InquisitiveScouter

No, that isn't the issue. I know many Arrowmen who are in good standing in their units (the people who honored them with the recognition in the first place), who do not wish to be associated with a lodge. I am one of them The purpose of the OA is not to put another rock in a Scout's rucksack. LOL, no! https://oa-bsa.org/about/organization-structure Lodges At the local level, lodges exist to serve BSA councils and individual units. The key leaders in the lodge are the youth lodge chief, volunteer adult lodge adviser, and professional staff adviser. The lodge chief presides over the Lodge Executive Committee, which is responsible for executing the annual program of the lodge. While each lodge is different, the Lodge Executive Committee typically consists of one or more vice chiefs, a secretary, and a treasurer, as well as chapter and/or service area chiefs and operating committee chairmen who are responsible for various aspects of the lodge’s program. Many lodges, especially large ones where additional structure is necessary, have service areas and chapters to chapters. These often align with BSA districts and execute the program of the lodge on a community level. Units do not exist to support the lodge! You have it backwards! This is one key reason that the OA does not fare well. Many lodges are like big self-licking ice cream cones. They exist primarily to serve themselves, and that is why many unit leaders do not allow the OA program in their unit! (You do understand that principle of prerogative?) Here, the OA created a Venturing unit just to provide lodge members a place to keep their BSA registrations so they could continue to serve the lodge without being involved with any local units. The Venturing unit is a "shell corporation." How do you think the unit leaders in this council view that Crew? As a leader, I encourage our youth to participate in the lodge, if they wish. But, they are under no obligation to do so. I also tell them that, if that participation detracts from their service to their unit (i.e., the people who selected them for the honor in the first place), then they have misplaced their priorities. Your policeman analogy is unintelligible, and does not clarify.

What does a Scout do [with a previous award] if they convert to another faith? - The Scout may continue wearing the "previous" award at her discretion. Do they need to do the program over again or can they simply switch the pin to the one corresponding faith they now follow? - The "program" is different for each faith. That is, the requirements for a religious award for each faith are different and often have different levels based on age/grade. If the Scout wishes to earn the award for her new faith, she must complete its requirements (from scratch, so to speak). - A Scout may not earn an award in one faith and then wear the 'equivalent' award from another faith, as the requirements for each award are different. That is, having a religious award from one faith does not grant you the "analogous" religious award in another faith. As stated above, the specific religious awards are not BSA awards. BSA recognizes the accomplishment when a youth completes the award requirements sponsored by a specific faith. A recognition of the accomplishment comes in two forms: 1. A medal (or some other recognition) is awarded by an organization sponsoring the award of that particular faith. BSA does not procure nor award these "medals" You must get them from the specific organization/faith to be presented at a ceremony of the Scout's choice. You can find a list of contacts for those organizations here https://www.scouting.org/awards/religious-awards/chart/ Many of those awards have links you can follow to view the requirements. Some even have a downloadable workbook. YMMV. 2. Once a Scout earns the particular award, then she is entitled to wear a knot on her uniform signifying the accomplishment (wearing the medal previously awarded might be kinda clunky on the shirt) The knot for youth is this https://www.scoutshop.org/youth-religious-award-knot-5007.html And multiple levels of the award are recognized by device pins, corresponding to the program of Scouting during which the award was earned. Here is the Scouts, BSA device: https://www.scoutshop.org/boy-scout-pin-device-927.html and these are BSA items Here is some more info explaining the program... https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2017/11/13/scouts-guide-earning-religious-emblem/ And you can find out how to wear them in the Guide to Awards and Insignia https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33066/33066_Religious_Emblems_WEB.pdf Finally, any youth/adult may earn these awards. They do not have to be Scouts. To wear the BSA knot and devices, you must be a Scout/Scouter. Hope this answers your questions.

Your thinking is right on this... And I am VERY glad you have a culture in your unit where this is the case. (The youth wanting to continue to be part of the program.) But, there are clear boundaries, as you point out. What they want is not Venturing. What they want is Rovering!! http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/rovers.html

With a larger Troop, this does require a bit more scrutiny well before the OA selection. Our selection night is next week, and the SM Corps has been in discussions about who is eligible. Ultimately the SM's decision, but he has wisely asked for input from the ASM assigned to each Patrol, and our ASM/OA Troop Advisor

So, to be clear, are you saying that Joey Scout, who is elected by his unit and goes through the Ordeal (having paid the fee and his membership dues in the local Lodge for the year), and becomes an Arrowman, that he ceases to be an Arrowman when his dues lapse next year for the local Lodge?

And yet they have not been removed, nor changed, nor further clarified, in spite of any "blowback." And I have no contention with anyone's statements about what the attendance policies or standards are for Lodge, Section, Area (or Service Territory), or National OA events. Never made any assertions otherwise.

