InquisitiveScouter

Here's another one... In the early 80's there was a US Army Ranger program for youth at Mt Yonah in Dahlonega, GA. (It is still going, but much different today... https://www.nega-bsa.org/Ranger) We had a few of our older Scouts attend. Of course, they became immediate "experts" in climbing and rappelling 😜 They wanted to showcase their new-found coolness, and the venue our Troop selected was our annual Scout Show. We worked with the fairground managers and our local power company, and sank four telephone poles into the ground there. Then we got the lumber, hammer and nails, and built a 30 foot rappelling tower. It was the hit of the Scout Show. We had an assembly line of Scouts helping people tie a Swiss seat harness. (A requirement only recently removed from Climbing Merit Badge. And, no, there was no Climbing MB back then.) Visitors would then climb up ladders to the top, and rappell down a doubled-up Army-issue twisted nylon rope, with a single carabiner. No helmets. A few of us demonstrated Australian rappell. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAnxYKUVNVI&ab_channel=SkillsforClimbing (That's not a video of us, of course.) Again, thank the good Lord, no one got hurt. But, knowing what I know now about safe climbing practices... we were dangerous, and put a lot of folks at risk.

If you submit the form for a carwash in July, and get declined by your council, I recommend you do it anyways. (I would be absolutely shocked if they declined.) Just inform parents that you are doing it on behalf of your CO, to benefit your unit through them, and that the BSA insurance does not apply in that case. BTW, do your unit parents know that BSA insurance is supplemental only? (There are some exceptions where it is primary...) That is, it only covers the copays for things. There are a few other benefits, but I would not rate them as significant enough for you to cancel your car wash. Again, inform them and let the Scouts and parents decide. I would not view that as a violation of the "Obedient" point of the Scout Law, in this case. You attempt to get it done under their guidelines. If they refuse, their own policy says your fundraiser is not covered under the insurance of BSA. Fine, do it as a CO group. One last caveat. Make sure your COR knows and approves. The CO CAN ABSOLUTELY SAY NO.

Please don't portray it that way to your Scouts. We live in a society of rules (and laws). No, Scouts do not get to make up ALL their own rules and laws. (Inmates running the asylum?) It's a good lesson that, any time you are dealing with money, you must be careful and know what you can and cannot do. It can also be a safety issue. Back in the 1980's, we youth leaders wanted to earn some money. We had adult leaders with chainsaws who agreed to teach us how to use them. And we had an old beat up '73 Ford farm truck with a trailer to haul away the wood. We then went out and cut down trees as a fundraiser. As long as it wasn't near power lines or structures, we would do them. And back then, you only had to have one adult present for a Scout function. It is only by the grace of God none of us ever got hurt... We made a heck of a lot of money, but it was foolishly done. It is a good thing there are rules made by adults, in many cases 😜

Always good to point out, though... units may accept unsolicited donations. That is, let's say you are selling popcorn, and your potential customer looks over the popcorn offerings (at their outrageous prices) and declines, but offers you $5 for your Troop. May you accept? Of course! And your unit keeps 100% of that. If the donor asks for a receipt... well, that is worthy of a separate post, and only if you want to know...

https://www.parentadvocates.org/nicecontent/dsp_printable.cfm?articleID=6970

@Maboot38, consider the source... I think in your other posts, you indicate this policy information came from a Unit Commissioner. Great, but the UC isn't the authority on this. What @RememberSchiffposted is... That is, the council can set additonal fundraising policies above and beyond what national lays out. I read through the link he posted. (If that is your council, I recommend it... it is well done 😜 ) The policy statement mentions a few key points: - Units can conduct all kinds of fundraisers - Units must apply for permission from the council to conduct a fundraiser (see the form) - "Do not schedule a project that conflicts with established dates of money-earning in the chartered organization, council, or community. " This is a deconfliction standard, so that units aren't all doing different fundraisers which impact each other, and cause "donor fatigue" in the community. Basically, it looks like that council is saying "We will most likely not approve unit fundraisers while our council popcorn sale is ongoing." - If you elect to go rogue, you will not be covered by our insurance. If you want to do a fundraiser, submit the form and see what happens. You never get what you don't ask for.

You bring up a great point! You have to "know what right looks like" before you can imitate it... This is why good leaders create a vision of success for their teams. The leader sets what "right looks like", and then has to communicate that vision to the team, and lead them toward it. If your council organization is floundering (and it sounds like it is) you don't really have a good model of what "right looks like" And, I have met many a professional who does not know what right looks like... we can teach them, too (if they are teachable, but that is another post.) That is one of the great uses of this forum. There are folks here who have seen the magic of what right looks like... And it is a beautiful thing to behold. BUT, it takes WORK to keep it right!! There is no vehicle on land, no ship at sea, no plane in the air, nor craft in space that doesn't require constant vigilance, checking, and maintenance by her crew. The same is true for our organizations. When an organization reaches a "somewhat" state of excellence, its decline is inevitable if the leaders "rest on their laurels" or people in the organization just want to rest on the work of others. This is one big contributing factor to why organizations fail. There must be an attitude of constant improvement through training, accountability, humility, sharing of leadership and followership, and transparency... An Air Force pilot gave a great TED talk on this... see link below for an approx. 10 minute video. [I would have an idea correction for him... change "perfectionism" to "excellence". ] (And, btw, this culture is prevalent in ALL Air Force flying squadrons, not just the fighter squadrons 😜 ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YErxkPyPP8M&ab_channel=TEDxTalks

You, my friend, are experiencing Webelos 3!!

