CalicoPenn

I've done this trip, a very long time ago, not as a Scout but as the "final exam" for my canoeing class at college (I wish all my final exams were like this - and what better way to earn college credits?). I pulled out my old journal of the trip which had far less "technical details" (like "at mile Q there is a good campsite for X number of people" or "there is no good water source at campsite Y so filtering the river water is a must) that a guide or outfitter could provide and far more impressions more suited to a naturalist/educator (I'm sure my classmates who were pure Outdoor Rec majors had more of the technical stuff - while those who, like me, were Environmental Education majors with minors in Outdoor Rec talked more about the geology and animals). According to my journal, we started out at Seboomook Dam and ended at a site on Ripogenus Lake. The river was mostly flat and calm with a few ripples here and there - nothing too strenuous. Campsites are first come first served which for us meant early on the water and early off the water to make sure we could get a site that could accomodate the size of our group (about 15 people). I saw quite a few Moose on the trip, and loons on Lobster Lake (a short detour but worth it), Chesuncook and Ripogenus. Saw the Northern Lights one night. Keep an eye out for Moose mostly at the marshy areas along the river (should be marked on the map) but be ready anytime to see them. There is bear in the area (we didn't see any) so you should take proper bear precautions. When we got to Chesuncook, we paddled across to Gero Island and made camp on the island. Since we were canoeing to Ripogenus down the lake, we made our way around the southern end of the island and crossed over to the northeast side of the lake where we started heading southeastward. We had to cross again at Ripogenus but the crossing from that side is much narrower than from the other side. Chesuncook is a pretty good sized lake - which means open water waves can be quite high at times - we kept fairly close to the shore just in case - we did retreat to shore once when the waves were too high - a few hours later we were able to set off again to get to a campsite. Camping was allowed only at designated sites, and probably still is. I don't think we had a night where a barred owl wasn't calling fairly close to camp at night - not even on Gero Island. The trip took us 6 days and at the end, we celebrated by taking a guided whitewater rafting trip through Ripogenus Gorge - highly recommended if the conditions are good and the folks are old enough to handle it. Could Scouts do this trip? Absolutely - Seboomook Base (MNHA) had guided trips along the West Branch all the time. Can you do it without a guide? Yes - it can be done, if you're well prepared. Sometimes, though, it's good to have a guide who knows the best campsites, and spots to rest and have lunch, and knows the area - it could be worth the price of a guide just to keep from missing things on the river that you will likely miss without a guide. And who knows, maybe you'll end up with a guide that comes from my alma mater. Calico

Interesting question - and I'm with the "it depends" crowd. In most cases, I don't think physically striking someone for a comment is acceptable (though if it is a parent discipling their own child, and its not a beating, but more of a quick tap against the back of the head or backside just to get their attention, I'm not inclined to make a big deal of it (except in a Scouting context where the discipline should be an SM/ASM/SPL matter where no striking is allowed, not even if dad or mom is the /SM/ASM)). On the other hand, if the comment is followed by actions that can be perceived as a threat, then I'd say striking is not only allowable, but may even be neccessary. If someone is advancing on someone else yelling "You -bleeping- (6 letter "N" or "F" word), then a physical strike by the intended victim is perfectly acceptable in my book - and if I'm around, the victim may not have to do it because I may very well step in and do it myself. Calico

