InquisitiveScouter

Thanks for opening up your story. I think you have a good outcome so far. And it seems as though the Committee stood up for you. (?) That means they may see things in sort of the same light as you do. Recommend you have a private chat with the other two Key 3 to confirm. As someone mentioned in your previous thread, a good idea is to always have an adult buddy with you. This has saved my behind several times over the past years, in different ways. IMHO, due to increased screen time (vs face-to-face time), young people (not just Scouts) are becoming less proficient at reading people and interpreting context and meaning. This means more of these situations are likely to appear. Any time I am doing stuff with Scouts (other than driving), I try have another adult joined at the hip. It is difficult, and ofttimes impossible to have them side-by-side (rather than present at the event doing other things). But, if you can get to that point, you will find you are less concerned about issues like this recurring.

By adhering to our legal principle of presumption of innocence. BSA has turned this on its head. If someone accuses in BSA, you are guilty until proven innocent. Except, you are never given the Kafkaesque opportunity to prove innocence. And even some who have been proven innocent are still left on the IVF. In the case @Eagle94-A1 relates, the Scout accused an adult of "solicitation of a minor" or "unlawful contact of a minor", or some other statutory violation. We should take accusations seriously, and clear the air when they are made, because sometimes, they are based on an inexperienced misread of the situation. https://www.blackburncenter.org/post/on-believing-victims BSA mindset appears to be that it can discard adults at will, and suffer no negative consequences. I would posit this as one of the many reasons, overall, that BSA is failing.

Recommended reading to help open your aperture a bit... https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/boyscouts/pdf/511-420.pdf

Assuming you mean the Historic Trails Award. https://www.scouting.org/awards/awards-central/historic-trails/ Yes, completed this multiple times. We are surrounded by many historic trails around here, fortunately with camping opportunities attached. However, it need not be one of the trails on the BSA list. There are literally hundreds of other opportunities for you to meet the requirements if one of the BSA trails is not convenient to you. Many state and national historic parks have opportunities for you. Any place on the National Register of Historic Places would qualify also. https://www.nps.gov/subjects/nationalregister/index.htm Sounds like what your are doing is on target. You may enter the completion in Scoutbook for your Scouts. No real need to file the application any more. That is throw back to a time before Scoutbook, when the Registrar would enter these kinds of awards on a Scout's (or Scouter's) record in ScoutNet. Enjoy!!

Character, citizenship, fitness, leadership... Would helping this Scout with 3 out of 4 be acceptable?

As @mrjohns2 relays, it is entirely up to the council. Start with the Registrar. Call and explain the situation. Ask if there are any Lone Scouts in your council already. If yes, then they will most likely add this Scout. If no, ask if the Registrar would support you if you asked for this Scout to be added as a Lone Scout. Although it is the SE's decision, it is the registrar who will gain the extra workload. So, if the Registrar is on board, it makes things easier. If the Registrar declines, then go ahead and call your SE and ask, but expect the answer to be "No". If "No" then ask the SE if they would support your calling neighboring councils to see if any will accept Lone Scouts. Keep pushing, courteously, and you will find a way.

OK, then you have a camping club, not a Scout Troop. "The patrol system is not one method in which Scouting for boys can be carried on. It is the only method." - BP I would submit this is where you have to start. “The formation of the boys into Patrols of from six to eight and training them as separate units each under its own responsible leader is the key to a good Troop." - BP If you cannot get other leaders to agree to this concept, and to help implement it, then you should leave and find another Troop...one that uses the Patrol Method.

What does your son's patrol want to do? Get another adult, and take them camping, if that's what the Scouts want. Does not have to be the SM on every trip.

@5thGenTexan, you don't need the council... What level did you get? Just order the patches, if you want them, and recognize your Scouts at the level of program they achieved. We filled out our worksheet, sent it to our FD (we don't have an assigned DE) with a cc to our District Commissioner (we don't have an assigned Commissioner), and ordered our own patches. Here's a link to Gold: https://www.scoutshop.org/no-name-provided-656986.html

If anything happens on church property, then the church will get dragged into the lawsuit. "Sue everyone, and let the courts sort it out," says the lawyer corps. (While the church hemorrhages cash in lawyer fees probably seeks a settlement.)

LOL, Don't know how they got this, but I remember Scouts singing "Come on Eileen! Oh, I slid on my winks..."

Don't overdo it at first... Just a tune or two during a lull around the campfire. Don't make it your show 😜 Make them short... Don't do 100 bottles of root beer on the wall. Don't demand that everyone sing... Youth often don't know the words, so are reluctant to sing. They have to hear the song many times before they feel comfortable with the words. Wanna help them? Print out a few copies and hand them out. Don't get upset if they wind up in the fire. In fact, make a game of that. Print on the bottom of it "Burn Only After Singing!!!" Learn Scout Vespers... that's a good one to start with. Learn America (My Country 'Tis of Thee) or America the Beautiful...

Yup! In a BSA context, I would say the term should apply to overnight camps where you stay in one place the whole time.

They couldn't anyway... NCAP specifically excludes unit camping, and directs it fall under G2SS: NATIONAL CAMP STANDARDS APPLICABILITY, SA-001 Exclusions. The World Scout Jamboree, National Scout Jamboree, and National Order of the Arrow Conference are mass events subject to additional health and safety requirements specific to those events which are equivalent to or more stringent than the National Camp Standards. Unit activities are subject to the Guide to Safe Scouting. https://pdscouting.wpenginepowered.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/2022-NCAP-Standards-v2-430-056.pdf

LOL, is the National OA Committee implying that a unit run "resident camp" must comply with NCAP?

