CalicoPenn

Hey Buffalo Joe - welcome to the forum. As you're working on a wiccan/pagan award, you might want to check out the Hart & Crescent award administered by the Covenant of the Goddess (cog.org). In the early 90's, the Covenant of the Goddess approached the BSA and asked that it be recognized as part of the religious awards program - the BSA declined, then passed a rule that said a religious organization must charter at least 25 units before its religious award would be recognized. Of course, that's well within the BSA's right to do so. However, the Hart & Crescent award is as stringent a religious award as those recongnized by the BSA. If I had a lad in my unit who earned the Hart & Crescent, I would award it to him in a court of honor, along with the square knot anyway. I earned religious awards for three different religions when I was a Scout, and none of them was for my own religion - Wicca. When I went through my BOR for Eagle, I was asked the "God" question and spoke of my spirituality as it related to my freely chosen Wiccan religion. My Eagle was denied by the BOR because I was a Wiccan and not a "Christian". Of course, my Eagle was awarded on appeal, and I got the satisfaction of hearing my Explorer Post Advisor, a lay minister in his church, rip into the BOR members about the meaning of the word Reverent and how they had failed the BSA program. To the best of my recollection, none of the BOR members were ever allowed to serve in an Eagle BOR in that council again. Calico

Forgive me for being a bigger nerd but Ketchup is indeed Thixotropic, or more accurately a Pseudoplastic Fluid showing Thixotropic properties. That means its decreases its viscosity with an increasing shear rate. In other words, it becomes more fluid as it is shaken. A Dilatant Fluid increases its viscosity with an increasing shear rate - an increase in viscosity means the fluid gets thicker. A good example of this would be a corn starch/water mixture. The more you shake it, the thicker the fluid becomes. The key is to remember that an Increase in Viscosity means a Decrease in Fluidity and a Decrease in Viscosity means an Increase in Fluidity. High viscosity liquids are thicker and slower running than low viscosity liquids. One of the highest viscosity liquids known to man, if not the highest, is Glass. Glass is not, despite appearances to the contrary, a solid. Glass is a liquid. It continues to flow even when set into its "final" form. It just flows very, very (very, very - can't type in enough very's) slowly. A great place to see an example of this is in Boston, at some of the 200+ year old houses in the Back Bay. If you can find an original window, you'll see that the glass pane is thicker at the bottom than it is at the top. And I'll take Star Trek Technobabble for $1,000 please Alex. Calico

The Arrow of Light is awarded by the Cub Scout Pack - not by the Boy Scout Troop. There is no Boy Scout Troop Board of Review before the awarding of a Cub Scout Award. The conference with the Scoutmaster as part of the Arrow of Light awards is not the same as a "Scoutmaster Conference" needed to advance in rank in the Boy Scouts. The AOL conference with the Scoutmaster need not be any more difficult than a 1 minute conversation with the Lad about his interest in Scouting and his plans to join a troop. Note also that the requirements do not state that the lad has to have this conference with the Scoutmaster of the Troop the lad ends up joining. He only needs to have this conference with "a" Scoutmaster. None of those 17 boys may have had a conference with you, but that doesn't mean they didn't have that conference with another Scoutmaster. And even if the Webelos Den Leader fudged on that requirement, there is nothing that you, as the Scoutmaster, can do about it. The award was granted by the Pack - it's earned and can't be taken away. The original question was simple - a Scoutmaster asked about an AOL Board of Review before a group of Webelos crossed over. The answer is simple as well. There is NO SUCH THING as an Arrow of Light Board of Review. The Webelos Den Leader certifies that the Webelos has met all the requirements, and once certified, the Arrow of Light is awarded. Scout Troops have no say in the awarding of the Arrow of Light - none what so ever. CalicoPenn

Board's of Review are held for Boy Scout Rank advancements. Arrow of Light is a Cub Scout Award. It isn't awarded by a Troop, so a Troop wouldn't be giving a Board of Review for it. Once an award is earned, it's earned. A future unit, in this case a Boy Scout Troop, has no ability to re-affirm an award by holding a Board of Review. The same would hold true for a Scout who transfers from one Troop to another as a First Class Scout. The new Troop doesn't get to hold a Board of Review to decide if the lad gets to keep his First Class. Calico