A while ago, I was asked by a Troop to review their bylaws - documents that had been in existence for a while and that the committee just inherited and followed without giving them too much thought. None of the people who put the bylaws together were still involved with the Troop. (note - I'm not a lawyer, but I do have a lot of experience with non-profit organizations and bylaws and this is why I was asked to look at them). This document, like so many I've seen on Troop websites, aren't pure bylaws, but was a mix of rules and regs and Scouting info. I was given free reign to take a mighty red pen through the document. The 20 page document edited down to less than a page by the time I was finished with it. The first thing I did was remove every reference which was just a repetition of BSA documents. That took out about 15 pages. The rest was either things that just didn't apply, weren't allowable anyway (there was a clause in these bylaws that distributed the money and equipment to someone other than the CO if the unit dissolved) or added to BSA requirements. What was left were things like "Two signatures are required for every check written", etc. - more committee operational things that are generally common sense but aren't bad to have written down. The folks that asked me to look at their bylaws were stunned - at first. When I explained all of my reasons, they got it - and got rid of all their bylaws and just put together a very short document that just had minor operational rules (like the check signature rule) and other information useful to know (where the light switches and janitorial closet for the meeting room is, who has keys to the troop trailer, when the license plate for the troop trailer is due for renewal, where documents are located, etc.). Using an example of a Troop Handbook as provided, here is how I would edit it: TABLE OF CONTENTS Current Roster Patrols - OUT (Redundant - part of Roster) Youth Leaders - OUT (Redundant - part of Roster) Adult Leadership - OUT (Redundant - part of Roster) Tentative Schedule - OUT (Should change every year based on PLC planning - tentative suggests adult planning/wish listing - once PLC makes schedule, hand out a calendar) Troop Meetings Methods of Scouting - OUT (In BSA Literature) Youth Protection and Adult Leadership - OUT (G2SS) Rules and Policies - OUT (In BSA Literature) Fundraising - OUT (In BSA Literature) Treasurers Policy Prohibited Activities - OUT - (G2SS) Rank Advancement - OUT (Scout Handbook) Merit Badges and Merit Badge Counselors - OUT (Should be updated as new MBC's are recruited - both on Troop and District level - SM needs listing, not parents) Merit Badge List - OUT (in Scout Handbook) Troop Sponsored Camping Trips - OUT (Should change annually based on PLC planning - and added to calendar) Personal Camping Equipment - OUT (in Boy Scout Handbook) Summer Camp - OUT (Special event - should be part of active promotion) Map to Summer Camp - OUT (Only people who are attending need this) Scout Camp Site Map - OUT (Only Scouts need this - if at all) Classification of Swimming Ability - OUT (In BSA Literature) APPENDICES Merit Badge Counselor Application - Out (Unit should be active in recruiting MBC's, not passive by including them in handbook) Personal Health and Medical Record (Class 1 and 2)- Out (Unit should be active in getting these, not passive by including them in handbook) Eagle Rank Requirements - Out (In Scout Handbook) Eagle Rank Application Form - Out (Only Eagle Candidates need this -give out when needed) Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook - Out (Only Eagle Candidates need this -give out when needed) Eagle Scout Reference Letter - Out (Only Eagle Candidates need this -give out when needed) Troop Scout Position/Descriptions - Out (in Scout Handbook) National Scout Jamboree - Out (Special event) High Adventure Camping - Out (Special event or Troop activity as planned by PLC) So my recommended "Troop Handbook" would end up: Current Roster Troop Meetings (This means meeting place and time, right?) Treasurers Policy Hmmm - now I wonder if we need any of that at all. See what I mean? Calico

Vocal dissent by the older Scouts? Were they involved in drafting the original code or perhaps don't feel there is any need to have changed the "code of conduct" at all? Families thinking the Troop is starting to drift from being boy-led? It sounds to me as if there has been a change in the make-up of the committee and program leadership with either little continuity from an "old guard" or perhaps an influx of new blood that don't quite understand the BSA program (perhaps after coming from the leadership ranks of a Pack). You mention a schism that seems to be shaping up - and from where I sit, it sounds like a schism between new and old - is this correct or am I just reading too much into it. When the older Scouts start to vocalize dissent, its really time for the leaders to step back and rethink - Scouts are generally pretty resilient when it comes to change - but when they start pushing back on the changes, then the change is probably not good, and not needed. I'd say the unit is teetering at the brink but can still be brought back - the fact that the unit had a "special" scout/parent meeting to roll this out and no one actually got up and told the leaders where to pound their code of conduct tells me that there is some loyalty to the Troop that can be built upon. My suggestion - scrap the whole code of conduct thing - and go back to basics - the Code of Conduct for the Troop is the Scout Law. No other "code of conduct" is needed. When people have a question about specifics - ie. doing homework at a meeting, the simple solution is to ask if doing so violates any part of the Scout Law (in this case, I'd say Courteous) and if it does violate part of the Scout Law, what would the solution be? Then reboot back to being a Patrol led unit - that means training or retraining of adult leaders if neccessary. Finally, let all this lead to a Scoutmaster's Minute (or 5) at the next Scout/Parent meeting (say a Court of Honor) with a brief summary of the issues that led to the Committee wanting a refreshed "code of conduct", how confused and disappointed these issues made them and an admission that the Adults tried to "do their best" (just like the Scout Oath tells us to do)to make corrections but that even Adults "fail" when trying to do their best yet the true mark of leadership and maturity is recognizing when one has gone down the wrong set of tracks and then hurrying to get back on the right track. I don't think anyone needs to apologize - just be humble. To end the "Scoutmaster's Minute", I'd ask every Scout to stand and recite the "Scout's Code of Conduct" along with the Scoutmaster (and any other uniformed (program) leaders: "A Scout is Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean and Reverent".

