CalicoPenn

You are a parent of one of the youths involved. If you believe the touching was inappropriate, then it was inappropiate. You shouldn't need our opinions validate what you already believe to be true. You say you are working with this ASM to come to some kind of resolution. When it comes right down to it, you really only have two options available. 1: Work to expel him from the unit or have him criminally charged or in some other way punish him for this. Or 2: Forgive him and trust that it will never happen again - keeping a quiet eye on him for a time to see that the trust is not misplaced - and then move-on. You need to do what you think is right for your son and not worry about what we or anyone else thinks. Calico

After reading both of Crossram's posts, I get a different vibe from this. It sounds as if the CO may have determined that the school is a better fit as a sponsor of the Pack than the Church is - and just wants to move the Charter from the Church to its School, and the new DE isn't adept at getting the task done without causing unneeded angst among the Unit Leaders. My suggestion - contact the COR directly - not through the Troop, not through the Council - and just ask. And let us know how it goes. Calico

I can't let this statement stand without challenge: "There are more trees in North America than anytime in Geologic history" This statement is complete and utter hogwash! There is no way you can prove this statement as no has ever kept records of the number of trees that are or were in North America - we don't even do so now. We don't know how many trees are in North America today - we don't know how many trees were in North America 150 years ago (back when the folks that lived here said that a squirrel could climb a tree in Eastern Virginia and could travel to Western Kentucky without ever setting foot back on the ground). We don't know how many trees were in North America 10,000 years ago. Calico

Bob White, I have to disagree with you on the comparison to 4-H. I believe it is an aspt comparison. This is what 4-H says they do: 4-H is a community of young people across America who are learning Leadership, Citizenship and Life Skills. Sounds suspiciously like what the BSA does - teach Leadership, Citizenship and Life (including Outdoor) Skills. This is what the 4-H equivalent to the Scout Oath is: "I pledge my head to clearer thinking, my heart to greater loyalty, my hands to larger service and my health to better living, for my club, my community, my country, and my world." I can compare that to the Scout Oath and the only real differnce between the two is Duty to God. Do one's duty to country? It's in there, and adds community, and world! Help other people at all times? "I pledge...My hands to larger service" Keep Myself Physically Strong? "My health to better living" Mentally Awake? "Clearer Thinking" Morally Straight? "Greater Loyalty", "Clearer Thinking" and "Better Living" I'd say the purpose of the Boy Scouts and the purpose of 4-H is pretty much a match - how they go about delivering the purpose is the biggest difference, and not that much of a big difference at that. Calico

The Bureau of Land Management, an agency in the US Dept. of the Interior, might be a good place to start. They are responsible for managing wild Mustangs under the Wild Free-roaming Horse & Burro Act of 1971. I don't know what resources they have but they may have some educational materials and activities available. Calico

If I'm not mistaken, the Boy Scouts of America started gearing up to offer just this type of reorganized program. It was either called Scouting USA or Scouts USA. The name patch above the pocket on the uniform changed from Boy Scouts of America to Scouts USA or Scouting USA (or something like this - anyone with a better memory than I have please pipe up). The Boy Scouts of America was even in discussion with the Girl Scouts to combine and merge their programs to make this happen. It never fully formed - turns out, people didn't want it. Maybe it's time to try again, but I suspect, as in the past, that people don't really want it. Calico

Eric - right you are - I spaced that one. However, given a choice between Scientology and Pastafarianism, I'm gonna have to stick with Pastafarianism. Now if you will all open your Bibles to the ORIGINAL translation of Jeremiah and read with me: Jeremiah 1.1: Jeremiah was a bullfrog Jeremiah 1.2: Jeremiah was a good friend of mine Jeremiah 1.3: No one ever understood a word Jeremiah said Jeremiah 1.4: But Jeremiah never minded when we helped to drink his wine. Jeremiah 1.5: Oh yeah, Jeremiah always had some mighty fine wine. Jeremiah 2.1: Joy to the World Jeremiah 2.2: Joy to all the Boys and Girls now Jeremiah 2.3: Joy to the fishies in the deep blue sea Jeremiah 2.4: Joy to you and me. Calico(This message has been edited by CalicoPenn)