I'm sooo confused - I have so many questions. How was it possible for the Lodge Adviser to change the dates of the Ordeal, and for the second Lodge Adviser to change them back? It's not up to the Lodge Adviser to make these decisions - its up to the Lodge Youth Leaders. The Lodge Adviser can make the suggestion, but its ultimately the Lodge Chief and his cabinet of officers (including the Chapter Chiefs) to make the decision. And no, the Lodge Adviser doesn't get "veto power". How can the numbers be so much different between summer camp Ordeals and spring and fall Ordeals. Theoretically, you're electing the same number of people. Is the lodge area so big that people can't make time to attend at least one weekend of service? If it is that large, do you hold the spring and fall ordeals in two different places so you can reach as many people as possible? How is it even possible to make up the loss of numbers of all the Units that don't attend the Council's summer camp unless election standards weren't being followed? If numbers are still a concern, can the Lodge do summer camp AND spring and fall ordeals? I know of many Lodges that hold ordeals at summer camp but also hold at least one spring or fall event for those that don't attend the Council's summer camp? Is being a "Quality Lodge" a goal of the Youth Leadership or of the Adviser? If the Youth Leadership aren't concerned about being named a "Quality Lodge" then why the push? And who really cares what "Section" wants anyway. The Section is there to offer opportunities for fellowship and training - it has nothing to do with the operations of Lodges. The next time they start pressuring you to bring your numbers up to become a "Quality Lodge", politely, but firmly, tell them to "Go Scratch". The Lodge Leadership's primary responsibility is to the current and future members of the Lodge. It's up to them to make the program work for the benefit of its members and the Council. If the Lodge Leadership feels its offering a quality program, then congratulate yourselves and keep it up. Calico

Wow, Packsaddle (and NC) - I'm impressed! Not many people know that Broccoli and Cauliflower, two completely different looking vegetables, are actually the same species! Even fewer know that Kale, Collard Greens, Cabbage, Brussels Sprouts and Kohlrabi, also all completely different looking vegetables, are also of the same species as Broccoli and Cauliflower. Every single one of them are of the Oleracea species of the Brassica genus - all of them share the scientific name Brassica oleracea. It's pretty obvious that NC is telling us that Scouts are Scouts no matter what they look like. Cub Scouts look completely different from Boy Scouts, but they're still the same species - Scouts. Great analogy! Calico

Scoutldr, It's time to mail that Eagle medal to the Eagle Scout you've not heard from in a while. It was earned by him and it belongs to him. Just pop it in a box and mail it off, or hand deliver to his home. There is really no reason why the unit should be holding on to it. Calico

Slippery Slope. It makes it harder to deny a request by Representative Kent Lambert, Senator David Schultheis, and Representative Terrance Carroll (all Eagle Scouts)for Scouts and Scouters to appear in uniform for some future events - not that any of these gentlemen asked for uniformed Scouts and Scouters to appear at this one. This is much different from Scouts going to the capitol to fulfill a merit badge requirement, or a unit taking a tour of the state capitol - this is a plea from this Council to request that Scouts and Scouters insert themselves into the legislative process for a particular piece of legislation. Calico

You're absolutely right, it might not be very Scout like. Lisa recently posted a question about what we do for a living. I hadn't answered but now would be a good time to do so. I am a counseling psychologist for a non-profit organization. I specialize in counseling gay and lesbian youth, and their families, as they come to grips with their sexual orientation. Over the last 3 months, I've been counseling a young man, 17 years old, who tried to take his own life. He was a Boy Scout, earned the Eagle Rank, and was an honors student in school, as well as a respected student athlete, who also happens to be gay. After he confided in his pastor that he might be gay, word got out to his Scoutmaster and the Troop Committe (sponsoring organization is the church) who held a "ceremony" in front of this young man's troop where his uniform was "ceremoniously stripped" of his badges of rank and honor, utterly humiliating the lad. His father's reaction to this affront was that the boy deserved what he got. Word spread of this little stunt of an SOB Scoutmaster beyond the Troop into school. Things snowballed from there to the point where this fine young man felt the only way out was to end his own life. Fortunately, he survived, though he came pretty close to succeeding. So given this, you'll have to forgive me if I'm refusing to be more "Scout like" when I take umbrage at the kind of bigoted claptrap that is becoming increasingly common on this forum. Or don't forgive me, I really don't care. I will stand here and continue to point out the bigotry that is infusing some of these posts. Frnakly, I can't think of anything more Scout like than taking people to task for their bigotry, can you? Calico