Welcome, @AmberG! Thanks for the post, and for reviving an old thread. Trust is extremely important. It is earned, and can be easily lost through inconsiderate acts.

Welcome!

So, did you get your Stegosaurus Husbandry Merit Badge?? 😜

Agreed.

Totally agree... and I did not ask anyone to decide between anyone or anything. I merely noted observations and experiences... and I agree that all these decisions are local. However, that was not the deeper point... I'll endeavor to make the point here, after answering a few more of your charges 😜 Sure, concur... but ambition (and enthusiasm) must never be confused with ability nor achievement. And I never remarked on probability of the event. I merely noted the timeline, and asked the question... No, I sought to head it off long before that. Since you are ignorant to my circumstances, I'll enlighten you... I submitted my Eagle Scout application 11 days before my eighteenth birthday, but only at the urging of my Scouter mentors, Council Exec, and Council President. I had decided not to submit it. For a variety of reasons, including some of those I mentioned, but also, from a religious perspective. You see, during my journey as a Scout (started at 13), I became a Christian (at 17), and I was learning quite a bit in my new faith. I had reached a personal conviction that I did not deserve the Eagle rank... But, when a group of my adult mentors (including the Council Exec and the Council President) found out about this, they staged an "intervention" (if you will). They sat me down and explained that, that of the Scouts they knew, I was among the top in their regards. And that, if anyone had attained what they thought was an Eagle Scout, I had. My most treasured mentor spoke to me about law and grace... In my thinking, by the law, I was not deserving of the rank. But he asked me to see it more through a perspective of grace... in that, no matter how hard we try, we can never fully live up to the Scout Oath and the Scout Law... none of us... and if that is the case (which I know that it is), then who among us ever deserves to be afforded the honor? This is where the grace (if you will) comes in... in that we must trust in the adult leaders around us that we have reached a level (or measure) of character, citizenship, and fitness that marks an Eagle Scout. I trusted in their words and judgement, and submitted the application. I even said this in my Board of Review... and told them all about being caught "trading" merit badges as a camp staffer, and how I had seen this as disqualifying. My Board of Review chose to see it in the way my mentors did... and they awarded me Eagle rank... You read way too much into the post... Yes, I assume the same with anyone who wears an Eagle Scout rank (or any person at all, to be frank)... but I reserve any judgement until I get to know the person. You must get to know them, and see their character (and this takes time). The real measure of a Eagle Scout is not in the achievement of any requirements... it is in the realization that asking perfection of anyone (including yourself) is impossible. The real merit is in the continued striving to do so, and having the conviction to take up that mantle every day, through every failure and triumph... to keep those lofty ideals ahead of you as an aimpoint; to recognize and admit your weakness in attaining them, yet continuing to strive for the mark... I've not found that awareness or conviction in any 12 year-olds I have ever met... and in only a few 22, 32, 42, 52, 62, 72, etc .... year-olds.

