CalicoPenn

I don't think the problem is people needing to be expert naturalists in order to lead units into the woods. The biggest problem is people have a very hard time saying the three most difficult words in the English language: "I don't know". The second biggest problem is one that has been infered by others - the "little bit of knowledge makes one dangerous" approach. I am a Naturalist - some would call me an "Expert" Naturalist because my undergrad degree is in Environmental Education with an emphasis in Outdoor and Experiential Education. If you were to take me along with your Troop through habitats I'm most familiar with - mostly from Illinois Oak-Hickory Forests and Tallgrass Prairies to the Boreal Forests of the north (Minnesota to Maine) with stops along any of the Great Lakes, or the Maine Coast of the Atlantic Ocean, I would be able to identify most things seen from experience and memory. Put me in the desert Southwest, or the Pacific Northwest, or the Southeastern swamps, and while I'll know some of it, you'll more than likely hear me say "I don't know - let's look it up". I cringe when I'm walking a local trail behind a Cub Scout Den or Boy Scout Troop and a leader points out Virginia Creeper and calls it Poison Ivy, even if Poison Ivy plants are 2 feet away. At the same time, I know that the leader is just doing their best with whatever information they've been given, or think they know. Given that many adults have a problem with admitting they don't know anything to youths, and a related problem of learning with youth (I think that adults often take their units to familiar places so they won't seem to be starting off on the same level as their charges), I have a few suggestions on how to fix this. To start, at every training, and as often as possible, we need to repeat to each other that it's ok to say "I don't know what kind of (plant, bird, insect, animal, rock, etc.) that is - but let's both try to remember what it looks like so we can look it up when we get back". At Roundtables, set aside maybe 10 minutes of every meeting for a mini-presentation on identification of things - it can even be a "show and tell" kind of thing, with a different person doing it every month - and I'd include a once per year refresher on Poison Ivy, Poison Oak and Poison Sumac. Speaking of the "poison plants", when talking about them, bring up look-a-likes and act-a-likes. Even though Virginia Creeper doesn't look anything like Poison Ivy (it has 5 leaves), it is a vine as Poison Ivy can be. So we should show what other plants commonly mistaken for the Poison's can be. At camporees, set up adult leader only nature hikes, so that adult leaders can explore and learn in a non-threatening environment while the Scouts are out doing their activities. Same thing can be done at Summer Camp. And as has already been suggested, take advantage of the naturalist staff at parks that you do go to - just hang back and listen. Calico

If you've ever been forced to choke down Lutefisk, Haggis is considered a treat. Calico

A question that immediately comes to my mind is "How were the Cubs to know that the couple wasn't married?" Were the couple indiscreet about the fact that they weren't married? Or were their Pack leaders indiscreet in discussing the couple's marital status in front of the boys? I know when I was that age, I would have naturally thought they were married, and only would have thought otherwise if someone had told me otherwise. Calico

Yep - it's called the Cubmaster's Handbook, the Committee Guidebook, the Den Leader's Handbook, etc., etc., etc. But that's the snarky answer which I'm trying to beat someone else to the punch with. To your question, I'd talk with the committee before putting together an SOP for the Pack - and I'd probably be careful about calling it an SOP for that matter. The terminology brings to mind a manual of procedures that must be followed by all successive Pack Committees and Leaders, with no deviation allowed, or the folks who developed the SOP are going to come back to make sure they do it right. On the other hand, a useful (and editable) document could contain things such as where the Pack does its banking, how to get new signature cards for tha account, who the key contacts at the meeting place are (including the custodial staff, not just the Institutional Head and Chartered Org Rep), how to set up the Pinewood Derby track (not how to run the Pinewood Derby - though a section on what's worked and what hasn't worked for you, in a conversational tone - and not in a preachy "we tried it this way and it didn't work so don't bother" kind of tone might be nice), info on where the Scout Center is, how to fill out a tour permit and advancement record, how to turn on and off the lights in the meeting space, and where the chairs and brooms are stored, where the pinewood derby track is stored or what Pack you borrow/share the track with, etc., etc., etc. would probably be welcomed. My suggestion is to keep it to practical information that a brand new committee could pick up, read through, and get started - without them feeling as if some previous Pack Leaders are preaching to them how to run the Pack. You could even use it to start a historical record of events, happenings, outing, places the Pack has been, etc. that each successive committee adds to every year. Calico