I never requested that I be given any kind of heads up before someone posted something. I only asked what the point of the posting was. Fred often posts things blind in the Politics section but what he posts is generally related to Scouting, or to some subject that might impact Scouting. This posting doesn't appear to do either. Women only hours at a gym in Harvard don't seem to have any impact on Scouting at all, unless you would like to bolster Scouting's policies by making a point about free association, and the rights of private organizations to make rules that discriminate against a segment of the population because they have the right to do so. I think you answered that question quite well - given your political viewpoint, the answer fit in with what I thought it might be, but I did not want to assume anything. I really wonder if you would have posted this article if it didn't involve the "boogy monster" religion of the day. If it was just a group of women, with no other qualifier, would it have been something that piqued your interest enough to post on the forums? If anyone fully supports the BSA in their lawful discrimination against gays, lesbians and athiests, then I dare say you should be coming out and saying you fully support Harvard in this part-time discrimination against men on behalf of women. After all, Harvard is a private organization with a right to free association as well. And if taxpayer dollars are being used to help fund the operations of the gym, then it shouldn't matter, at least if folks are going to be true to the argument that there is an overall good to be gained even if the end result is some discrimination. I would suspect, then, that we should all be in common agreement, that Harvard is doing a good thing by setting aside times for women-only workouts, even if our various reasonings may be different. I suspected, however; and believe I was ultimately proven correct, that the real purpose was to provide a launching pad for the expression of misogynistic and xenophobic views common to many euro-centric white males who seem to cower in fear over any changes in society that just might make our society stronger but at the expense of a tradition of being seen as in charge. The mantra of "special rights" and "special treatment" is utter bullpuckey and is the last refuge of a dying breed of backwards thinking bigots (which is my opinion, of course). Calico

I wasn't commenting on anyone's replies to the original posting, only questioning what the point of the posting itself was. However, it seems to me that many of the replies bear out the validity of the question. Even the title of the thread leads me to the thought that this posting is part of the politics of the divisive, the politics of the "angry (read neutered) white man". Why is it that only "Male Muslims" are pointed out to be possibly hypocritical in not asking for "male only" time, and not all males? Why, in fact, are "Male Muslims" even mentioned at all - because the folks who requested some female-only time happen to be Muslim too? I see nothing in the article that states that non-Muslim females can't use the gym during the female only hours - do you? Why is it that when we accomodate peoples religious and cultural traditions, it makes them somehow "special" yet we fail to recognize that when we accomodate the primary religious and cultural traditions in this country, it's somehow "normal and not special"? The United States pretty much shuts down on Christmas Day - don't tell us that we aren't making accomodations for non-Muslim religions. Why is it that we're so willing to accept ignorance of other traditions and cultures as having any validity in advancing an argument (Female Muslims can exercise????) when one of the most discussed points of the Scout Law is a virtual roadmap to guide us in learning about, understanding, and tolerating others? That's my only point. Calico

So he has bought an engineered car off of e-bay for the past two years? Or is he using the same car over and over again? One rule that is pretty standard is that a boy will have a new car every year. One pack I know of had a winning category for the slowest car. Others have huge prizes, as Lisabob suggests, for such things as most original design, best Pack spirit (car decorated to show pride in Pack/Den), most futuristic, etc. I've heard of a couple of packs that place an indelible identifying mark on one of the wheels before handing out the kits to be worked on - the mark must remain visible on the wheel in order for the car to be eligible to run for prizes in the race. One pack I know of that was having issues with adults taking the competitition too seriously and forgetting that it is supposed to be about parent/child binding and fun was fortunate enough to have a mechanical engineer who put together a "track testing" car using the equipment in his lab. He did absolutely nothing to the body of the car at all, not even paint, so it looked like he had just glued the axles to the blank car block. Except, using his tools, he was able to true up the wheels and axles to perfect rounds. Not a single built car beat that "test car" in speed for the next 3 years. Unfortunately, there will always be parents who take shortcuts - who forget that Pinewood is about parent/child bonding and fun. All you can really do is be ready with genuine, effusive praise for the lads who, with (or without) their fathers (or mothers), have put in the effort on their car (and it will be obvious) even (especially) if they don't win. In 20 or so years, you won't be on this forum reminiscing about the guy who bought a car off e-bay to win a race, but you can be sure you'll remember the big smile you caused to appear on the face of a cub scout who comes in holding a rudimentary, scout built pinewood car when you have praised him and his car as the best of the lot, and have meant it. Calico