There seems to me to be a corallary question here as well - I think of it as the elephant in the room everyone hopes doesn't make itself known (and here I am about to prod the elephant). If faith disappeared from the Boy Scouts, would people (other than those in units that are truly meshed in with their faiths - Pappy's for instance) really notice a big difference? I'd argue that the most meaningless words in the Scout Oath and the Scout Law are "Duty to God" and "Reverent". Not that they don't have meaning, but that the majority of Scouts and Scouters just repeat the words because its tradition and in the Oath and Law without ever giving any real thought to them. I'd argue that although the BSA considers itself to be Non-sectarian and not Secular, the majority of Parents, Scouts and Scouters view Scouting through a secular lens - in effect making Scouting secular. How much of the fear that the BSA would lose units if they announced they were secular has anything to do with Faith and how much of the fear has to do with loss of membership/funds? I believe that Scouting is for the most part Non-sectarian in word and Secular in action for the majority of Units. If choosing to respond, I ask that everyone look beyond their own unit - to take a more global look. My thoughts on this come not from my experience with the units I have been involved with but with my experience in working with many different units over the years at the district, council and national level. Calico

Santa Claus isn't a deity? According to Wikipedia, a deity is a postulated preternatural or supernatural being, who is always of significant power, worshipped, thought holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, or respected by human beings. Santa Claus is a postulated (ie made up) preternatural being with significant power (anyone who can circle the globe delivering toys to millions of children from one sack of toys in a flying reindeer pulled sled squeezing his very chubby body into little chimneys to do so in one 24-hour period (ie Night - and its always night somewhere in the world has significant power), is worshipped by millions, thought sacred by millions, held in high regard and is respected by human beings. He may be prayed to more often that God is at a certain time of year. He meets the criteria - I'd say Santa Claus is a deity. Calico

Or why he didn't seek out the view of perhaps the most famous "leftist" Eagle Scout: Michael Moore So who do you suppose ghost wrote the book for a busy governor? Calico

Stosh, I can almost see that campfire now. Except CalicoPenn is short for the Calico Pennant Dragonfly, and has nothing to do with cats (I assume thats why you think this Eagle Scout is a "she"), I live in the Chicago area and the only time I would be yelling "Go Pack" is if I was in the Northwoods of Wisconsin surrounded by rapid Packers Fans holding chain saws and other implements of potential destruction, and oddly enough, though I'll cook with it, I don't drink beer. But I'll still hand you the best darn Brat you'll ever eat. And I much prefer the Red Beret to a polystyrene Cheese Hat, than you very much. As for Bobwhite's anlogy breaking down, I have to disagree - anyone who has ever tried to braise ground beef (and thats the cooking method used for Pot Roast - braising - but Pot Braise just doesn't sound very appetizing does it) knows that you end up with a gray, mushy lump that doesn't look, smell or taste very good. Indeed, the analogy is perfect - good on ya Bobwhite! Calico

Ay yi yi yi yi. First an argument about whether Mormons are Christian. Then an argument about whether the Catholic Church is the first and one, true church. You people are making it really easy for me to convert to Pastafarianism and the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster - the only religion to be founded by an Eagle Scout! Calico

Did your son get his Eagle?

I have a question: If we can't use wine in our camp beef stews, does that mean we can't use beer to soak our bratwurst, even if we soak it at home ahead of time? Gosh, if the answer is no, may as well just close up Scouting altogether in Wisconsin and Illinois, where no one who knows better would even attempt to cook bratwurst without first marinating it in a nice Beer & Onion bath. And don't tell us to just not cook bratwurst at camp - that would be more sacriligious than declaring that God is dead in these parts. I prefer a red wine in my pot roast, or if I want to get really fancy, a cheap cognac. Calico

I'd consider Costa Rica in the winter. River raft trips, hikes up active volcanoes, zip lines over the treetops in a rain forest, a visit to a cloud forest in Monte Verde, scuba diving and surfing in the Pacific Ocean, and learning about an entirely different way of life (in one small village, the highlight of the saturday night cruise down the main road was the young man in his backhoe - and he was quite popular with the ladies). Calico