"Sorry, honey - I know we're engaged and have been living together for the past 4 years, but I work for an organization that is grounded somewhere back in the 1950's, and I don't mean just my paycheck"

There is no "official" flag folding method in the Boy Scouts of America. The only time one MUST use the triangular fold is as a requirement to earn Tenderfoot - but the handbook does not, anywhere, say this is the "Official" Boy Scouts of America method of folding the flag. To say that a Tenderfoot requirement makes it "Official" throughout the organization is like saying that cooking over an open fire is the "Official" way to cook in the BSA because that's part of the requirements for Second Class, and none of the other requirements specify what method one needs to use for cooking. The fold taught in the BSA Handbook is the Traditional method, not the "Official" method. And it can be done by one person if needed. Do not mistake Traditional for Official - isn't that something a certain "great and powerful wizard of the BSA" keeps telling us? Calico

I agree with the sentiment that you don't want to toss it on the grill before you cook up your steak dinner. You definitely want to cook the steaks first, then toss the flag on the grill (grin). To be more serious, I've heard (and haven't been able to verify, but I wouldn't have a problem with it) of an ex-Marine organic farmer who will accept cotton flags (and only cotton flags - no nylon or polyester), and hold a dignified ceremony prior to shredding the flag into fine pieces, which he then composts (as the flag has already been destroyed, he's not composting the flag, but it composting pieces of cotton) and uses the compost to fortify his soil. I like the symbolism of "Life to Death to supporting new Life". I once heard the same story that the BSA is one of only four non-military organizations that were authorized by Congress to retire flags (and I knew is was BS then) - I heard it was the Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, the American Legion and the Veterans of Foriegn Wars. Calico

"In what kind of an accent does "a three 'el' lllama" come out as three-alarmer??" New England - particularlay Boston where folks "Pahk the Cah in Bah Hahbah" when they visit Maine or "Pahk the Cah at Hahvahd" when in Cambridge Say 3 l llama really fast, it comes out 3ahllama.

What part of Observe 20 LIVE species of habitat translates to look at a DEAD bug in a garage? I don't get it. You're not suggesting that out Trustworthy Scouts that Keep Themselves Morally Straight would cheat by going online and downloading 20 pictures of insects, are you? Though that could lead to some interesting meetings with the counselor - "Hey, that's a great picture of a Cowboy Beetle you got there - where did you see that?" - "In the park" - "Really, what was the name of the park in Australia that you saw that beetle". Let's face it - people just aren't interested in killing things just to collect them anymore - and with books out there like "Butterflies Through the Binoculars" and "Dragonflies Through the Binoculars", there is less and less reason for people to need to do so. Calico

At one time, Life was the highest rank one could earn, and Eagle was an award given out based on the number of merit badges on earned - and it was possible to be awared the Eagle before one became a Life Scout - that was in the very beginning. So given the historical beginnings of Eagle, I'm willing to risk ticking off some of the traditionalists by asking "What if the BSA changed the nature of required merit badges - would that motivate more lads to advance?" I wonder if the BSA would be served as well, or better, by limiting the number of "required" merit badges to 5, all to be earned at the more skills-based ranks, and let candidates for Star, Life and Eagle choose the merit badges from the 106 other merit badges being offered. They would still have to meet number requirements (6 more for Star (total of 10), 6 more for Life (total of 16), 4 more for Eaqle (total of 21). For required merit badges, how about Cooking for Tenderfoot, First Aid and Swimming/Hiking/Cycling for Second Class and Camping and Citizenship in the Nation for First Class. Would this live up to the spirit of Eagle and keep older scouts more active and engaged, and perhaps earning some of the "rarer" Merit Badges out there, keeping the spirit of Merit Badges (a collection of topics in different interest areas that let Scouts get their feet wet exploring them)? Calico