I wouldn't mind a little more information on this, particularly the level/ages of the lads that are consistently late. My impression, based on the mentions of the SPL, ASPL and Troop Guide is that it is the older lads that are more often late. Are those that are late mostly of high school age, where there is more demand on folks time and a 6:45 pm meeting may not be realistic though a 7:30 meeting may be? When I was a Scout, my Troop's meeting started at 7:30 and ended at 9:00. At first, I thought we could have started earlier - 7:00 or 6:30 even - and then when I started high school, I learned what that 7:30 start time was really all about - keeping the older lads, who were the mentors to the younger lads, active. Had my Troop met any earlier than 7:30, I would have been late 90 percent (or more) of the time. Between sport practice (Swim Team) and theater (technical) activities, I usually didn't get home from school until 6:45 - and I needed some time to grab a quick shower and something to eat before heading to the Troop meeting. I realized that was true of all those older Scouts that were my mentors when I was younger too. I love the PLC concept, but this may be one of the few times when I would suggest that the PLC not make the decision - not without significant feedback from the rest of the Troop members, including committee members and parents. This should be, using a consensus process as much as possible, a decision for the whole Troop - and one made one time, with the expectation that every new Scout and Scout Family will know the meeting times. I would add, however, one caveat - though not truly democratic, I believe I would give a bit more weight to the needs of the active older Scouts, and program leaders (SM & ASM's) than the rest of the folks - this could be one of those cases where if the majority thinks staying with 6:45 is fine, but the majority of older Scouts and program leaders can only truly commit to 7:30, then 7:30 is the best, most ideal time for the Troop - and that's what your looking for here, the best, most ideal time for the Troop meeting, not the majority rules time. Losing the senior scouts and program leaders for even just half an hour can play havoc on a quality program - as you have already experienced. Final thought - just cause it's the first thing that actually came to mind when I read the thread title. Nowhere in the Scout Law does it say "A Scout is Punctual" (very wide grin) Calico

Plastic bags on the legs in the South? Obviously protection against chiggers and fire ants. Aluminum pot and foil on the head in the South? Obviously protection against "brainwarshing". Calico

"Flag Code" "Military Code" "State Laws" "Local Ordinances". none of these matter at all. The BSA has specific uniforming guidelines as spelled out in their Insignia Guide that should answer this question. The correct flag to wear on the BSA uniform is the official flag patch as sold by the Scout Supply Division. Flags with gold borders, flags with reversed fields, flags in camoflaged colors - none of these are acceptable according to the BSA Insignia Guide. If the flags were "already coming off the uniform" then the answer is to sew it back on, not to slap another flag patch over it. Calico

Three sides of an incomplete rectangle? Better for ya??

