InquisitiveScouter

Who, what, when , where, how, why?? Tell us about the event, intended audience, who is putting it on, where is it, when is it, what is the purpose of the event??? Then we can give you some great ideas on how to sell tickets for it 😜

Then, it is not a "fine." A Scout is expected to pay his way... so pay your way, either through the fundraiser, or with the buy-out.

Welcome! Who, what, when , where, how, why?? "Fine" is probably a "buy-out" cost. That is, for the Troop fundraiser, there is an expected amount each Scout will raise to offset unit expenditures. If you do not raise that amount, you must make it up. This is normal, and helps prevent someone from taking advantage of the diligent fundraising efforts of others in the Troop.

Excellent. And as long as the Troop is consistent in applying this for all Positions of Responsibility, then I am all for it! A good leader communicates, confirms understanding of, and enforces expectations 😜

"Rules for thee, but not for me." Unfortunately, we have to work very hard to avoid these kinds of people. Yes, it is less headache all around. But, it is also a life lesson, as you will NEVER be rid of them. Sometimes, you have to feed the dragon. As for me, my tactics are to learn all the rules, and try to think about why they are in place. Then, I find ways to work within the system to maneuver around those people who do not know/follow the rules and just want to have their own fiefdoms. There are times when you win, and times when you lose. Some of the greatest warning phrases you'll hear when you are encountering these folks are: "That's the way we do it here." (The message here is that "We know better." and "We are above the rules.") "That's the way we have always done it." (Versus an explanation and justification for the rule. It's just plain lazy thinking...) "That's the way I was taught." (Well, maybe you were taught incorrectly?? What does the book say? What is the reason for the update?) Asking you "Why?" (instead of asking themselves "Why not?")

@swilliams, Another point... Are you prepared to fully fund this project now? Doing a GoFundMe, or soliciting donations from anyone outside your family will require additional paperwork which will further slow things down. That paperwork DOES have to go to council. But, only AFTER the Proposal has been approved by Council or District Project Approval Representative. See Fundraising Application Page A (did he already get signatures on this one, too??) If you have the ability to fund the project, do it.

If you have records for all this, we can submit an appeal to National and get this Master Sergeant his Eagle Award. Mostly, we would need the application. If he did, in fact, have his requirements complete before 18, National will award the Eagle. They are not usually martinets about the date of a form... You willing??

@swilliams, sent you DM as well, but for the benefit of others: If he has all signatures, have him email the Workbook (with pdf of signature page) directly to the Council or District Project Approval Representative. Contact info on proposal page B. Give a brief explanation... something like Eagle Project Coach made a commitment to submit on such-and-such a date, but this has not happened. Ask for a reply email to acknowledge receipt. He has off from school today for the holiday, right? When he sends it, have him cc his SM and Unit Advancement Chair. (again, see contact info page.) And just make sure you are holding on to any email history sent. This will buy him extension time, if needed. Any extension granted may only cover time lost since he submitted his proposal to Eagle Project Coach. His other impediments on previous projects will probably not carry any weight. ----------------- Also, some process notes... "Council" should not see his workbook until after project is complete (even if that is their process.) This is all in the hands of volunteers at this point. Specifically, the Council or District Project Approval Representative, who is most likely a volunteer. ------------------- Have a heart to heart with your son, and make sure he is committed to this. It is worth doing! If he gives up, he will regret it for the rest of his life, and be bitter about the people who have let him down thus far. Convince him to go down fighting. If he does have today off from school, after his sending in the Workbook, turn him to his Merit Badges. He has a lot to do!

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. $10K - $15K is a good range for houses in your area...

Cutting off their nose in spite of their face... I see you are in Central NJ. DM me, please. If we are close enough, and you are willing, you can have your Scout multiple into our unit. We can get that proposal moved in quick time... I also have some bandwidth available and extensive contacts. Let me know what MB's? (Some can be done entirely over Zoom, if your Scout has done his/her homework.) Always remember... it's the adults that ruin Scouting 😜

I sympathize with your plight. And despite all the promises and pronouncements made, I have always harbored a suspicion that this was never about justice for victims like you. It was only a legal/business play made by BSA National to reduce exposure and protect assets. The real outcome (currently) is that it has added insult to injury. I am still hoping for some sort of positive outcome for all of you. Specifically, if the current Chapter 11 falls through, I hope the window opens for many of you to bring perpetrators and/or responsible parties to court for judgements or settlements. God be with you, and grant you some peace...