The absolute funny thing is, that I used to be of that mindset, during some of my tenure as Lodge Chief x 2/Vigil Honor (1984)/Ceremonies Team Chief x 6/Unit Elections x 2 /National Leadership Seminar/NOAC, etc etc. .etc But I had a great mentor who had been a Vigil Honor since the 1930's, was instrumental in founding many lodges in the Southeast, knew and worked with E. Urner Goodman, Carroll Edson, and J. Rucker Newbery, and a Lodge Advisor for another 25 years before I came along... He pointed out the same principles I am pointing out to you.

Although I would withdraw my parent example based on this... Any registered member of BSA who is an Arrowman may wear his insignia. He is a member of the Order, regardless of lodge affiliation.

Your statement is in direct contradiction to that published on the National OA site. https://oa-bsa.org/article/ask-chairman-can-members-who-are-not-dues-paid-wear-lodge-flap I'll go by what they say, thanks!

LOL Yes, you should continue after reading the following: Let's start with the Purpose and Mission of the OA: https://oa-bsa.org/about/mission-purpose Mission & Purpose For over 100 years, the Order of the Arrow (OA) has recognized Scouts and Scouters who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives. This recognition provides encouragement for others to live these ideals as well. Arrowmen are known for maintaining camping traditions and spirit, promoting year-round and long term resident camping, and providing cheerful service to others. OA service, activities, adventures, and training for youth and adults are models of quality leadership development and programming that enrich and help to extend Scouting to America's youth. Mission The mission of the Order of the Arrow is to fulfill its purpose as an integral part of the Boy Scouts of America through positive youth leadership under the guidance of selected capable adults. Purpose As Scouting’s National Honor Society, our purpose is to: Recognize those who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives and through that recognition cause others to conduct themselves in a way that warrants similar recognition. Promote camping, responsible outdoor adventure, and environmental stewardship as essential components of every Scout’s experience, in the unit, year-round, and in summer camp. Develop leaders with the willingness, character, spirit and ability to advance the activities of their units, our Brotherhood, Scouting, and ultimately our nation. Crystallize the Scout habit of helpfulness into a life purpose of leadership in cheerful service to others. Please show me ANY statement in the above that membership requires a Scout to do anything with the Lodge after completing his induction. 😜 Here's another reference: https://oa-bsa.org/article/ask-chairman-can-members-who-are-not-dues-paid-wear-lodge-flap Please note, "An Order of the Arrow member can always wear their sash and the Universal Arrow Ribbon once they have completed the induction. However, wearing a lodge flap indicates that their current dues are paid in the specific lodge that the flap represents. So, if the individual has not paid their dues, they should remove the flap from their uniform." If you actually bothered to read the "mountains of literature" with intellectual honesty, you could only come to the conclusion that you are mistaken. And I agree with your statement about NOAC, but that is irrelevant. I made absolutely no pronouncements about NOAC or any other lodge, section, or National events like that. OA business includes unit OA elections, where any Arrowman may wear his sash, regardless of his current lodge affiliation. OA events at Summer Camp would also fit the bill. OA days, OA Ice Cream Socials, Call-outs at the campfire, etc. etc. etc. An Arrowman may wear his sash for those events, regardless of his current lodge affiliation. Parents who are Arrowmen, and no longer affiliated with BSA, but observing the induction of their Scout at an Ordeal may wear their sash while attending, regardless of their current lodge affiliation. You must make a distinction between being an Arrowman and being a lodge member. They are two separate statuses. Once inducted, you are ALWAYS a member of the Order of the Arrow. Once you let your dues lapse in a lodge, you are no longer a "member in good standing", but retain your status as an Arrowman. The honor was given by an Arrowman's unit, not by the Lodge. Please continue, because you said "several" of my original assertions were incorrect. You have yet to name any that were incorrect. I'll leave you with two thoughts that apply in the situation: "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." "When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest."

No one said otherwise. Read the post... That means events and business... What other points are incorrect??

This is the cancer that has eaten BSA away...

Since it is not really an election, but rather a selection, now, I do not ask. What I do tell them is that Order of the Arrow is part of our UNIT program, not the Lodge program! WE use it as selection for an honor within OUR Troop. I have talked with many Scouts who fear one of three things: 1. I'm rejected. OK, so what? So now you KNOW, rather than walking around guessing. And that is an indication to you that there MAY be some area for improvement... if you should decide to improve. Would you rather know, or would you rather guess? 2. I do not want to be in the OA. Fine, no one says you have to go through an Ordeal. But, if you are selected by your fellow Scouts, you now have OPTIONS. 3. I'll deny someone else the chance (rare). NO! Because it is not an ELECTION. It is a SELECTION. No one else loses a slot because of your being on the Selection Menu (versus ballot). By the way... and I have said this around here until I am BLUE in the face. An Arrowman's FIRST duty is to his UNIT! Not to the lodge! Nothing obligates you to service to the Lodge. If you choose to go through the Ordeal induction Ceremony, you are ALWAYS a member of the Order of the Arrow. Should you not wish to pay the dues next year, you will not be a member of the Lodge. So what? You still may wear your sash at any and all OA observances. Just take off the flap...