Apparently, the BSA was ahead of the curve on this one - new requirements for Insect Study were released on August 1st and effective January 1, 2009. No longer does one need to collect 50 insects. Instead, the requirement is: Do the following: Observe 20 different live species of insects in their habitat. In your observations, include at least four orders of insects. Make a scrapbook of the 20 insects you observe in 4a. Include photographs, sketches, illustrations, and articles. Label each insect with its common and scientific names, where possible. Share your scrapbook with your merit badge counselor. Calico

The G2SS has a list of prohibited activities and cautions - but read it carefully. A guideline on how liquid fuel is to be stored and handled can be translated by those who aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer as an outright ban on using Coleman stoves. Anytime someone tells you you can't do something (especially something like a skit or song) tell them to show you where an official BSA publication states that in writing. Most won't be able to do so. Other times, they may show you something that you'll read and realize they are completely off base with their interpretation. I've already heard a couple of Scouters in my neck of the woods claim that the BSA is banning activities during hazardous weather - that outings and activities must be immediately cancelled and the Scouts brought home - just because the BSA is offering Hazardous Weather Training. That's not the point of the training at all, but that isn't stopping these folks from making this claim wit a straight face. Just use good judgement and you'll be fine. And the next time you're at a training session that just is a litany of "can'ts and don'ts, stand up and ask them to stop telling you what you can't do and start giving you ideas on what you can do. Calico

Native Americans are US Citizens regardless of whether they are on a reservation or not. In general, most reservations are considered sovereign territories/nations within states. Tribes can accept state jurisdiction (more common in the East and with smaller tribes) or can reject state jurisdiction completely, or can accept limited jurisdiction. Federal law applies, as it does with every other state and territory. Tribes that reject state jurisdiction have their own laws, but can only create laws which punish misdemeanors. Felonies are Federal crimes (unless a Tribe has accepted State jurisdiction). For those tribes that completely reject state jurisdiction, tribal members on the reservation may not vote for state elected officials. They vote for their own elected officials, and can vote for federal elected officials - including Senators and Representatives (who then represent the tibes as well as the state). Tribes that accept full state jurisdiction may vote for state elected officials, and their tribal governments are, for the most part, treated essentially as local governments within the state. The tribes that do not accept state jurisdiction issue their own license plates, maintain their own roads, make their own hunting and fishing regulations, etc. etc. In parts of Minnesota, you'll see license plates for the Red Lake band of Chippewa. The Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma also issues their own license plates. Calico Calico

I believe that no country is greater than any other country.

What I remember about the "controversy" is the statements by Bill Donahue of the Catholic League condemning the movie. I make it a point to see any movie that Donahue condemns - they usually turn out to be great movies (Dogma was hysterically funny). The Golden Compass is available at my Library and on my list of movies to watch. Calico

Just to throw another monkey wrench into the debate on sovereignity, in a republican form of government, such as the US's, sovereignity is held by the people - individually. So in the US, the United States is a Sovereign Nation of 50 Sovereign Nation-States collectively composed of about 350 Million Sovereign Individuals. As far as pledges and oaths go, I don't say the Pledge of Allegiance. I believe the oath I once took, to defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic, is far more powerful than the Pledge (and no, I don't believe the United States is the "greatest country in the world" - the United States has flaws, like every other country has or had - past, present (and presumably future). I believe we have as much to learn from other countries as we have to teach. I positively abhor false patriotism - the type people wear on their sleeves (or lapels as the case may be). I don't swear oaths on the Bible in court, I affirm. I have internalized the Scout Oath and the OA Obligation, and strive to live by those words daily. The only pledge I'm willing to repeat these days is: I Pledge allegiance to the Earth, and to the life that she provides. One planet, interconnected, with beauty and peace for all. Calico