I don't get the point of this thread. It seems like it's just tossed out there for folks to pounce on with their mysogynistic and anti-Muslim views like a pack of ravenous hyenas. Calico

My question would be is there a particular reason why boys that are not already First Class by Summer Camp also can't work solely on Merit Badges at Summer Camp and not work on any rank advancement skills? I mean no offense (and welcome to the forum!) but it sounds, at first blush, that the way your Troop is doing T to FC is pretty much the way I mentioned some Troops doing the First Class/First Year emphasis - running a New Scout Patrol more like a Webelos Den than a Boy Scout Patrol. While I won't say that this is absolutely wrong (there are many variations on how Troops run their programmatical elements), I will humbly suggest that it short changes the boys as the emphasis is on advancement on a schedule rather than advancement at one's own pace. Like Bobwhite did, I also picked up on the "Our Goal" statement. Has there been given any thought to what the Boy's Goals are? Bobwhite has suggested training - it wasn't meant as a snarky comment - many of us suggest folks get training quite often within the forum - because it provides a foundation from which to work. Many of us have come from exactly where you are now - transitioning from the Cub Scout program to the Boy Scout program - training really does help highlight the differences between the philosophies of the two programs. And quite a few of us have come up from the ranks from Bobcat (and Tiger for some) to Adult Leader and have experienced the program from lad to leader, and still remember those experiences from when we were lads oh so many years ago. For instance, I'm in my 40's and remember that I crossed over from Webelos to Boy Scouts in November (this was back in the days when Webelos was a one year program) and my first Boy Scout meetings were spent lashing together pine tree sleds for the Klondike Derby). So please, don't take offense if we make the suggestion. We do so out of experience. Calico

Not every Troop sets their annual planning for September - that is much more common in Cub Scouts. PLC's may have an annual planning event just about any month of the year, depending on the Troops schedule. Often, its set around the Troop's elections for SPL, so that the new SPL is leading the process. Troops also don't always run by a School Calendar, like Cub Scout Packs tend to do. Troops are active year round, many of them continue to meet on a weekly basis in the summer, though many may choose not to have their weekly meetings the same month as Summer Camp, and some may switch to a bi-weekly meeting during June, July and August. Most Troops also don't tend to view their programs as a build-up to Summer Camp. Every outing is as important as the last - whether its a week long trek through part of the Appalachian Trail, or a weekend District Camporee. Troop advancement and programs aren't set by a theme, as it is in Cub Scouts. In Cub Scouts, Dens and Packs are encouraged to follow a thematic approach to advancement - with every month of meetings during the school year corresponding to a specific set of achievements, electives and Webelos activity pins. Boy Scout advancement is a continuous process, and each Scout sets his own pace. Troops shouldn't be setting an advancement program so that in September, every Scout will earn the First Aid Merit Badge, then in October, every Scout will earn the Aviation Merit Badge. Troops should be offering skills training in their meetings, not working on merit badge requirements. A Troop may offer a session on knot tying at one meeting, but its up to the Scout to decide if he wants to take advantage of that opportunity to get sign off an a rank requirement. He can choose to do it another time. Rank advancement in the Boy Scouts is very much self-directed, although the First Class, First Year emphasis often leads some Troops to schedule their New Scout Patrol as if it were a Webelos Den. In any given Troop, you'll find boys at many different stages of advancement, all working together and intermingling. There are some Boy Scout Troops out there that might bundle Canoeing Merit Badge work with a Canoeing Day Trip and then a Canoeing Overnight, (which may indicate a relatively young, adult led Troop run by former Webelos and and Den Leaders who helped to start the Troop up) but most don't do so. The biggest problem in Boy Scout Troops with escalating programs leading to a grand adventure, then starting all over again, is that after a while, the older Scouts - Star, Life & Eagle - will have gone through such a cycle a couple of times before and will lose interest and become bored. With Cub Scouts, its not as big of a problem because with the start of every school year, they start working on a new rank. Most Troops should be ready to accept new Scouts at any time. If a Troop is telling a Pack that they will only accept crossovers in a specific month, my suggestion would be look at other Troops before committing to this one. Again, the requirements to become a Boy Scout are: Be 11 years old OR finish the 5th grade OR earn the Arrow of Light. We shouldn't be waiting until the next "school year" to crossover an 11 year old AOL earner who finished 5th grade in June. Calico