Ordering patches now

So did we! Wait... are we in the same unit??

Well... 30 days... right? 6b. Develop and describe a plan for improvement in each of the activities listed in Tenderfoot requirement 6a. Keep track of your activity for at least 30 days. 6c. Show improvement (of any degree) in each activity listed in Tenderfoot requirement 6a after practicing for 30 days. 30 days later Push-ups ________ (Record the number done correctly in 60 seconds) Sit-ups or curl-ups________ (Record the number done correctly in 60 seconds) Back-saver sit-and-reach _________ (Record the distance stretched) 1 mile walk/run _____________ (record the time)

Agreed. But there are some who cannot "get it", even though you explain it ten times. Also, I do let Scouts use the laser to point out the North Star to me, as a check of whether they have "got it." I was surprised at how many, for instance, know the method... pointers stars from the Big Dipper , then five times the distance to hit Polaris... but in practice it seems only about 70-80% can do this. That is, I ask them to tell how to find the North Star, then they explain it, and point in the general direction, but when I give them the laser to show me, they are off by a lot. This even even after I have them use the two sticks in the ground method of aligning a "gun sight" (so to speak). This also helps tremendously with Astronomy MB, Req 4: (a) Identify in the sky at least 10 constellations, at least four of which are in the zodiac. (b) Identify in the sky at least eight conspicuous stars, five of which are of magnitude 1 or brighter. For these, I use star charts, drawings, apps, telescopes or binoculars on a tripod, and pictures before pulling out the laser 😜 It is just one of many resources to use...

If you see that as the point, then please, follow your beliefs and never go into the woods again. Also, please stop using electricity, because the windmills are killing far more birds... As for me, until something more conclusive than your concoction emerges from scientific study and observation, I'll happily bring out my laser pointer to educate Scouts. Happy Scouting

From post yesterday...

And btw, I am a Leave No Trace Master Educator. Never in any syllabus item or class of instruction have we discussed laser pointers. Just did a quick search of ALL my Instructor materials issued by BSA and LNT.... how many hits for 'laser'?? Zero. And, you can use "Mr. Google", too! (and it is rather sexist of you to assume Google is a 'Mr.' 😜 but we will allow it ) Search the lnt.org site for the word laser, and you know how many hits you get? Zero. OK, so I'll go another mile in those shoes... https://www.sfvaudubon.org/a-guide-to-bird-locating/ Laser Pointers: Pen-sized lasers are now available in various powers and produce either a red or a (preferred) green beam. Many professional tour guides use them; not all are equally adept at using them. The key is to start from something obvious like a large rock or tree trunk. Starting somewhere close to the bird is far less important. Once everyone sees your laser “dot”, they can follow it as you move it along trunk, limb and twig to the bird. Never shine the beam on the bird. Keep the dot where the bird cannot see it so you don’t startle it. Just below the bird works well, as does slowly circling the bird. The dot will display better on solid objects like trunks or twigs than on leaves. Avoid jerky movements. In a forest of leaves, a moving laser beam scatters over many yards. Birders more than a few feet to either side of the pointer-holder sees only a series of bright dots scattered over many leaves and won’t have a clue as to which dot is nearest the bird. Warn the viewers of this scattering and reduce beam movement to a minimum. Your Honor, I rest my case.

I'm not gonna do the heavy lifting on your argument. If you actually have a position to support, then support it. Thanks @qwazse! And the dispersal method is actually to aim the laser at the birds! https://biglasers.com/blog/2022/08/16/understanding-green-laser-pointers-for-canada-goose-control/ Of course I would never do this... And, if you've ever used one responsibly, you know it only takes a second or two of pointing at your star to have everyone know exactly which one you are talking about. It's nothing like the duration of say, those Christmas laser light displays people put up on their houses which go all night, in indiscriminate directions.

Citation required.

Your house lights, and the lights in your neighborhood and city disorient migratory birds more than any laser you will use in the wild... Physician, heal thyself... https://www.birdconservancy.org/lights-out-for-birds/#:~:text=Light from big buildings%2C street,visibility of the night sky.

LOL, that's for those inconsiderate people who point them at animals. Certainly check the rules for wherever you are going. And I recommend adults only handle the pointer.

Actually, looking at Scoutbook to refresh my recall... There are THREE dates recorded for a rank: Date Earned Date Approved/Recorded Date Awarded The clock for advancement to next rank starts from Date Earned.