for a set period. I'd also be trying to figure out just how the heck the lad was able to get spray paint at a camp out anyway? Calico

Back when I was at Matagamon Base, in addition to my full time job, I was also the bases Health Officer since I was the only EMT on staff (EMT-P). Part of my job was to review the health forms coming in, and to take every adults vitals (blood pressure, respiration, pulse) to compare them with the Doctor's readings on the forms they turned in - if the difference in readings was too great, there was a potential for the adult to be required to be left behind (fortunately, that never happened). During set-up week, I met with the local emergency room folks (local being about 1 1/2 hours away) to establish radio protocols for consultation. If my services were ever needed (and there were a couple of ocassions when it was), tele-radio contact was made with the emergency room so that I was operating properly under the control of a Doctor. Note that I met with the emergency room - not just the local family practitioner (who was much closer to the camp). The reason is most local practioners aren't fully up on trauma or emergency health issue protocols. Most camps are much better off with an EMT in the first aid hut than an RN (and I'm not trying to tick off any RN's) unless the RN is a Trauma RN. EMT's and Trauma RN's are trained in dealing with trauma and emergency medicine. Most RN's have limited trauma experience and training - great for monitoring meds, vitals, and handling minor first aid needs, but not trained to deal with trauma and emergency assessments. LongHaul - I'll bet dollars to donuts that your camps RN wasn't a trauma nurse - a trauma nurse or EMT would have performed an physical, hands on assessment for possible injuries to the lads chest and internal organs and would more often than not catch something that would tell them to send the lad off to the emergency room. I wouldn't be so quick to avoid the first aid hut if it has competent staff - and to answer LongHaul's original question - if in doubt, seek immediate help - either from your camp's EMT or from the emergency room. Calico