Let's start off with a very important correction. There are two "Lowdens" in the Oregon, Illinois area. Lowden-Miller State Forest and Lowden State Park (both named after Governor Lowden). It is Lowden State Park (home of the "Blackhawk" statue) that is closing. Though Lowden State Park is situated along the Rock River, there is no easy river access from the park - it sits high on a bluff overlooking the river - which is why it was chosen as the site for the statue which overlooks the river. It is also a few miles north of Lowden-Miller State Forest and BSA Camp Lowden which makes it rather inconvenient for the Boy Scouts. Camp Lowden uses the waterfront at Lowden-Miller State Forest, which is NOT closing, and which essentially surrounds Camp Lowden. It's interesting that the Camp Lowden patch (google the camp name and you can check out the site, which has a picture of the patch on it) has a representation of the "Blackhawk" statue on it, even though the statue is about 3 miles upriver - but then again, that statue is pretty representative of the whole area. The closings do indeed smack of a political chess move and message by the Governor to the State Legislature who passed the budget, then failed to properly fund the budget and refused any new funding initiatives to keep the budget in balance as required by the State of Illinois Constitution, which triggered the requirement that the Governor start cutting the budget to bring it in balance. It should be mentioned that cuts in the states Department of Children and Family Services was announced the same day, and that other departments are also being cut, but with less fanfare (why? Because no one cares about the other departments - but Children, State Parks and State Historic Sites have big, vocal constituencies - all the better to generate calls to local legislators). A careful reading of the list of state parks and historic sites to close show that these are all popular parks and sites - IN SEASON - and not so popular in winter, or they have major events at some time during the year that pumps money into the local economy, or they close in the winter anyway. Castle Rock State Park, Oregon - Closes annually in the winter anyway - trails to dangerous to walk on in winter so the parking lot and viewing towers aren't maintained anyway. Lowden State Park, Oregon - Mostly a camping park, not heavily used in winter; however it does have an adjunct facility of Northern Illinois University which will no longer be accessible in the winter. Hennepin Canal Parkway State Park, Sheffield - Parks not maintained in the winter - these are just a series of camping spots stretching along the Hennepin Canal. Illini State Park, Marseilles - Popular for camping, picnicing and fishing in the summer months, not heavily visited between November and April. Channahon Parkway State Park, Channahon - Popular for camping in season, rarely visited off season. Gebhard Woods State Park, Morris - not a camping park (except bicyclists traversing the I&M Canal trail), looks more like a County Forest Preserve. Does hold a major Dulcimer Festival in June which pumps hundreds of thousands of dollars into the local economy. Hidden Springs State Forest, Strasburg - Popular for camping in season, rarely visited off season. Kickapoo State Park, Oakwood - Popular for camping in season, rarely visited off season. Moraine View State Park, Leroy - Popular for camping in season, rarely visited off season. Weldon Springs State Park, Clinton - Popular for camping in season, rarely visited off season. Wolf Creek State Park, Windsor - Popular for camping in season, rarely visited off season. Most of the 14 State Historic Sites on the list are very popular in the summer and can go for days without visitors from October to May. A notable exception is the Dana-Thomas House, a Frank Lloyd Wright house in Springfield, the state capital, and considered the crown jewel of the system. All of them do contribute quite a bit to the local economies at certain times of the year. Fort du Chartres holds an annual rendezvous which is considered one of the best in the nation. Apple River Fort holds a few events throughout the summer that are popular. It's even more interesting to note the parks and historic sites not on the closing lists. The Hogan Grain elevator in Seneca is not on the list, and essentially closes down in the winter anyway, as do the Postville, Metamora and Mount Pulaski courthouses - none of them are on the list. Grant's Home and the Old Market House are not on the list - and they are popular year round. State parks with year round lodges aren't on the list. This points to the political nature of these cuts. My opinion is that Blagojevic is playing this brilliantly - choosing just the right parks and historic sites to get people's attention at the end of the season and giving the Legislature some time over the winter to come up with the funds needed to re-open these closed parks and historic sites in the spring. It's a far better option than the one taken by governors of other states - closing the state parks altogether. Calico