Let's take a look at the requirements to become a Boy Scout. In order to become a Boy Scout, a boy must either: Be 11 years old, OR completed the 5th grade OR earn the Arrow of Light. For a March crossover, I imagine the key here is Earn the Arrow of Light. Many packs time their Webelos Program so that most eligible Webelos are awarded their Arrow of Light at the Blue and Gold - the Big award ceremony of the year. Once those Webelos have earned the AOL, they can join a Scout Troop. While they can technically be crossed over in February, many Packs delay the crossover to March so that it doesn't detract from the big show that is Blue & Gold. March also gives the boys (and their parents) just about enough time to make a decision on attending summer camp and prep for it. That's better for retention too, since the new Scout will have experienced summer camp as one of his first outings with the Troop, instead of waiting almost a year for that adventure. A well-organized, well-run Troop shouldn't have to throttle back every time they bring in a "New Scout Patrol", nor should they. They'll be ready to integrate those new Scouts and keep moving forward. Calico Calico

As John says, you can only be a member of one Lodge. You would wear the Lodge flap of the Lodge you are registered in, and yes, you can wear that Lodge Flap on your District Committee shirt even if that District isn't within the Council that your Lodge is in. The Lodge Flap indicates active membership in a Lodge (and active means....dues paying). John presents a good option should you desire not to offend folks in the other District (and gosh knows who might be offended by it), and that's to wear the Universal Arrow. As far as I know, that device can also be worn if you completed the Ordeal and let your OA membership lapse. Vigil Honor members may attach a special pin to the ribbon to indicate the honor received. Calico

I guess we'll just have to agree that we have a different definition of what the word "All" means. Calico

Maybe I was being too obtuse in one of my answers. In this specific case, it is highly unlikely that any kids will miss out. The city sponsors Police and Fire Explorer Posts (which are part of LFL). They don't sponsor these units blindly, as many sponsors (including schools at one time) do - they aren't just a place that signs paperwork once per year and maybe provides a place to meet and store equipment. No - these LFL units are Police and Fire Department cadet units - not only does the City (through its individual police and fire stations) sponsor these units, all of the adult leaders are active-duty City of LA police and fire department employees - working out of the station that the cadets meet in. It is extremely unlikely that the City of LA will fold its Police and Fire Cadet programs because all of a sudden, they can't associate with LFL. Interestingly enough, the Commissioners of the LAPD has been pushing for the department to end ties with LFL for a while now, and have been doing so since before this letter from LL. It seems the only reason the department brass can come up with for their reluctance is that their cadets won't be eligible to play in the National Explorer Post competitions anymore - that seems to be the sum total of the benefit they're able to point to. As for the idea that the ACLU is trying to bend the BSA to its will, I say, Utter Hogwash. It isn't about bending the will of the BSA, its about making sure the BSA sleeps in the bed it made, that the BSA follow the same rules that everyone else needs to follow. The dumbest thing the BSA did in the past 15 years was tell a Boy Scout Troop in New Jersey that they couldn't have a former Eagle Scout as an Assistant Scoutmaster because he happened to be gay. At that moment, the BSA started down a set of Class V rapids it hadn't thoroughly scouted. They pulled out a scorched earth defense - private religious organization, and ended up burning themselves in the process. They declared themselves a religious organization - all the ACLU is doing is ensuring that they be treated just like every other religious organization. To paraphrase EarthFirst: "No Compromise in the Defense of the 1st Amendment" Calico