I know it might sound whacky but I've used Coca-Cola with success on getting rid of sticky gunk from my tent, then followed that up with a quick spot cleaning with a diluted mild detergent. I should mention that I specified a brand name for a reason - I've had better luck with Coca-Cola then with any of the other colas (Pepsi, RC, etc) on the market - and I think it's because Coca-Cola has a higher carbonation than the other colas. But don't quote me on that. Calico

Hmmm - interesting - and sounds like fun. I don't have any dimensions but it sounds like you might be able to come up with them - sketch out what you remember from camp - then put numbers to it. You already give us one dimension (at least based on what you think it might be - two 15 foot tall poles with a log on top (I guess its a three sided rectangle (4 if you count the ground as a side). Make a guess at the distance between the poles - maybe 6 to 10 feet? Then the rest will be based on the length of the rope you'll use - and the weight as well (15 feet is pretty tall - you might have problems with too heavy or too light a rope). Another possibility is to contact the camp director - maybe he can help you come up with something. Calico PS - welcome to the forums!

Back in the 70's when I was a Scout, it was Physically Strong. To the best of my knowledge, it had always been Physically Strong (I no longer have any of my father's Scout Handbook collection - I donated them to my old Troop - but I read them all and never noticed a change in the Scout Oath). Physically Fit and Physically Strong are similar, but are also different. I know people who aren't "physically fit" (ie weight appropriate for age and height) yet can toss hay bales around all day without losing steam, and people who are physically fit who need to take a break every 30 minutes doing the same kind of work. Being Physically Strong included being physically fit, but also included things as eating right for strong bones and healthy bodies, taking care of one's health (being able to do 100 pushups in 2 minutes doesn't mean anything if you ignore a cold and let it develop into pneumonia), and not using substances harmful to your health and body (cigarettes, alcohol). Now before we attribute it to old age, it could be possible that the folks in your unit always said "Physically Fit" and no one ever bothered to correct anyone. These things happen. Or of course, it could just be memory loss. Or old age. :-) Calico

CalicoPenn is short for Calico Pennant Dragonfly - my favorite dragonfly of all times. It's an old internet portal sign in when sign ins were limited to 10 characters - I've kept it ever since.

I'm not so sure I would be quick to dismiss programs such as 4-H, Campfire, and Girl Scouts from the "best whole person youth program available" rubric. I think what makes the BSA special is just as noticeable in these other three organizations, but most of us interact with just one of the 4 groups, so aren't necessarily mindful of what the other three do. Notice the other three I chose - they share some things in common with the BSA - they are all national groups, and are fairly well known. they also tend to be similar from state to state. Other groups, such as Awana, are much more franchised and one churches Awana club will be very different from another's. So what makes the "Big 4" special? Their consistency in program (generally) from state to state. When I meet someone who was a Boy Scout in Nebraska, I'm reasonably assured that we have certain shared experiences though we've never met. I think you'll find that same answer from someone who's been involved in one of the other "Big 4". Calico

You make a very good point about adult leaders sitting around their camps during camporees while the lads are off at their events. I think the commissioner staff can come in handy here - why not create a commissioner camp where the adult leaders can drop by to refresh/catch up on outdoor skills? You could even put together a schedule (ie: 10-10:30 am: Caring for Dutch Ovens. 10:30-11:00 am - Tricky Knots and Lashings. 11:00-11:30: Simple No Muss Lunches). Not all training has to be done during specific training sessions - we should be taking the opportunity to offer informal "cracker barrel" training as often as possible, and Camporees seem to me an ideal event for things like this. Calico

Despite wanting to post this a number of times, I've never done so because I felt it was insulting to too many people. Since it's now apparent that arguments like this aren't insulting anymore, as they're observational, I'm going to post it: "I have never met an intelligent Christian" While we're at it, I've never met a reasonable and non-prejudiced Southerner. I've never met a good looking heterosexual male. I've never met a person who drives a Honda Goldwing that wasn't a dweeb. I've never met a sports fan that is mentally or emotionally stable. I've never met an NRA member who wasn't compensating for size. Taking tongue firmly out of cheek now, is it any wonder why most people find statements like the above to be nothing better than insults that deserve no recognition of needing to be taken seriously for discussion purposes? Calico

The article doesn't say the BSA is dropping their appeals. It is dropping the sale. Not surprising given the state of the economy and the strong chance that the purchaser's financing has probably dried up. They may also have tested the political waters in Michigan and discovered they were unlikely to win their appeal - but that's just speculation. Regardless, Owasippe is off the block for the time being.

