InquisitiveScouter

6 hours ago, OaklandAndy said:

I believe my council runs the same way, however, with me never experiencing Scouting until I was an adult volunteer, I thought this was the way things were supposed to be. The way you describe it sounds much more exciting and fulfilling. 

It is...Scouts want fun activities, not academics.  Parents want academics and merit badges earned.

Fun is our hook, built around patrol-based activities where we slip in all the character, citizenship, fitness, and leadership opportunities.

I challenge you to sit in on the First Aid class at your camp, and see what I mean.  Rarely is this one counseled to the requirements.  To elaborate, each Scout must complete the requirements as stated.  So, can you imagine how long it would take to teach and evaluate just requirements 1, 11, and 12??

1. Demonstrate to your counselor that you have current knowledge of all first-aid requirements for Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class ranks.

11. Demonstrate the proper procedures for handling and immobilizing suspected closed or open fractures or dislocations of the
 

1. Forearm

2. Wrist

3. Hand and Fingers

4. Upper leg

5. Lower leg

6. Ankle

12. Describe the signs and symptoms, proper first-aid procedures, and possible prevention measures for the following conditions:
 

1. Anaphylaxis/allergic reactions

2. Asthma attack

3. Bruises

4. Sprains or strains

5. Hypothermia

6. Frostbite

7. Burns—first, second, and third degree

8. Concussion

9. Convulsions/seizures

10. Someone who is unconscious

11. Dehydration

12. Muscle cramps

13. Heat exhaustion

14. Heat stroke

15. Abdominal pain

16. Broken, chipped, or loosened tooth

(Sorry, formatting is all messed up on those, and I dunno how to fix it.)  @InquisitiveScouter   Fixed or better?, I recommend you first cut and paste into a word editor, edit accordingly, and then cut and paste into post. ~RS

And I routinely see classes of 15 to 25 Scouts in First Aid at camps...  Basically, the instructor demonstrates the bandages in #11, or lectures on the items in #12, and then signs everyone off.  And that is wrong on so many levels...  Primarily, to earn any merit badge, each Scout must individually complete the requirements to earn the badge, unless it specifically says you may do it with help/assistance/or another Scout.

Here are a couple of examples for those:

Canoeing:   8. With a companion, use a properly equipped canoe to demonstrate the following:

Pioneering:  9. Working in a group, (or individually with the help of your counselor) build a full size pioneering structure, using one of the following designs in the merit badge pamphlet:

Just now, OaklandAndy said:

And more revenue is the reason why most camps don't use this model anymore?

Yes, many councils have created the merit badge mills, which parents love because their Scout gets lots of badges fast, and they can get their Eagle quicker, and move on to the next college-resume-padding activity...

Merit badge mills get a lot more attendance.  Our council is a perfect example: small camp offering 75 merit badges.  60% of our council revenue generated by the camp...  A fairly industrial operation, camp is stuffed to the gills with people.  And there are other camps very much like this...

They went from giving the customer what they need to giving the customer what they want.  Now, that is how our society is based.  (Which is why we have an epidemic of obesity in this country.)  

Rather than BSA (and councils) saying "This is how the program works, enjoy!",  they say, "What do you want?  Maximum merit badges?  No meal prep? Tents set up in advance? Individualized instruction? Troop sites versus patrol sites? None of that pesky patrol stuff?  No worries, we have got the perfect place for you!  That will be $500 per head, please."

1 hour ago, OaklandAndy said:

So you're telling me that Summer Camps used to be a place that troops would basically go camp out and work on merit badges for a week, all being patrol-led with MBC assistance?

There are some camps left where this is still the model.

1 hour ago, MattR said:

I also really liked that they had a build day. Every scout can at least have a reasonable car and it's no more than a few hours. That brings back the fun.

Yeah, I wish people weren't so messed up in the head, and would stop building cars for their kids.  When you go to some district/council events, it is OBVIOUS that many were not the product of a Cub Scout.

My son's car never won those events.  He built one two years in a row, and competed.  Where we lived at the time, it was blatant that parents were building and tweaking cars.  Honed axles, graphite, teflon, or other lubes, etc, etc,

I wouldn't do it for him.  He got a little upset with me, but think he learned a valuable lesson...life isn't fair, and many people cheat and cut corners.