Court Case in Chicago - Man files complaint with Human Rights Commission because Chicago Council does not hire him based solely on his sexual orientation. BSA admits this is the case. National BSA states that it is the policy of BSA not to hire gays and lesbians for the job person applied for. Human Rights Commission rules that BSA violates non-discrimination law. BSA appeals on the grounds it is a private religious group and is therefore exempt, under the religious exemption clause. States again that it is policy of the BSA not to hire gays and lesbians. Illinois Court of Appeals rules in favor of the BSA. As the BSA has stated this is policy in a Court of Law, we must accept that this is the policy of the BSA. If not, the BSA committed perjury if they stated it was policy when it is not. Now - before those who are ready to celebrate the BSA's victory start to celebrate, the victory turned into a pyhhric victory at best. Shortly after the Illinois Appellate Court ruling, Illinois ACLU sent the City of Chicago a letter pointing out that since the BSA is considered a religious organization, it would be unconstitutional for city agencies, including the schools, to sponsor BSA units. It didn't take long for the City to agree. In fact, the City didn't even bother to put up a token fight. (I suppose it doesn't help when the BSA's spokesman is asked on the stand if the BSA would find a person who was a Grand Marshall of a Pride Parade, and supported gay rights at every turn to be an unfit role model and the BSA spokesman says that this person would not be someone the BSA would consider to be a fit role model for Scouts - without knowing that the person in question was the Mayor of Chicago. Ooops.) As for "where is the harm" to gays and lesbians (or to athiests) if government does indirectly discriminate against them because many more people will benefit, I'm reminded of a saying (paraphrased): When they came for the Jews, it didn't affect me so I didn't speak up, when they came for the Gypsies, it didn't affect me so I didn't speak up, when they came for the blacks, it didn't affect me so I didn't speak up, when they came for me, there was no one left to speak up in my defense, and there was nothing I could do but be sent away to die. When government, either directly or indirectly discriminates against any class of people, it discriminates against all. How horrid it must be for some people to learn that some people take "Government for all the people" to mean "Government for ALL the people" and that "ALL" includes everyone, even gays, lesbians and athiests. How unfair it must seem to you that people actually fight to make sure that government really is for ALL the people. Where's the harm? The harm is that by allowing discrimination, even if for the "good reason" that many people will benefit, government becomes reduced to a government for some of the people, and not for all of the people as it should be. Calico

They were call Skill Awards. You can find the requirements for the Skill Awards in any Boy Scout Handbook circa 1972-1989. There were 12 Skill Awards in all - and they covered basic skills. There were requirements to earn a certain number, as well as certain types to earn T, SC, & FC ranks. Many of those requirements have been re-integrated into the current rank requirements. The 12 Skill Awards were: Camping, Citizenship, Communications, Community Living, Conservation, Cooking, Environment, Family Living, First Aid, Hiking, Physical Fitness and Swimming. I earned all 12 of them as a Scout. Trivia fact: The Original First Aid Skill Award had a red cross on it. The cross was later changed to a green cross. Calico

Nothing can be done? That's a rather defeatist attitude. There are, in fact, a couple of things I can think of right off the bat that can be done. For instance, the study states the three contaminants of highest concern are Mercury, DDT and Dieldrin. DDT has been banned from use in the United States since 1972. Dieldren since 1987. So where is it coming from? The story tells us its coming in from the atmosphere. How can that be if its been banned in the US? Simple - other countries. There is no universal ban on DDT or Dieldren - the US is way ahead of the curve on that one. Both of these chemicals are still being used in other countries - and that use is contaminating our atmosphere and in turn, its traveling by air current to our Western Parks (and if its getting into our Western Parks, its getting other places out West as well). Solution? The US can lead a fight at the UN for a Worldwide Ban of both chemicals. Of course, the US could have done so a long time ago too but a lot of these chemicals are produced by US corporations so we haven't rocked the boat. We lack the will to stand up and tell the corporations to stop polluting our atmosphere with your junk. Same goes with the Mercury issue - also coming in from the atmosphere, mostly from coal burning plants. Solution? Enforce laws requiring scrubbers in the smoke stacks of power plants in the US and push for a treaty requiring coal fired power plants worldwide to install scrubbers. The technology already exists to pull most heavy metals from the power plant exhausts - we just need the will to make it happen. Calico