Only they got the script wrong... "I was an Eagle Scout." For shame... I AM an Eagle Scout 😜

No. We group patrols by age. If younger ones want to join a backpacking trip, we have to factor in the two-years in age difference rule for tenting. Otherwise, elders help the juniors. If a small group, we do not allow for "strung out" backpacking. Put the slower paced up front. If you have eight or more, split into two crews. Recommend not backpacking with more than 12. Gaggle, noise, space, courtesy, impact, etc... If you are lucky enough to have more than twelve (and four adults), split into groups that go opposite directions on a loop. High fives when you pass each other out on the trail... Also, with larger groups, we will divide into crews of three, four or so (two buddy pairs, or a triple). Set out about five to ten minutes apart, after map study and rally point are understood. Slower paced first, then a little faster, then a little faster. If multiple adults, two adults go after first or second group, but do not pass. Two adults go after last group as sweep. Learn trail etiquette... step aside and let faster groups pass. If only two adults, then one adult goes behind first group, one goes with last group (fastest). At the rally, last group arriving gets a full rest period. Then start off again in same order (or revised, based on slower paced first.) This spacing is a health and safety issue for me. We all need to provide mutual support in an emergency. Stringing out makes accounting for everyone, and taking advantage of first aid resources and rescue options extremely difficult. One of the most mind boggling things to me is the tendency of older, faster Scouts to hike with their face in the backpack of the person in front of them. So, a few times during the trip, we practice lightning safety spacing... 100 feet apart while making our way to "cover". You should try this. It is an eye opener for group dynamics, communication, planning, and keeping track of the party.

Instructors should not also serve the role of evaluators. I agree with @DuctTape's train of thought. It's not about "doing it twice." In fact, a Scout should "do" as many times as necessary to acquire the skill, THEN be tested. He only has to pass the test once.

No, brother... Chief Scout of the USA! With you as National Commissioner, we stand a good chance to turn this ship to a better course!

- What best practices can you share? Planning! Planning! Planning! And let the PLC decide what they want to do. Adults should zip it. You are there for health and safety 😜 - What defines a backpacking troop, anyway? Up to you! A Troop "ought" to be camping every month (12 times a year.) JTE Gold level asks you to have 9 short term and 1 long term camp (so 10 times). I would define a "backpacking troop" as one that does at least half its outings as backpacking... so 5 or 6 times a year. - How does your troop prepare recent crossovers and other young/small/inexperienced Scouts for backpacking? We split up and have about 4 patrol outings per year in the troop program, Older Scouts are more likely to choose backpacking. We do 15-20 milers. We also shoot for one long term backpacking trip per year... 5 days, 4 nights, 50-miler. We do not encourage young/small/inexperienced to do backpacking. But neither do we discourage. It's simply a question of weight ratios! (nod to Monty Python) Scouts need to bring between 25-35 pounds of gear/food/water, depending on length of trip and weather conditions. Beginners should stay about 25% of their weight. So, a Scout ought to be around 100 pounds before they start backpacking. Even then, other Scouts usually wind up carrying some of their gear, or at least much of their share of patrol gear. So, we do some training outings, day only. Show up in the morning for a gear shakedown, then carry a full pack for a day hike. If a Scout has issues, maybe he needs to wait before going backpacking. Don't set them up to be miserable. Scouts will try to take on much more than they can handle, so let them learn before throwing them in the back woods. How many backpacking trips does your troop typically do each year (and what do you do the rest of the year)? 3, with one long term trip, IF that is what the PLC (or Patrol) has decided to do. Rest of the year, we do whatever the PLC has picked for program in their Annual Planning Conference. THIS IS THE WAY! If you converted your troop to backpacking, what challenges did you have to overcome? Our PLC did not "convert", but they did add a great deal more backpacking over the last four years. Gear (for Patrols) has been the issue. In your experience, how does backpacking support the patrol method? Every person for himself is not Scouting. You may have a great backpacking trip, but if you are not using the Patrol Method, you are not Scouting. Doing it by Patrols is more difficult... Patrol plans their budget and menu, shops for the food. Meets ahead of time to divide and pre-package, where needed. Two white gas stoves per patrol. One tent per two Scouts,. Bear bags or bear canisters, depending on destination requirements. Patrol first aid kit. One water filter and tablets as a back up... we boil all water. Simply put, it is the only way to be sure you kill everything. (this one will draw fire....) https://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/pdf/drinking/Backcountry_Water_Treatment-508.pdf Lots more to add... but I gotta do some chores!