He never built another one.  Adults ruin so much of the fun.  (I suppose I ruined it for him, too...)

When we moved here (his last year of Webelos), this Pack did a modified build day... you could build and trick up the body at home, but everyone had to put on Pack-provided axles and wheels at the event.  No mods, and one adult would lube all the axles.  If you won and advanced, you get get another squirt of teflon before the next race.   It restored a lot of integrity to the race, and the kids had a whole heap of fun.

And there were lots of categories for competition, other than fastest.

Best Scout-theme Car, Best Patriotic Car, Best Alien Car, Best Military Car, Best Star Wars Car, Best Pokemon Car, Best Transformers Car, etc.  The Cubs picked the themes when we handed out the blocks (weeks before), and we announced them to the rest of the Pack.

Cubs could purchase extra blocks and build more than one car, if desired.

I love that this guy spent so much time, effort, and money to make a great event for them.  We should ask him to make us a full up pioneering kit on a trailer 😜

22 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Is 2 MBs at camp ok? 

As long as the instructors and counselors mentor Scouts to meet the requirements as stated, then sure.

This should be a different topic, though...

Summer camp is supposed to be a week in the woods "under canvas", with all that entails...

“A week of camp life is worth six months of theoretical teaching in the meeting room.” BP

It should focus on "...making camp, putting up a shelter, cooking over a fire, exploring our surroundings without getting lost, learning about the natural world and how to use what it provides, constructing things with pieces of tree and rope, tracking, and finally gathering socially around a fire."

https://scoutmastercg.com/essential-scouting-skills/#:~:text=The skills Baden Powell (BP,provides%2C constructing things with pieces

Here are some tenets of an ideal summer camp:

- separate patrol sites

- patrols pitch their own tents

- patrols plan their own menus, do their own shopping, cook their own meals (if possible, over a wood fire!!), do their own dishes, store their own food

- the PLC chooses the activities they want to do, and the adult leaders help them develop a support plan to make it happen.

- a swimming hole

- a place to shoot (if Scouts want to have that activity)

- a campfire (or three) with songs, skits, cheers, and general silliness

- map and compass work, with some hikes to distant places

- exploring the natural world...water, rocks, soil, trees, plants, flowers, insects, fish, mammals, birds...  stalking them to learn about their habits and behavior (I am really good at stalking rocks and trees!)

- ropework and pioneering, building structures that are actually used around the camp, not just a gateway

etc, etc, etc... the focus should be on the activities themselves, under the patrol method, rather than individuals going to school-like classes taught (in general) by Scouts who have little to no experience or skill in those things, and only geared toward getting a piece of cloth

The focus of the summer camp program is not advancement.  Advancement should happen as a result of the program.

What you get in most council-run summer camps is just a poor shadow of the ideal, and our Scouts' development suffers for it

13 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

My preference, Boy Scout camps provide secure pantry and refrigerator space and loaner cookware for attending units . Units/patrols bring their own food according to their needs. The only food ordered by a camp would be for their provisional camp.

Mess halls for Cubs.

My $0.02,

@RememberSchiff, sorry, but this does not meet the country-club merit-badge-mill motif we are going for.  Gotta shave off as much Troop & Patrol work as possible to maximize the number of merit badge classes a Scout can attend and be awarded!!! (I did not say earn)

C'mon, man! Get with the revenue program!

3 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

In the end, I don't think DEI will be the driver of program changes.

Agreed...the Cit in Soc MB is a pig in a poke.  With lipstick.

20 minutes ago, jscouter1 said:

my troop also requires a leadership camp for all scouts getting First Class

Adding to the requirements?? No no

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

Age based patrols are basically setting the scouts up to fail because they don't have a good example for how to succeed.

No, they aren't...the key is the Troop Guide. Wanna really understand the Troop Guide role?  Look at the patch.  He is the Patrol Leader-mentor.  We use Troop Guides to great effect.  Usually, they are past Patrol Leaders for their Patrol.  For six months, they go side by side with the PL of the New Scout Patrols until they "get it".  Six months is about all it takes, depending on program.  We camping trip every month, immediately followed by a PLC, a day trip every month, and have a service project every other month.  Plenty of leadership opportunities.