Bill, Echoing what Oak Tree and ScoutNut have said - there is no minimum age or rank requirement to be a Den Chief or to receive Den Chief training. The BSA states in the job descriptions for Den Chief that they are an "older" scout (without ever defining what "older" means) and for Webelos Den Chief, recommends (but does not require) that they be at least 1st class and have once been a Cub Scout. This is what I would do (because I really dislike officious adults who use such terms as "national requirement" without pointing out the exact "requirement" to hold back interested Scouts). Ask the training leader to point out, in black and white verse from an official NATIONAL BSA publication that states a requirement of age and rank for Den Chief Training - and when he can't produce it (and he can't), hand him the Scouts registration for the training and tell him your Scout WILL be at the training, he WILL be treated well by the training staff, or you WILL go to the District/Council training chair and District/Council Chairman to file a formal complaint about his actions, and lack of Scouter Spirit. Or, if you'd rather not be confrontational, just register the Scout anyway and bring him to training. Calico

Prof: I protest!! (In my best Foghorn Leghorn voice): I declare, sir, I say I do declare, that you have insulted Pond Scum, and I demand an apology on behalf of Pond Scum everywhere! Bucket, indeed!! Everyone knows the answer is A Bucket of Pond Scum is more entertaining. Calico

My two - though one of them is a two parter because they are related - hope that's ok. 1) Bring back time in rank to advance from Tenderfoot to Second Class and from Second Class to First Class, and change time in rank back to 6 months from First Class to Star. Let's give the Scouts a chance to grow into their next rank. 2) a) Eliminate "mandatory" Merit Badges for Eagle (or any other rank) - let the Scouts choose the 21 Merit Badges they wish to earn, so that they are based on his interests. (Not suggesting that the Merit Badges themselves be eliminated, they should remain in the pool of available badges, just suggesting they not be mandatory). b) In place of the "mandatory" Merit Badges, bring back "Skill Awards" based on most of the "mandatory" Merit Badges, perhaps not as detailed but designed well to cover the material. Make it a requirement that one must earn 2 "Skill Awards" for every rank from Tenderfoot to Eagle - that covers the 12 "mandatory" Merit Badges (though I would combine the three Citizenship MB's into 1 Citizenship SA, giving room for a Cooking SA and one other). The 12 Skill Awards I'd suggest would be: First Aid, Camping, Cooking, Citizenship, Swimming, Personal Fitness, Communications, Environmental Science/Conservation, Family Life, Lifesaving/Emergency Preparedness, Pioneering/Orienteering, & Wilderness Survival. I'd not bring back the belt loops, instead, I'd suggest a small triangular patch - about the same size as a Merit Badge, that could be worn just like a Merit Badge. Calico

The argument that continuing to let the BSA use the building below market rate is a better option than the City taking over maintenance when the BSA moves out is a straw man argument as it assumes that the City won't turn around and lease the building to someone else for fair market rent, or to a non-profit that doesn't violate the City's non-discrimination ordinance at the current BSA terms. I haven't seen anything that says the City wants the BSA to move out because the City wants to use the building. I don't see any reason why the City wouldn't go ahead and market the building for lease to someone else, or for that matter to declare it surplus property and market it for sale. Let's not forget what Scoutmomma, who is on the ground in CoL has told us - the majority of the operations of the Council are done in the Valley Forge service center. From a business perspective, this could be the best thing that has happened to the CoL Council - since the City is reclaiming the building, CoL can now freely consolidate the rest of their operations which would be more cost effective, without having to be the party trying to end the Lease in Perpetuity. The City is ending the Lease with Cause (though many might argue the cause stinks, nonetheless, it likely meets the legal definition of "Cause" in Pennsylvania). If the CoL Council wanted to break the Lease because they just wanted to consolidate operations, they wouldn't have "cause" to do so and it would be much more difficult. As for additional negotiations by a savvy BSA negotiater, I suspect the City's position would simply be there would be no changes other than the imposition of Market Rent. The Lease is already an absolute net lease which makes the BSA responsible for everything, including renovations, repairs, replacement of the building, insurance - the works. I doubt that would change. Calico

Ranger Rick magazine, a publication of the National Wildlife Federation, often has stories about people doing things to help the planet, and it's age appropriate for Wolf. Your local library may have a subscription.

Info, You are, of course, quite correct. There are national standards for day camps, which are known as the National Standards for Local Council Accreditation of Cub Scout/Webelos Day Camps. However, this doesn't mean I'm not correct either. The National Camp Standards for Resident Camps is a wholly separate set of standards than the National Standards for Local Council Accreditation of Cub Scout/Webelos Day Camps. I should have made myself more clear that I was speaking only of the National Camp Standards for Resident Camps in my original reply. NYLT would only need to comply with the National Camp Standards for Resident Camps if the duration of the training session had at least 5 consecutive nights of camping, and if it was organized by Council.