"Edited part: Did I mention that the moderators are Talosian?" Shouldn't that be Organians? Talosians were the beings who put people in cages and gave them illusions of youth and beauty. Organians were the beings that forced peace and the neutral zone between the Federation and the Klingons (and presumably the Romulans). Or did I just prove how much of a Star Trek geek I really am. Calico

Invitations to the next Pack meeting, and don't forget to attach it to a membership application.

Something to chew on: Jesus was a community organizer. Pontius Pilate was a governor.

Of all the "headlines" and "leadoffs" that were mentioned, only one delivered fact without opinion - NPR. Every other headline inserted some type of opinion in it - from the very simple, yet camouflaged, "Major" speech (it was a speech - it's an opinion that it was a major speech) to the outright opining and bloviating "speech is a home run" There truly is no comparison of NPR to the corporate news media. NPR gives facts and when they do give opinions, they tell you they are giving you an opinion. The corporate news media gives opinion while pretending to give facts - and the people of the US buy it because most don't know any better, and as a herd, people are stupid. Calico

The framers of the Constitution did not write into the Constitution a mechanism for secession - at least from the United States. There is a mechanism for secession from a State (or states) but only as it relates to forming new States, such as West Virginia - which was formed from within the borders of Virginia, as a free state, during the Civil War. Other states formed by seceeding from States are Kentucky (once part of Virginia) and Maine (once part of Massachusets). In two of those instances, both the State and the US Congress agreed to the secession. In the other, Congress accepted the State as it was an offshoot of a state in rebellion against the US. In no instance, does that mechanism allow an area of a state or states to secede and form a new country - only a new state. The framers did, however, forsee attempts by malcontents and traitors to take over state governments and attempt to secede from the United States itself, and they wrote the Constitution in a way that obligates the United States to defend the States and the People from insurrection and rebellion, and even more importantly, clearly wrote that States cannot enter into any treaties, alliances or confederations on their own. In other words, the Confederate States if America was an unconstitutional alliance and confederation of States in insurrection and rebellion. Under the US Constitution, States can be formed and admitted into the Union but cannot be dissolved and released from the Union. Is this counter to the Declaration of Independence? Sure - but this is the way the Framers wrote, deliberately, the Constitution - and the Framers were well aware of what the Declaration of Independence said. Call them hypocrites if you'd like, but the reality is that is is the Constitution, and not the Declaration of Independence that governs the United States. When the Declaration of Independence was written, the revolutionaries took a big risk against a government that said "you are our colonies and will always be our colonies" and won. The Confederate States of American took the same risk against a government that said "you are States of the United States of America and you will always be part of the Union" - and they lost. Had England won the Revolutionary War, the Declaration of Independence would be viewed today as the most infamous piece of treasonous writing in the world but because England lost, it's viewed as a beacon of hope and courage instead. Let's not forget that most of the Confederate States "seceded" from the Union while James Buchanan was President, not while Lincoln was President. Let's also not forget that the first shots in the US Civil War were fired by the Confederates at Fort Sumter - a United States military fort in South Carolina, in response to the imminent arrival of needed supplies to a US fort by the US government on US land in a US state (had Lincoln not sent the supplies, he would have been acknowledging that South Carolina had a right to secede which it did not - Lincoln's actions were not military in nature - he was not ordering anyone to fire on the Confederates or to take territory by force, he was only sending supplies, mostly foods and medicines, to a US Military outpost). The South, emboldened by foreign powers, attempted to force their will against a more powerful opponent. The foreign powers failed to back the South up. Sounds rather like a recent conflict between Russia and Georgia - Georgia, emboldened by a foreign power, attempted to force their will only to be turned back by a more powerful opponent when the foreign power failed to back Georgia up as expected. Despite the loss of life, and the question on the constitutionality of the suspension of habeas corpus by the President rather than the Congress, it still holds that Lincoln preserved the United States of America and the Constitution. To have capitulated to the Confederates would have been the same as ignoring his oath to preserve and defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic. Calico

