InquisitiveScouter

We def need some common sense tort reform

Because of the exorbitant cost (IMO) of most providers, I took a trip to Philmont and became a Wilderness First Aid Instructor for Emergency Care and Safety Institute, through the course at the Philmont Training Center. Took the family with (four of us, total), and it was a great "vacation." (Highly recommend that to everyone. PTC has some great courses.) Now, I am certified to teach WFA, FA, and CPR/AED. I did have to lay out an investment in course materials and training aids... several thousand, in fact. I charge less than half of what any provider charges, and, over the years, the course fees have more than paid for the CPR manikins, AED trainer and supplies, and approved course materials. I teach about one class every two months. (Have to teach two classes per year to remain current.) For each class, I say the training (my time) is free, but the digital certificate you have to pay for 😜 Lots of Scouts just opt for the training, to fulfill requirements for badges. As they get older and land jobs, many pay the nominal fee to get the certificate. Adults all get the certificates...

I hear this, too, and it baffles me. Realistically, 21 MB's is not difficult over a seven year span, if starting from cross-over. When BSA allowed young ladies to join and pursue Eagle, my daughter took the challenge. She asked me for advice on how to map out the program. We sat down and did that, looking at a timeline to complete it in the 19 months minimum required. She earned exactly 21 MB's, and completed the program in about 21 months, and still felt "rushed" in her words. (Of course, she had to wait for the Inaugural Class to be recognized at the 24 month mark after joining Scouts, BSA.) She never attended Summer Camp in BSA as a camper. She did work one summer as staff. Went to four years of Summer Camp as a Girl Scout. Overall, though, she enjoyed the process (especially doing Automotive Maintenance MB with dear old Dad!) Dear Eagle Scout son will turn 18 this month. Has 45 MB's, and has done seven years of Summer Camp. He only did three "Eagle-requireds" at Summer Camp: First Aid (which I had to go over with him again because he didn't really do the requirements at camp), Swimming, and Environmental Science. These last three years of camp were his favorite. Going to camp, hanging out with friends, having free time to chill in Hammock Hollow (that's what they called their Patrol's hammock encampment 😜), taking only one or two badges each summer. (of things that he really wanted to do... SCUBA, Shotgun Shooting, Wilderness Survival, Small-boat Sailing, etc.) He said these last few years have been the best. Too many people focus on the destination, rather than the journey to get there. https://mindfulambition.net/journey-over-destination/

But, @DuctTape , it is just so much easier if we all just do the same things together!!! Same meals, same activities, same campsite, same trail, same badges, same skills, etc... LOL Can't tell you how many times I have heard that... When was the last time you saw a summer camp that was patrol oriented? I mean, really patrol oriented?

There is a discussion of the role in G2A and the ESSP Workbook, but G2A specifically cites the Coach as optional for the Eagle Candidate.

It teaches them that there are jerks in the world who desire power for power's sake. They will have to deal with the same "in real life," but I have made a hobby out of smashing these "rice bowls" and finding ways to streamline processes. Best wishes to you guys.

Call the District Advancement Chair (DAC) to discuss this. Requiring and Eagle Project Coach is adding requirements to the process, which is strictly forbidden. When you talk with the DAC, ask if the District has someone who will review his paperwork as Eagle Project Coach. Tactfully, if necessary, explain why your son does not wish to use the existing unit coach. The District or Council may have someone who is acceptable to work with. A phone call may clear this up. If the DAC is adamant your Scout use the coach he does not wish to, then have your Scout submit the proposal, as is. You follow up with a note saying you counseled your Scout on the importance of a coach, but he has declined to use one (with excerpted verbiage from the GTA). If it comes back from District denied, then immediately start an appeal process. There is no Eagle Project Coach signature block on the Proposal Approval page! How old is your Scout?

National Scouting Organization? Context?

LOL, even that question is trolling 😜 For the benefit of those you have successfully trolled: Trolling The art of deliberately, cleverly, and secretly p&&&ing people off, usually via the internet, using dialogue. Trolling does not mean just making rude remarks: Shouting swear words at someone doesn't count as trolling; it's just flaming, and isn't funny. Spam isn't trolling either; it p&&&es people off, but it's lame. The most essential part of trolling is convincing your victim that either a) truly believe in what you are saying, no matter how outrageous, or b) give your victim malicious instructions, under the guise of help. Trolling requires decieving; any trolling that doesn't involve decieving someone isn't trolling at all; it's just stupid. As such, your victim must not know that you are trolling; if he does, you are an unsuccessful troll.