From today's Chicago Tribune. Boy Scouts decide to hang on to Michigan campground By Gerry Smith | Tribune reporter November 9, 2008 The Chicago Area Council of the Boy Scouts of America said Friday it has decided not to sell part of its Owasippe Scout Reservation, a sprawling campground in Michigan where area Scouts have attended summer camp since 1911. In a statement, the Boy Scouts said backing away from the sale to an investor group based in Holland, Mich., gives them "the flexibility to determine the future direction" of the reservation about 200 miles from Chicago. The Boy Scouts, who own the camp, had signed a contract to sell it for $19 million, hoping to make up for deficits and declining attendance. But in 2006, the governing board in Blue Lake Township, where the camp is located, refused a request for rezoning that would have permitted construction of as many as 1,278 residential units on the property. The Boy Scouts sued the township, claiming it had improperly created an institutional zoning category for the camp, limiting the Scouts' use of the land. A judge in Muskegon County (Mich.) ruled against the Scouts in March. On Friday, the Boy Scouts said they intended to "redevelop a more positive relationship" with Blue Lake Township officials and neighbors and would consider working with conservancy groups to ensure the property remains undeveloped. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-boy-scouts-camp-bulldog-08nov09,0,4357866.story

In my haste to write, I said Article 9 rather than Article 1, Section 9 which is what I wa referring to. I'm hopeful most people understood what I was referring to.

It's a very common misperception that the Constitution enumerates limits on what the federal government can do. While it does list some restrictions (no bill of attainder, no removal of habeus corpus), it doesn't restrict the federal government to a list of items it is allowed to do. Most people who state this point to the list of items in Article 1, Section 8 as the only things the government can do. But that isn't what this article does. Rather, this article restricts the list to the federal government alone (or to show the difference - it means "Only the federal government can do these things" NOT "The federal government can only do these things"). Only the federal government can borrow money on the credit of the United States - not the states. Only the federal government can issue patents and copyrights - not the states. Only the federal government can raise a navy or army - not the states. Article 9 lists what the federal government can't do - and it's not a very big list. What the Bill of Rights and the rest of the Amendments to the Constitution provides either further limits on the federal government (no quartering soldiers, no congressional pay raises effective until after the next election) or further protect rights of the people by enumerating them specifically (even though the people still have unenumerated rights). Still, at 27 amendments, it's also a very small list. The Constitution is worded in such a way as to provide that the federal government can do things not specifically listed as a power of the federal government, provided they are not specifically restricted.

Back in 1992, the voters of Colorado approved an amendment to their state constitution that banned laws prohibiting anti-gay discrimination. In Romer v. Evans, the United States Supreme Court overturned the amendment, stating that the people of the State of Colorado could NOT pass an amendment that took away any group of citizens rights away. It shouldn't be a surprise that Prop 8 is going to be challenged.

It may be considered "parsing", kind of in the manner of "depends on what the definition of is is", but "new" does not necessarily have anything to do with "more". I think the statistics you are looking may not be the correct stats to look at for the term "new". Though I haven't taken the time to try to look up the stats so am not stating this as based on any kind of fact, it could be possible that the number of 18-21 year olds that voted in 2008 is much higher than the number of 18-21 year olds that voted in 2004, and if that's the case, the statements about the high number of new voters could be considered true.

There is a great way to make up that $500 lost "profit". You call the professional in charge of the Popcorn Sales and tell him/her that if Council gives in to this crazy woman's demands for the money, that the Pack will not let the Council/District do a Friend of Scouting presentation this year because the Pack will be doing their own Friends of Pack XXX this year to make up for the lost revenue. Then you tell him/her that the Pack will no longer participate in Popcorn Sales at all, and will just continue to hold Friends of Pack XXX presentations to the parents of the Pack to raise funds. As for the crazy woman, wait until after the Popcorn Sales are over, then tell her to take a hike. No need to drag a commissioner in. If she's officially registered, just send Council a check for her registration fees and tell them she is no longer a part of the Pack. If you want to be "official" about it, call the COR, tell him/her you've dumped this woman from the registration roll of the Pack - don't ask if it's ok - just tell them its a done deal. If the COR squawks, tell the COR he can start looking for a new Pack Committee and Leadership.