Q/A: Resident Camping Requirement Q: I have a question about Unit Elections. For the camping requirement of six consecutive days and five nights of resident camping does the camping have to be at a BSA owned and operated camp, or can it be a unit long term campout allowed by the council? A: There has been some confusion over what camping qualifies in meeting the membership requirement for camping. Three factors apply: Camping must be under the auspices of an approved BSA program. The decision on what specific camping meets the spirit and intent of the camping requirement rests with the unit leader of the unit in which the youth is being considered for election. It is preferred that camping requirements be met as part of the unit in which the youth is being considered for election (i.e., troop, crew or ship); however, extenuating circumstances may exist (e.g., in cases where a youth did not have an opportunity to meet the requirement with the unit), that make it appropriate for unit leaders to consider other BSA camping experiences (e.g., a Venturer counting camping nights completed with a troop or camping nights completed while serving as a staff member at a council camp or national high adventure base). In each case, the unit leader must satisfy themselves the spirit and intent of the requirement was met (i.e., it was indeed qualifying outdoor camping). The term "ship nights" refers to nights during with the individual slept overnight on their ship. The ship need not be underway during that period for the nights to qualify. This does not say that the resident camp must be at a BSA owned or operated facility. If the national Order of the Arrow committee had wanted to say that, they would have. The language used was very carefully composed. If a unit runs their own long-term resident camp, "under the auspices and standards" of the BSA, it qualifies. The BSA does have very explicit standards for a resident Scout camp, requiring much more than just a week long campout. Your local council camping committee can provide more information on what the current standards are. Some of the confusion may be caused by an error in a recent printing of the Boy Scout Handbook, which stated the camping had to be at "a local or national council facility", but that is incorrect. https://oa-bsa.org/resources/faq/resident-camping-requirement

OK, still having coffee and waiting for my teenagers to get out of bed, so... Back to philosophy. Here's another twist: Q: Who decides what camping activities qualify for the camping requirement needed for election to the Order of the Arrow? A: With the camping requirement, as with all other eligibility requirements, it is the unit leader's job to interpret whether a Scout has met the requirement. As stated in the Guide for Officers and Advisers (2021 revision, page 18): Other than defining the length of time needed for a camping activity to be considered a long-term camp*, the National Order of the Arrow Committee leaves the interpretation of the camping requirement to the unit leader. * A "long-term camp" is one consisting of at least six consecutive days and five nights of resident camping. A "short-term camp" is anything less than that. https://oa-bsa.org/resources/faq/camping-requirement-interpretation Unpack that one 😜 For the letter-of-the-lawyers, define "resident camp"

Love it; will do!

From the article: "Short-term campouts provide variety in both preparation and experience, and the Scouts are more likely to have to set up their own tent and take more responsibility for outdoor living skills. A long-term summer camp is still a long-term camp even if the Scout is there for only a portion of the time. It’s an entirely different adventure and usually doesn’t call for the same level of self-reliance required for a short-term camp." I think we'll count the canoe trek as 5 short-term camping experiences, with a day of canoeing between each one 😜

Same reasoning I was questioning, @UKScouterInCA. It is all poorly worded. I believe the intent is to have a Scout set up camp multiple times, in a multitude of different settings, and fit into the mindset @qwazse outlined above. Look at the relaxed OA requirements for camping above. If you are a letter-of-the-law person like @mrjohns2 , then a Scout could have camped in his own back yard 27-31 May (5 nights in May) and then 01-05 June (5 nights in June) and have been eligible with short term nights. Never move his tent for this "virtual camping" experience. Not exactly what we'd be looking for, huh?

Not shirking. But I am a spirit if the law person, rather than a letter of the law type.

Troop was camping. This Scout is also deeply active in school, sports, band, and church. I wish every Scout was as well rounded as he. Don't jump to conclusions without asking about the facts. You aren't making a very splendid figure @mrjohns2

The canoe trek was August. Election is early Jan. We have one trip sched next month for 2 nights. He'll be short 2, unless we count all the nights of August, then he'd be over the requirement.

Concur... but he has not been in Scouting for full two years. Joined at 13. Very active, great skills, and participates a lot. Def an "honor camper" already. I think it would be a disservice to him (and the Troop) to have him wait another year.

Have experienced 15 nights of Scout camping while registered with a troop, crew, or ship within the two years immediately prior to the election. The 15 nights must include one, but no more than one, long-term camp consisting of at least five consecutive nights of overnight camping, approved and under the auspices and standards of the Boy Scouts of America. Only five nights of the long-term camp may be credited toward the 15-night camping requirement; the balance of the camping (10 nights) must be overnight, weekend, or other short-term camps of, at most, three nights each. Ship nights may be counted as camping for Sea Scouts. OA "Selections" coming up. (They are not really elections. ) We have a First Class Scout who attended Summer Camp, so has the long term nights covered. After camp, he also went on our canoe trek of 6 days and 5 nights. Each day, they packed up camp and canoed to a new site, setting up a new camp. I think we should count those as short term versus long term nights, for eligibility purposes. I believe the philosophy behind the eligibilty requirement is to eliminate camping in one place for the required nights. Thoughts? Also to inform the discussion, consider 2021 OA policy: The limitation on counting no more than three (3) nights of virtual short-term camping in a single month is increased to five (5) nights per month. All other requirements for virtual short-term camping eligibility remain in effect. The requirement for a long-term camp of five (5) consecutive nights is relaxed. While council long-term camps should be utilized if available, any combination of short-term and/or long-term nights, in camp or virtual, that are part of a BSA unit-organized unit camping event held within the two years prior to election may be counted toward the 15 night requirement.