I believe you're referring to the National Camp Standards for Resident Camps. National Camp Standards is an accreditation program to ensure that resident camps meet certain requirements as set forth by National. Some basics: National Camp Standards only applies to Council-organized Resident camps and reservations. It does not apply to District-organized camps or day camps, to individual Unit camps, to National High Adventure Base Camps or National-organized events such as Jamborees. National facilities have their own standards which pretty much mirror the National Camp Standards, but National doesn't accredit their own facilities - it's either up to snuff or the Base Executive is looking for a new job. The Standards checklist states "Resident implies that campers will be staying overnight at the facility" (I don't want anyone to think I'm the one stating that Resident implies that campers will be staying overnight - that is a direct quote from the checklist). Unless there is overnight camping being offered at a Council-organized Day Camp, the NCS doesn't apply to Day Camps, and even then, it has to be 2 consecutive nights (so it wouldn't apply if Cubs camped only one night, or camped on Tuesday and Thursday night with Wednesday night spent at home). There is specific overnight stay requirements as well. For Cub Scouts, a Resident Camp is a Council-organized camp of at least two consecutive nights duration. For Boy Scouts, a Resident Camp is a Council-organized camp of at least five consecutive nights duration. Unless the OA Ordeal, or NYLT is going to be at least 5 nights long, it doesn't qualify as a Resident camp. The National Camp Standards aren't driven by the facility, they're driven by the activity. Council can organize a 4 night Boy Scout camping trip to one of their summer camps and it wouldn't be considered a Resident Camp. Council can organize a 5 night Boy Scout camping trip to a National Park and that would be a Resident Camp that would be required to meet the National Camping Standards. Since NCS doesn't apply to short term camps (except for the aforementioned Council-organized Cub Scout campouts), the same camp safety guidelines that apply to District Camporees and Troop Campouts would apply. Most Councils, however, have probably got most of the items on the NCS checklist covered even for short term camps. Calico

Though I certainly agree with the thought behind the plea, I can't make the pledge because I know that there will be times when I can't follow it. Since a Scout is Trustworthy, it would seem to me that making a pledge I'm unlikely to keep would not be trustworthy. While most of the time use of encouragement to try things the BSA way is appropriate, there are times when we may need to be far more aggressive in our approach - and I think most who have read any of my posts know that I believe those times are when someone needs to come to the defense of the Scouts. I refer to challenging those martinets that use their adult leadership positions to hold down a Scout instead of lifting them up, who make up obscure rules of their own for rank advancement - or who nitpick a rule instead of following the spirit of the rule when flexibility is called for. I know I have come fiercely to the defense of Scouts on this forum, to the point of calling for so-called leaders to resign and stay home, and I think (and hope) that I've only been that fierce when defending Scouts - and I suspect I may do so a few more times as the days go by. Calico

On 3/02/07, it was announced by the US Government that enforcement of the provisions that apply to the states (which is really the meat of the Act, since that portion is about ID's and Drivers Licenses) would be postponed until March of 2009. On January 11 of 2008, it was announced that the enforcement of those provisions would be delayed even further, until sometime in 2011 - presumably to get more support for the act from the States. As it stands now, the majority of the States have passed resolutions, or have resolutions pending, opposing the Real ID Act. Only a few states have made any progess on adopting Real ID. Though California is one of the states that has made progress in implemeting Real ID, it should be noted that Illinois, New York, Pennsylvania, Georgia and Texas are among the states that are opposing the act. Why is this significant? Georgia and Illinois have the two busiest airports in the country. New York and Texas also have very busy airports. All of these states account for a significant amount the US's GDP. In other words, these are the states that drive the vast majority of business in the country - the major markets are in New York and Illinois. If these states were to hold to their positions and defy the Feds on this legislation, it could trigger a massive economic slump that would make the Great Depressions of the 1800's and 1930's look like cakewalks. I suspect the real reason for the delay in enforcement until 2011 is to leave it to the next President to work with Congress to quietly repeal most of the provisions of the act (which seems to have been slipped into another bill without much debate) thus allowing the current administration to "save face" on yet another mistake they made. So le Voyageur, given that implementation has been delayed until 2011, maybe you can stick around for a few more years. Calico

How will protesting US policies by dropping out of the BSA help? Just curious, not trying to be snarky. Calico