Question: Who will take the place of LFL in running these programs? Answer: The City of LA. If we stop and think about what LFL programs the City of LA sponsors, we'll realize they are Police and Fire Explorer posts. Who actually runs these Explorer Posts? City of LA Police and Fire Stations. Who are the advisers? City of LA Police Officers and Fire Fighters. Now let's think about this for a second (and it's something I've wondered about in the past). Exactly what value does Police and Fire Department Cadet programs get by also being part of LFL, by being an Explorer Post?? Is there anything that these cadet programs will actually lose by being brought in house, without belonging to LFL? I wondered about this back when Exploring was part of the BSA and the only benefit Police and Fire Posts got from their association with the BSA, as far as I could tell, was recruitment and insurance coverage. I don't see LFL being a big boon to recruitment, and insurance coverage costs may not be that big of an expense for the City of LA. If they need these folks to be associated with a non-profit in some way, then there is always the Police and Fire Department Unions that could step up to the plate. Question: Does the LA Council actively discriminate in their employment practices? As the LA Council is bound by BSA National Policies, the answer is Yes. The BSA does discriminate in their employment policies, and has even fired well-regarded professionals when it has been learned, or even intimated, that the professional is gay. While they may or may not be allowed to discriminate in employment for clerical or administrative staff, they are allowed to discriminate in employment for DE, SE, and Program staff. There is no argument to be made that because they don't discriminate in clerical and administrative staff, that they should get a pass - as long as they discriminate in employment of any one or more class of employee, they discriminate. Further, there no one can seriously argue that because SCOTUS allows them to discriminate, that this means its ok in all cases. Just because the BSA can discriminate in hiring, doesn't mean that cities, states, or organizations that clearly state they will not do business with anyone that discriminates are required to ignore their own rules to accomodate an organization that can legally discriminate otherwise. Question: Is LFL affiliation a "Contract" with the City of LA? Possibly - while most of us think of a contract as "Entity A" gives "Entity B" a certain sum to perform "Service C", exchanging of funds is not always neccessary to form a contract. In addition, "Entity A" doesn't neccessarily need to be the persons exchanging funds. They could be the catalyst for allowing "Entity B" to collect money from "Entity C", especially if "Entity C" is only giving money to "Entity B" because of "Entity C's" affiliation with "Entity A". Translation - LFL collects dues money from an Explorer Post Police Cadet which they wouldn't have gotten unless the Cadet becomes a member of the Post. In addition, it can be argued that LFL gets a benefit by being able to link their name and program with the City of LA. Question: Gays and Lesbians want a "license to do whatever they choose, even at the expense of the majority". Seriously, I'm questioning what this statement means? What is it that you think gays and lesbians want that will come at the expense of the majority? Special Gay and Lesbian only drive lanes on highways? Police Officers that only answer 911 calls from Gays and Lesbians? 2 for 1 coffee days at the local Starbucks for Gays and Lesbians only? Gays and Lesbians can build 200 foot cell phone towers in anyplace they choose regardless of zoning laws, even in the parkway on your street? And please don't tell me "Marriage". If that's your answer, I want to know, beyond "But it's against Tradition" exactly how gays and lesbians marrying will hurt your marriage or your ability to get married. Question: Can Non-profits have Subsidiaries. Answer: Yes. Is LFL a subsidiary of the BSA? Yes. LFL was created and is owned by the BSA. It operates it's local offices out of local BSA Council offices. Question: Isn't it enough that an organization serves all people, must it also be free of discrimination in employment? Answer: In a word, YES. We should all be fighting to ensure that no American is discriminated against for anything, and part of that fight is never accepting the rationale of "well, they're only discriminating a little and that's ok because they're doing so much good". Sorry, any good they may be doing is tainted by their discriminatory practices. The BSA should be leading the way in fighting discrimination, in ensuring that EVERYONE is treated equally and fairly, at all times - not entrenching in untenable positions. To continue to fight for so-called "traditional values" while the world has passed you by, is the essence of Don Quixoteism. Society grows when they challenge traditional values - had we never challenged traditional values, we might all still believe that the Earth revolves around the sun, and might still believe that slavery is ok, and that women should never work outside the home. Calico Edited to add a missing "Is" - and we all know how important Is is.(This message has been edited by CalicoPenn)

This shouldn't really be a surprise to those of us who have been following this issue from the beginning. Learning from Life was "spun off" from the BSA as a result of Dale, specifically because the BSA knew that they would have issues down the road based on non-discrimination in public schools and public entities if they didn't Exploring was placed in Learning for Life to protect Police, Fire and School sponsored Explorer Posts. When the BSA did this, many of us asked how long it would take before there was a challenge to Learning for Life as the consensus seemed to be at the the time that it was a pretty transparent ploy by the BSA. Looks like that wandering cow has come back to the barn, as expected. Calico

I understand where you're coming from, but the call-out example doesn't help your case. Once the election is held, a Scout has 1 year to attend his Ordeal. There is no requirement that the Scout go through a call-out first. A call-out, while a fine tradition (and one I encourage), is optional. Calico