"She stopped the Bridge to Nowhere" How about the whole story there, champ. Sarah Palin supported the "Bridge to Nowhere" - she only cancelled it after she learned that the Alaska Congressional Delegation was unable to guarantee that the Federal Government (aka the Taxpayers of all 50 states) would fund the State of Alaska's portion of the bridge. Every road project funded by the Federal Government (with the exception of road projects on federal lands) are only partially funded by the feds - usually around 60-70%, with state and local governments picking up the tab for the remaining amount. Palin only cancelled it because the State of Alaska would still have to pick up their fair share of the costs. It's a flat out lie (I won't use the term "spin" - which is just another way of saying "lie") to say Palin cancelled the project because she's a fighter of "pork". In fact, though the bridge project was cancelled, she made sure that Alaska kept the money the feds allocated to the bridge project, for unallocated state projects. Pork fighter my Aunt Fanny. Let's not forget her firing the entire Agriculture Commission because they appointed the members of the Creamery Board who recommended the State of Alaska close a money losing state-owned dairy operation, a move she opposed to "save Alaska jobs" - and which only resulted in the dairy losing money for the state for another year before it was closed down and the buildings sold for about $1.5 million dollars less than they would have been sold for if she had listened to the Creamery Board in the first place. One of her campaign contributors got a pretty nice deal on that real estate transaction. As for another state legislator possible becoming President within a few years of holding state office, I submit perhaps the best President this country has ever had - the President who truly united a country of states into the United States - Abraham Lincoln. As to whether this is an inspired choice, we'll have to wait and see. The choice may solidify the right wing in McCain's corner, but may scare the heck out of the moderates in the GOP, as wel as independent voters. If it was some kind of ploy to appeal to Hillary voters, I think it will backfire - it may prevent women who would normally vote GOP from voting Dem, but those women who were truly Hillary supporters, and not voting for Hillary just because she is a woman, will likely look at Palin and decide that she is not the person they would want as the first female VP or President of the United States. Calico

Rules and guidelines are tools - nothing more. Their impact on ethics is at a very basic level. If your ethics are based solely on rules and guidelines, then your automatic "choice" tends to be following the rules - which isn't really a choice as much as it is a conditioned response. You can claim you've made a choice, but in reality, the choice was made by someone else, and you are simply following that entity's choices, not your own. To truly make ethical choices, one needs to bring in more advanced tools to help with the decision - tools such as (but not limited to) humanity, compassion, empathy and sympathy (or the antithesis of one or more of these tools). An ethical choice may very well be that the best course of action is to follow the rules - but an ethical choice may also be that the best course of action is to bend or break the rules. There are times when it may be more ethical to break a rule than to follow a rule. Which is more ethical - letting a group of people suffer from dehydration in a natural disaster or breaking into a closed convenience store to get bottled water for victims of the disaster? It's the "Les Miserables" conundrum. As has been pointed out, morality is also a component (tool - and another advanced tool at that) of ethics, but morality is not universal (and of course, neither is ethics). Eric Rudolph, who bombed abortion clinics, the Atlanta Olympics, and gay bars, followed an internal morality that approved of these actions. I dare say most of us would disagree with the ethical choices he made - but we would base that disagreement on our own internal morality and application of ethics. Calico