So what was Council's reaction? Did they acquiese to the mother demand or are they just quietly not doing anything at all?

You're not talking about doing a weekend trip somewhere together, you're talking about doing a summer high adventure trip somewhere together. I don't think the first question should be "what are the rules". I think the first question should be to the Crew members: "Do you want to have a shared High Adventure Trip next summer with the 12 and 13 year olds from the Boy Scout Troop (knowing that there may be some limitations on what we can do because of their physical strength, size and maturity)?" If the answer is yes, the second question should be to the Troop's PLC: "Do you want to have a shared High Adventure Trip with the Co-ed Crew (knowing that the older boys will make your life miserable if you aren't on your best behavior in front of the girls)?" Only if the answer to both questions is "yes" should you start to worry about the rules. And I did recommend asking the Crew first. Why? Because their older, and life is unfair sometimes. Also, because if they say no after the PLC says yes, then you won't be disappointing the boys who said yes and turning them off from Venturing, simply because they don't understand why the Crew might say no. Better to ask the Crew and if they say no, not mention it to the Troop. If the Crew says yes, and the PLC says no, the Crew members are much more likely to let it roll off their backs as being no big deal. And if it's a reluctant "yes" on the part of the Crew, I'd take it as a "no" and they just don't want to upset the adults. Just my take. Calico

In the "real world" - when someone hits a snag, the reaction of bosses isn't generally "you figure it out, is part of problem solving and you need to learn how to solve problems", unless they're a really bad boss. The reaction is "lets see if someone else can help with a solution; or maybe we need to bring in the legal eagles for help; or maybe someone has an idea for a different supplier". Despite some of the advice being given, Eagle Scout candidates shouldn't be expected to come up with all of the answers themselves. The mark of a true leader, and of a great leader, is the ability to say "I'm stuck and I NEED HELP". It appears to me that your son is at the "I'm stuck and I need help" stage and had reached out to people in his life for ideas, who, in turn, have reached out to here. Some questions before you bring in a legal eagle for help - is there a signed contract or is there a proposal with estimated pricing. If there is a signed contract for a design with a set price, use the resource of the ASM to help get the contract enforced (though it should be your son working with this resource, rather than you - your role was to help find that resource, which you've done). The ASM is likely to do it pro-bono. Many times, just a call or letter from an attorney is enough to get people to take action - let the attorney make any threats to report the vendor to the better business bureau, or to suggest that many people will know that the vendor is not an honorable business person. Then count the ASM's time as part of the project time put in by volunteers. If there is no signed contract, then the ASM might be able to convince the vendor to agree to do the work per the proposal (especially if your son can show by an e-mail trail that the vendor agreed to the terms "verbally" as it were), or s/he might suggest that there is no point in pursuing this person, in which case you need other resources. One suggestion was to change the size of the fire pit itself so that you can use a screen size that is more readily available without being custom built. If the sponsoring organization agrees to this, then it's worth pursuing. BUt if they specifically need a 48" (inside diameter??" fire pit for some reason, then more creativity is needed. Check with the Fire Chief - maybe he knows some sources of a custom metal worker, beyond the vendor you already found. I'm not sure where you live, but an internet search may lead you to other ornamental steel/iron workers in your area - maybe in the next county over. Check with local home or commercial builders - they may have contacts that don't advertise in the Yellow Pages, but do advertise in trade publications that might be able to do something/ Any blacksmiths in your area? Doesn't need to be someone who does it full time, could be someone who does it as a re-enactor, or is a hobbyist. They may be able to put something together that would work, and some may do it for the cost of materials and a little bit for labor just for the challenge to see if they can do it (and add to their repertoire of products).