Train 'em, Trust 'em, Let them lead!

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

We have not had a dull time DE in my district prior to merger for at least 9 years, always having to share one with another district.  Since the merger in 2021, we have had 2 DEs.  One didn't even attend the district camporee. The other didn't  attend the council camporee, although she was brand new and I will cut her some slack. We have hand delivered advancement paperwork only to be be told "It was never turned in" (despite having a photo taken of the paperwork in fact being turned in because of previous issues). We needed professional help trying to get into the schools for recruiting, to no avail. When asked to focus membership recruitment on struggling units instead of starting new units, was told point blank they would start new units where "needed." And prices to use facilities and attend events have skyrocketed with no announcement. In fact prices went up, but the prices listed on the website are the old ones. 

Just makes you proud to be a part of it all, doesn't it?

^^^^^

There is no justice among men that can remedy this. My heart swells every time I read a similar account.

And my anger burns at the mostly now nameless and faceless people who protected pensions and organizations rather than flesh and blood.

It is my fervent hope and prayer that the burdens of victims be lifted one day with righteous judgment and recompense.

Welcome!

Constant contact through our COR.  Frequent contact with our IH.  Service projects and Eagle Scout Service Projects for CO, Scout Sunday, and participation in some of their events.  We are very satisfied with our arrangement.

I use my experiences in the military to teach these exact principles to Scouts.

It is a beautiful thing to see when a Patrol Leader understands his Mission/Task/Purpose and just gets it done.

Scouts tend to struggle with this at first, because they are so used to parents/teachers always telling them exactly what and how to do something, then constantly looking over their shoulders to see that it is done the way the adults would do it. (Russian style of leadership.)

Thanks for the video link! The US has been working with Ukraine over many years to teach exactly this Patrol Method style of leadership, and we are all watching the outcomes.  Very effective in combat, yes, but also very effective in any endeavor.

17 minutes ago, clbkbx said:

Ouch… I would also be too embarrassed to link to that partisan source (Jonathan Turley of The Hill).  

Integrity and ethics are very, very important but some hide behind the veneer of the institution. How does a victim of abuse in the BSA think when they hear trustworthy, loyal… ? I know it makes my stomach turn even as I try to follow the same principles in my life.

We need to track ethics and integrity by actions not words. SCOTUS has ideals of non-partisanship but politicians fight for the appointments… so the ideal is laughable.  Same for BSA in my mind, better to prove it than say it. 

Esse quam videre

Welcome!

And may the Good Lord bless you and keep you and smile on your effort!

20 Centuries of Catholic Church on review, but with obvious analogies to the century of BSA...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRsaxXrjk3w&ab_channel=playinhard

please take 20 minutes to view

43 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Scoutingers create is a place where young people can practice making decisions about other people and learn  from the results or consequence. It's and environment where fairness is learned from Scouters through the guidance of an oath and law. Scouting is whereers teach the meek learn to stand up and make a difference. Scoutingers encourages dreaming and making the world a better place. Scoutingers and Scouts saves lives and makes communities better. Scouting is a source forers and Scouts demonstrate the kind of peace the world is looking for today.

Hope you don't mind the suggestions.

It is we who do these things.  It is we who bring the idea to life.  Scouting is an idea and a movement, but it doesn't do anything of itself.

BSA is a organization with a culture... The people in that culture knew there were wolves in the fold.  They made decisions about dealing with the wolves that seemed (repeat, seemed) to sway more towards protecting the image and existence of the organization rather than the lambs in the flock.  And, the continued decisions, actions, and conduct of those people, throughout this process, still seem (repeat, seem) to belie an attitude which sways more towards protecting the organization, image, and coffers rather than damaged and crippled lambs who grew into the strongest sheep they could.  (Please pardon the analogy...it only goes so far, and I think stretched it a bit past that point.)

My allegiance lies with Scouting, not with BSA.  I am ambivalent about BSA's continued existence.  Scouting, I believe, will continue on without it.

And the wolves are still out there, BSA or no BSA.

8 minutes ago, jcousino said:

I can see how they had a major cow over that , they feel any thing done in the name of scouting belongs to them. I have seen  this before when troops would get donations form  bigger chains then the  chains would  tells friend of scouting campaigns that they have already given there allotment to scouts (troops). 