Well that's a first - until I read this thread I had never heard of a Lodge that didn't issue Lodge flaps to Ordeal members. Lodge flaps indicate membership in a Lodge - what incentive is there to be a member of a Lodge if you don't have a Lodge flap to announce to your fellow Scouts and Arrowmen that you are a member of a Lodge. Not that there's anything wrong with this approach, it's just curious is all. My home lodge restricted Lodge flaps - you could receive two, and only two, in your lifetime - you received one as an Ordeal member and one as a Brotherhood member (I still have both of mine). The Lodge had strict policies about trading the Lodge flap - if you traded it, you were removed from the membership rolls of the Lodge for life - no appeal, no ifs, ands or buts. When members of the Lodge were away at multi-council "events" (such as Grants Pilgrimage in Galena, Illinois) they were warned not to wear their Lodge flaps for the weekend, especially if they were on snaps or velcro (which many were, if folks had multiple uniforms) - there were so-called "Scouters" who would try to snatch the Lodge flap right off a Scout's shirt, though they were rarely successul as nearby Scouters would be quick to grab the offending party if he managed to get the flap. One Scouter ended up in jail for the rest of the weekend after taking a lads flap, and ripping the pocket flap it was sewed to right off the shirt only to be found eating lunch in a restaurant later by the Scout (who of course, was quite upset) who pointed out the thief to one of his Assistant Scoutmasters, who also happened to be an FBI agent. I wish I could have been there to witness the scene, but the tale told that night at our campfire (our Troop shared a campsite that year with our neighboring Troop who happened to be the Troop with an FBI agent ASM) of an Assistant Scoutmaster (in full uniform) marching up to the so-called Scouter, showing him his ID, and announcing he was under arrest, in a very crowded restaurant, was vivid enough. The Scout got his flap back - and a new shirt (compliments of the Galena Chamber of Commerce). The Lodge resisted the call to unrestrict the flap for quite a long time, then in a show of compromise, issued a "Trading Flap" that was quite different from the "Real Flap" and was unrestricted. The trading restrictions are a thing of the past now, but the flap is slightly different now that the mandatory Fleur de Lis was added (the first time it was added, it was put in a rather unfortunate position - right behind, and under, a certain flying waterfowl's rear end - that became a very limited edition patch). One year, the Lodge issued a Winter Banquet lodge flap - only those who attended the Winter Banquest that year received one - one only - extra stocks were destroyed - publically, in a burn barrel in the parking lot that night. Now, the Lodge has joined many other Lodges and seems to issue a patch for just about any event - including the camp dog having puppies. Our neighboring Lodge issued a new Lodge flap every year, but the only way to get it was to do your Ordeal or Brotherhood in that year - you could tell when an Arrowman became an Ordeal member or Brotherhood member of the Lodge based on the Lodge flap he was wearing. That Lodge also had a generic, all purpose Lodge flap too - for tranfers in, and trading, or for extra uniforms. I received the generic flap the year I did my CIT at that Council camp (they did the bulk of their callouts and Ordeals during camp (two week sessions - used "luxury" buses to get people to camp) and since I was an Arrowman, they made me a temporary member of their Lodge so I could help out with the ceremonies - though I think it was really an excuse so that I had one of their Lodge flaps on my uniform and not one of my home Lodge's flaps (I was their first out of council CIT and they didn't want to bring any more attention to it than they needed to, especially since I ended up staying the whole summer and not just my two week hire period). Ok - sorry - long story - I just get to reminiscing sometimes - to the topic, I'd say, if the Lodge flap in question is for the OA member's Lodge, then yes, go ahead and wear it, even if it is historical in nature - though I'd check with the Lodge to see if they had any restrictions on when a member could wear the flap (I mentioned the winter banquet flap we issued - it could be worn until that years Spring Ordeal weekend - then it had to be removed and either the "real" flap or the "trading" flap had to be worn - it wouldn't be appropriate for an Arrowman to wear it as his Lodge flap now). Calico