Understood. Ever hear of the phrase "shooting the messenger"??

I eagerly await this 😜

Now @Calion is just trolling. No further responses needed for this one. "Don't feed the trolls."

By doing it.

A 2015 council-sanctioned event: https://patch.com/new-jersey/baskingridge/cub-scout-pack-451-camps-out-rides-hovercrafts "Then the boys put on their helmets and rode hovercrafts across the gym floor—Back to the Future style."

This is what ours looks like! https://m.facebook.com/Troop276ByramNJ/videos/hovercraft-building/1015360082344677/ And another! But this guy is whipping it around in a "target rich environment" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTQjchn1KHE&ab_channel=videopapa

Not off topic at all! We have a home-made hovercraft we ride during our Webelos Open House recruiting event. It is an electric leaf blower mounted on a large plywood disc with a plastic sheet for a skirt. We have it on a tether for safety. The kids love it! Wish I had a video. Oh, Lord!! Is that a "vehicle"???... I guess it is... so now that's prohibited, too! Here's the concept... (ours works much better) https://www.facebook.com/Pack109ValleyStream/videos/-bullyhovercraft-project/1031681453610163/

@RichardB, what is the best way for us to give constructive feedback regarding the G2SS (and related policies)? Should that feedback be funneled to you, or somehow to another office of the BSA staff, or through our local council as a starting point? I sincerely hope the answer is not the last, as, over the years, I have had many valid concerns and observations disappear into that black hole. Most councils are very much afraid of seeming to have dirty laundry, and avoid (or ignore) these exchanges like the plague. (Why is that?) Thanks in advance for taking to time to share your thoughts & observations.

We used the bed of the pickup truck 😛

Thank you for answering. Your method of clarifying never ceases to amuse.

I'm not convinced you do see. Here is the way for you to do this successfully: 1. Convince the SPL (& PLC) of the need for Patrol Yells. If you need to convince them, "appeal to the resource" like I did in my post above (copied here for you.) ------------------------ If they don't have a yell, then they are not a patrol. It is part of the Patrol Method. Scout Handbook, page 26: "Patrols have yells, too. If your patrol is named for an animal, you can use that animal's sound - the howl of a wolf, for example, or the hoot of an howl. Or your patrol might decide on some other shout that identifies it. Members can give the patrol yell whenever they do well in a troop competition or reach an important goal, and even when they're ready to chow down on a camp meal." (Reading between the lines... not optional...) Scout rank requirements: 3b. Become familiar with your patrol name, emblem, flag, and yell. Explain how these items create patrol spirit. National Honor Patrol Award requirements: 1. Have a patrol name, flag, and yell. Put the patrol design on equipment and use the patrol yell. Keep patrol records up-to-date. -------------------------- 2. Do not sign off another Scout rank until that Scout can tell you his Patrol Yell. Tell the Patrol Leaders this. 3. Set the example: How about the adults come up with a Patrol Yell? If you cannot be silly and try to establish some esprit de corps amongst the adults, then they aren't going to do it either. 4. Make a game/competition of it!! (Incentivize the behavior you want... aka, BRIBE THEM) At the beginning of the next meeting, offer an ice cream bar to the patrol with the best yell. See what results you get. If none of them take you up on it, have the adults do their yell, then eat the ice cream in front of them. (If any patrol does a yell, the adults automatically lose!!!) 5. The next time you have any event, ask for the patrol yell. Tell them they cannot participate until they do their yell! They will figure it out!! Want to climb on the climbing tower? The price of admission is your Patrol yell. Want to swim? The price of admission is your Patrol Yell. Want to shoot at the Archery range? The price of admission is your Patrol Yell. 6. Explain what the National Honor Patrol Award is. Ask if any patrol will take the challenge. Part of the challenge is to do a Patrol Yell. They will figure it out! 7. Change your thinking... It is not a Troop made up of Patrols. It is a bunch of Patrols that come together to form a Troop!! The Patrol comes first! Therefore, the Patrol Method comes first! Patrol Yells are integral to building team team spirit (esprit de corps) in the Patrol! 8. Tell them it is not a permanent thing!!! They can change their patrol yell any time they want! Whatever they come up with initially, they are not stuck with! It is theirs, and they can change it! 9. Make sure they know that a patrol yell is expected of them! At events like Camporees and Summer Camp, the staffs should be "enforcing" the Patrol Method. (This is one way I know whether it is a good event/camp or not. 10. Here are some examples of ours. (At the risk if identifying who we are 😜 ) A. Our oldest Scouts are in the Coyote Patrol (they chose the emblem long long ago) . Their yell (and the are usually the loudest) is a twist on the Arby's commercial: "Coyotes! We eat the meats!" B. Next up, the Spartans (again, they chose their patrol name). "This is SPARTA!!" while doing a big muscle flex. C. Then we have the Hawks. the PL calls "Hawks, Assemble!" and they all get up in his face and yell "Caw!, caw!, caw!" [Yes, I know that's what crows do... but I don't care! It is theirs, and they LOVE it!!) D. Next is the Black Wolves. "Black Wolves, Black Wolves, we howl at the MOON!" E. The Punk Rock Pineapples... (I'm still scratching my head on that, but it is theirs, and they LOVE it!!) "Punk Rock Pineapples! We rock on!" F. Finally, the Flaming Arrows: "Flaming Arrows, Flaming Arrows, we light the way!!" Ultimately, this is EASY! Don't get yourself into too many contortions over it. Tell them the job that has to be done, and let them figure out a way to do it. It is not for you to spoon feed them!!! And oh, by the way... yes, you can figure out how to ties the knots yourself. Please refer to your Scout Handbook, which also has a section on Patrol Yells. Happy Scouting