My first troop was a backpacking troop. We had about 25 Scouts. At meetings, we would run one mile for conditioning. Most weekend trips were 15 or 20-milers done as loops. We would drive to a campsite, or trailhead on Friday night and camp nearby, usually within a mile or two. Ten+ miles on Saturday, then finish off the rest on Sunday to where the vehicles were. We were organized as patrols at the Troop meetings, but it was every man for himself on the trail. Bring all your own gear and food. It made things really easy for the group, but there was no patrol method. Had a great time and lots of adventures. I moved away for about two years. New troop was all patrol method. Very different. No backpacking. I always felt k8nd of out of place. When we moved back, the first Troop was down to about 7 Scouts. No new Scouts had come to the Troop. I think it was because the backpacking-only thing was not a big draw. Still had lots of fun and adventures. When we got a new SM, he brought in Patrol method. Another local troop folded, and all their Scouts came to us. Completely changed the flavor, but it was more Scouting. One trick ponies don't work out well, IMO. I have seen several troops like that wither away across the years.

You are correct. Might be a bit passive/aggressive, but if you want, you can go into Scoutbook, open their profile, select Memberships, and end the ASM role the same day as it began (not sure you can delete that entirely...). As to the Committee stuff... that is under his purview, so out of your lane. Also, it is up to the Scoutmaster as to whom can sign off requirements. Since you have not appointed him as an ASM, you should tell him to cease signing off requirements, if that is your desire. Now, unfortunately, a Unit Advancement Chair and the CC still retain that capability in Scoutbook, but that is a flaw in the application design.

Ok, CC is the only registered position there. The others are functionals assigned through the Organizational Manager in my.scouting.

Ok, curious... what are they registered for?

Anyone can take an application to Council. You just need the COR signature on it. The current person need have no role in that...

Oh, and what position are they registered for in my.scouting.org? (NOT Scoutbook... Scoutbook is scoutbook.scouting.org) Your Registrar would not have assigned them to a Committee Position and an ASM position. Your my.scouting login should be the same as your Scoutbook login credentials, unless you have used your Google to sign in.

Acknowledged. Sounds like you have also had a personal discussion with them and it was not fruitful. That train may have left the station, but... Do you think another personal discussion would help? If yes, focus on the person's behavior and how it is affecting the unit. Explain that one of the repercussions of taking on too many roles is that of creating a single point of failure. That is, if something were to happen to them (which no one can control), and because replacing them would require getting many people to step up and fill the roles, then having them do so much is exposing the unit to suffer MORE. Another way of putting it is that this person, with all the wonderful things they do, is creating a strategic vulnerability for your Troop. They should understand why this is an unacceptable situation, and agree to let others take on those roles... others whoa re already willing to step up. You said if they take on CC only, that would be great, but, given the scope of what you have described so far, I personally do not believe this person would confine themselves to that role. Your reality may be different... If you and others in the Troop believe you have reached a point of no return, then the only call is removal. Do not do this until you identify someone (and get their agreement) to take on the new CC role. Identify the CC replacement. Get the COR to approve (it's their call). The COR should be the one telling the person about the change of positions. Sort of an "Thank you for your service to the Troop! We have decided to give others a chance to lead. Effective immediately, you are no longer the Committee Chair." kind of thing. Fill out an application for the new CC. and run it through the system. This will cause some hurt feelings initially. Be Prepared to deal with disgruntlement. Follow @Jameson76's advice above, and have cake. It might help if you identify a Committee Position or ASM role (not both!) for the person to focus on to help the Troop. If they refuse, cut them loose. Expect them to leave the Troop. This might be the best for you unit in the long run. You are experiencing the most painful thing about Scouting... Adults ruin it! [If all goes amicably, fine. But, if there is any kind of scene in front of Scouts (recommend you do this when Scouts are not present) , or any inappropriate behavior, have COR ask them to leave the premises or be reported for trespassing. Make sure the COR is willing to follow through with that by calling police to remove them, should it come to that. Notify your Scout Executive if you have to do this. Obviously, if anything worse happens... threats, property damage, violence... then you call authorities in ASAP.]

Understood. Most likely, pointing out rules isn't going to curb their behavior. Sounds like you'll need an intervention, of sorts. How engaged is your Chartered Organization Representative, and do you know who your Unit Commissioner and District Executive are? How many other like-minded volunteers/parents have you discussed this with? Are you considering leaving the unit if things aren't resolved?

So, if this person were to limit themselves to one function, which do you think would be most value-added to the unit? For any position you pick, I could point out a list of responsibilities, most of which are likely NOT being taken care of, or done well, at the moment in your unit. Most volunteers I work with simply do not have the time required to dive deep into a position and do it to a level of excellence. Many do a passable job, and that has to be good enough... A good handful don't do much at all, nor care to learn what it takes to make a Scouting unit function well. These are the ones who need training and motivation, or need to be moved out of the position...