Some wandering thoughts on @PACAN's question, "How does this happen?"... Well, as you know (but for the edification of others), the requirements can be completed in 19 months, with the following being the "limiting" factors... - 30 days for Tenderfoot fitness requirements - 28 days (four weeks) for Second Class fitness - 28 days (four weeks) for First Class fitness - 4 months to Star ("be active" requirement) - 6 months to Life ("be active" requirement) - 6 months to Eagle ("be active" requirement) So, give or take a day or two, 1 year and 7 months to complete in minimum time since joining. And what is the earliest one can join Scouts, BSA? "Youth can join a Scout troop who have earned the Arrow of Light rank and are at least 10 years old, or have completed the fifth grade and are at least 10, or who are 11, but not yet 18 years old." Parse that out, and a youth can join Scouts (begin working on requirements) on their 10th birthday (with either Arrow of Light or 5th grade complete.) So, the earliest a youth can be awarded Eagle Scout rank is at 11 years and 7 months of age. (Can you imagine that??) The difficult part in accepting this is that we have in our minds what an Eagle Scout "ought to be." And it is highly unlikely that most under the age of around 13 or 14 are "there." (In my experience, they aren't "there" until about 15 or 16.) But there is no objective way to measure that... To quote an old mentor of mine: "If the minimums weren't good enough, they wouldn't be the minimums." The real issues in most of these cases lie in two areas: leadership and merit badges From my observations, we (collectively, the adult volunteers in Scouts, BSA) do a horrible job in teaching/crediting leadership, and in holding to the requirements for merit badges as counselors. Many Scouts hold a position of responsibility in a unit, but do little to nothing to fulfill the leadership requirement, because no one sets standards, expectations, and goals, and then holds their feet to the fire to meet those standards, expectations, and goals. From the Guide to Advancement 2021, "4.2.3.4.3 Meeting Unit Expectations. If a unit has established expectations for positions of responsibility, and if, within reason (see the note under “Rank Requirements Overview,” 4.2.3.0), based on the Scout’s personal skill set, these expectations have been met, the Scout has fulfilled the requirement. When a Scout assumes a position, something related to the desired results must happen. It is a disservice to the Scout and to the unit to reward work that has not been done. Holding a position and doing nothing, producing no results, is unacceptable. Some degree of responsibility must be practiced, taken, or accepted." Secondly, most Scouts (including me, when I was a youth) do not "earn" the merit badges. That is, Scouts commonly do not complete the requirements AS STATED (nothing more, and nothing less.) This is especially true at summer camp. There is a whole lot of pencil-whipping going on. G2A 2021: "7.0.0.3 ...Universal to all the merit badges, however, are the methods of advancement, personal growth, and adult association. Here we will focus on adult association, which is furthered through experiences involving discussion, counseling, and learning that are facilitated not only by a merit badge counselor, but also by the unit leader." How many of your Scouts were awarded merit badges from a 15 year old at summer camp, without ever having the "adult association" that is supposed to be "universal to all the merit badges" ?? And how many sat around a picnic table for four or five days and were given a badge, without having completed the requirements AS STATED??? So, like you, when I see a really young Eagle Scout, or someone with all the merit badges, I know there is an extremely high probability they did not "earn" it. If we want "better" Eagle Scouts, then we adults need to be better people to set the example for them, and hold them accountable for the requirements as stated. Is there any one of us who consistently aligns our actions with our words in the Scout Oath and Scout Law? No. But I am only responsible for my own actions, decisions, and integrity. I will try to keep my honor bright, and when I wake up tomorrow, I will try to be better than I was today. I do find that my uncompromising attitude on requirements drives a lot of adults and youth away, to find the easier path that is out there. As I tell many parents, it is easy to lie, cheat, and steal your way to getting an Eagle Scout patch. But having the patch doesn't make you a good Scout. There are a handful that become true disciples of the Scout Oath and Law... and these become really capable Scouts and leaders. Some even have Eagle Scout rank. Your thoughts?? Happy New Year

@SSScout, Hope I catch you before you fire off a note (pun intended) to BSA... Please check your notes (pun #2), and you'll note (pun #3) that 14 of the 15 bugle calls required, indeed, only four notes. Only Call to Quarters requires five (the fifth being the single low C, see link) http://www.usscouts.org/mb/bugle_calls.asp Now, it is a travesty that they dropped the requirements to play 10 of the 15. Just more signs of the times, I guess...

With this, I am in complete agreement. Thanks for finding some good common ground.

LOL, who downvotes the asking of serious questions? And that, by the way, is a rhetorical question 😜

WAGGS and WOSM are not the only organizations in the Scouting movement.

What is the right amount of global heat? What is the goal of this effort? Is it to create some kind of climate stasis? What is an "acceptable amount" of climate change? (Because, it has changed across the eons...) Whom are we to believe? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6GS2HjCg-M&ab_channel=MallenBaker https://www.lobservateur.com/2023/08/20/experts-say-climate-change-is-a-hoax/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhendrickson/2012/09/16/climate-change-hoax-or-crime-of-the-century/?sh=4e2a06df76d3 https://www.prageru.com/video/is-there-really-a-climate-emergency https://www.wsj.com/articles/climate-activists-disasters-fire-storms-deaths-change-cop26-glasgow-global-warming-11635973538 I'd rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned. - Richard Feynman

...mind-boggling and enraging.

Isn't "corroboration" up to the police investigators? And the decision on whether to press charges and pursue the case is on the DA? Victims or families do not get to decide whether to press charges. That is up to the DA. At least in our state. Not the job of BSA professionals to determine if there is "enough to go on"... Defamation (with libel and slander) involves making statements which are not true, or can be proven not true. "Truth is widely accepted as a complete defense to all defamation claims." https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/defamation

Choosing to be offended again?? 😛

Thanks for demonstrating my point. Be the friend at the door. As the one correcting cousin Tommy, send @Ojoman a private message.

It's a balance, and a coping skill. As a survivor, I find nothing offensive in @Ojoman's post. I find the perspective very different than mine, and much more sympathetic to BSA as an organization. I am not blind to what is offensive, because, for me at least, I look for intent. I see no intent to offend in those remarks. Hence, "...even when it isn't there." Being kind works both ways.

If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for, even when it isn't there.