There is no prescribed "when or how." That's why I said "Yes" to all your presented situations and all those of the other posters. The original problem is actually only this: Your patrols are not doing patrol yells. Now, for your Scouts, that may not be an actual problem, because they could think it is goofy, stupid, and unnecessary. But, I would argue, patrol yells are fundamental to the Patrol Method. Does your SPL see the need for Patrol Yells? If not, start there. If your SPL agrees they should be done, then just challenge him to find a way to implement. This is not really something for you to solve for them.

Yes I know those, but that did not really address the question. Is a physician signature required on the agency form for all BSA SCUBA participants, whether the agency requires it or not? That is, if a participant has NO medical contraindications, must they still be cleared by a physician, with a signature on the agency form?

@RichardB, the current online version (Feb 2023) (and Feb 2022 download version) incorporated a change in BSA SCUBA Policy, Medical Contraindications section. Currently, prior to doing SCUBA events, each participant must complete the specific dive agency's medical form with the following additional instruction. "The BSA requires review and approval of the completed form by a physician." The last time we conducted a SCUBA event, the 2019 policy applied, and it was written thus: "The BSA requires review and approval of the completed form by a physician even if the scuba agency itself does not require physician approval." (emphasis added) All SCUBA agency forms have the diver fill out a more detailed questionnaire (than BSA AHMR covers), but, if there are no "contraindications", then these agencies themselves say on their forms that no doctor signature is required. I have attached the PADI form as an example. Under the questions, it says, "If you answered NO to all 10 questions above, a medical evaluation is not required. Please read and agree to the participant statement below by signing and dating it." (emphasis added) Even under the old policy, the Summer Camp our Scouts attended for SCUBA did not enforce the 2019 BSA policy requiring the physician signature. (We did at our unit level, but divers from other units did not have a physician's signature. I pointed this out to the Camp Director (a professional), but he told me he wasn't going to enforce it because the commercial vendor conducting the SCUBA at the camp did not require it. When I filled out our camp survey, I documented this for their council review process, but never heard anything of it afterward.) As I read the current policy, it still seems BSA wants a physician's clearance for all participants. (That is, to have page 3 signed by the provider, regardless of medical status.) So, why eliminate the "...even if the scuba agency itself does not require physician approval." which seemed much more clear? Can you shed any light on this?? Am I interpreting the update incorrectly? P.S. Before our last event, I spent almost an hour on the phone with the SCUBA policy expert at Sea Base clarifying the 2019 requirements for diver to instructor & certified-adult ratios (which is clarified better in the newer policies.) 10346E_Diver_Medical_Form.pdf

OK, I can see where that might need clarifying, then.

Just learned today that E-bikes are now specifically prohibited. I guess BSA had that question posed several times, even though it is obviously a "motorized vehicle." February 2023 version, Prohibited Activities, Item 6 (no page available yet, as updated pdf is not posted for download): 6. Motorized vehicles used as program or activities—including all-terrain vehicles (ATVs), off-road vehicles, motorized personal watercraft (PWC), snowmobiles, E-Bikes and motorized speed events (exceptions: council-approved ATV and PWC programs that comply with National Camp Accreditation Program [NCAP] standards; go-karting conducted at a commercial facility that provides equipment and supervision of cart operation; youth completing the Motorboating merit badge) This specific prohibition was not listed in the Feb 2022 download version (still available at the pdf link online.)