I would be interested to see how this plays off next year.as the Troop did not solicit solute the company ,but only benefited from a company worker policy.

PS about how much are we talking here?

 

john

Exactly, we did not solicit the donation.  Units may accept any and all unsolicited donations. 

Make sure you never give the council's or national's EIN when doing this, otherwise, the money is technically theirs!!  And use your CO's EIN only with permission!!  It's an IRS reporting thing

We are talking several thousand dollars.  $500 per employee per year...  YMMV

On 5/2/2022 at 4:19 PM, qwazse said:

When will they ever learn?

Rule #1 Don't ask for a rule, you'll live to regret it.

A grant is not fundraising. A grant is a commitment to partner with an organization who might provide the necessary funds to accomplish a project but cannot itself employ all of the laborers. Son #1's eagle project was grant-funded. Son #2's was expensed as part of his church's budget. In neither case did we push fundraising paperwork.

You need to heed your LC's guidance when it comes to funds that will build your troop's treasury.

You need to heed the grant's funding agency's guidance when applying to fulfill one of their projects.

The only consideration would be if the project looks way bigger than your troop can handle. If so, loop the LC in to see if it can be done in concert with multiple troops in your district.

Follow up:

So, it all depends...

Grants can be tricky, depending on the IRS reporting.  In order to apply for this grant, the grantor wanted an EIN to verify we were a bona fide non-profit.

Depending on nature of the grant, grantors and grantees may incur some IRS reporting requirements as well.

https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/private-foundations/grant-defined

https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/private-foundations/grants-to-noncharitable-organizations

https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/private-foundations/reports-from-grantees

In this case, we asked our CO if we could use their EIN.  They gave enthusiastic permission!

However, the grantor in this case rolls up all grants to Scout units in their program.  The question was, what will they do for reporting?  If they used a single EIN, and it was either a council or national EIN, then we would need permission to accept the grant from the EIN holder.

So I corresponded with their corporate finance office, and they assured me that their reporting did not use our CO, any BSA council, or BSA national info for their filing.

When I relayed all of this to our council finance and SE, they understood they had no dog in the fight.

You do not need council permission, UNLESS the council is your CO!

Scout on!!!

btw, @qwazse I only sought their input because of a certain animosity on our council's part towards our unit and the way we do business.  Council does not appreciate it when we know and apply the rules to our advantage....which we repeatedly do 😜  But you have to know the rules!!!  Especially when it comes to money.

P.S. Reveling in, rather than regretting this one

We live near a big pharma corporation.  Several parents work for them.  When the parents donate volunteer time to our Troop, the company will also make a $500 donation to the non-profit who sponsors you. 

We asked our chartering organization if they were fine with us using their EIN for IRS reporting purposes.  They gave us enthusiastic approval.

The first year we did this, the corporation sent the check, payable to our unit, to our local council.  Fortunately, someone in accounting caught it, instead of trying to deposit it for the council.

The council Director of Development was livid, and tried to pressure us into giving them the money.

Not only NO, but "H" "E" double-toothpicks NO.

I picked up the check from the council office with a big smile.

Scout on!

Just now, malraux said:

The Scout handbook is at least intended to last several years. The way cub stuff has to be repurchased yearly is really off-putting. New book, necker, hat, belt and socks yearly just feels bad. 

It is bad...no need for any of that.

It's just a scheme to generate revenue. 

3 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

I'm telling my parents to not buy the Cub Scout handbooks.  At $25 a year, it's another expense that really isn't needed.  Scoutbook has all the requirements and a little Google time will clarify any questions.  My kids haven't opened theirs on their own at all.  The Boy Scout handbook is probably more useful as it isn't a one year and done thing.

A Scout is thrifty!!!

3 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

What a crock of XXXX. 

Yeah, all around bad idea, IMO.  

Agree with @Sentinel947

11 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

Who's giving them PR advice? Survivors should ask the BSA for a Silver Buffalo Medal. 🙄

Call them and ask for your Silver Buffalo medal, certificate, and knot!

At around $25 per, and time to produce the certificates...if 10K survivors asked, you're looking at $250K min and a good amount of man-hours.

Anyone willing to call and find out the phone number/contact info for the process??