gpurlee

Best wishes for a wonderful Thanksgiving from your moderation team. We are thankful for each and everyone of our forum participants!

Area units in our council have been told that this is no longer an option. Apparently, there are concerns about the legal standing of these groups unless they have been registered with the Secretary of State as a not-for-profit entity. This may be a local interpretation related to specific state requirements. In addition, consider if a major, long -established organization is reluctant to assume the liability risk of sponsorship, would a group of parents really want to assume that liability and potentially place their home and other assets at risk in today's environment? Remember that many of the current chartered organizations are dropping units because of the perception that the BSA may not provide promised insurance coverage and they potentially could be facing hundreds of thousands of dollars of unreimbursed legal expenses.

What denomination is your current sponsoring organization?

I think that the reality of the full extent of potential liability is sinking in for many chartered organizations. As Eagle1993 states, many CO's have traditionally maintained a hands off distance from their Scouting units. And that will come home to haunt some of them. In our area, what we are seeing is that CO's are choosing not to move to a facility use model. Instead, they are evicting Scouting units all together. It does not seem to matter if they are sponsored by the UMC, the Roman Catholic Church, Baptist. Units have been served notice that the CO will no longer host Scouting. It appears that half or more of our local CO's are dropping their units like a hot potato. Add those losses onto the major membership losses due to the pandemic and the picture is sobering. I think we are likely in the middle of the largest threat to the survival of Scouting in its 111 year history. I suppose that should not be a shock, when CO's are being advised by their denominational leadership that they should consult an attorney before rechartering so that they fully understand the potential risk. For many CO's this is simply not an acceptable risk. And. finally, there is a growing perception among CO's in our area, that the BSA is no longer a trustworthy partner. There is a concern that the BSA has reneged on its past assurances to provide insurance and legal protection to CO's in the event that an allegation of abuse is made. Unless the BSA can act very quickly to address these concerns, the future of the program is in doubt locally.

The distinction between information and a solicitation may not be clear cut. This may be especially true when copying a third party posting. For me, the distinction includes: (1) Is the posting potentially offering a service or product which could be monetarily reimbursed? Certainly an attorney such as Tim Kosnoff or another professional could be in the position of offering a reimbursed service. (2) Is there contact information such as a telephone number or e-mail provided which could be used to conduct a transaction? This applies whether the individual is offering a service or selling a product such as Scouting memorabilia. The original poster clearly was not offering his services but the copying and posting of the third party information could be seen as a solicitation on the forum even if that was not the intent of either the OP or Mr. Kosnoff. My email is tim@kosnoff.com<mailto:tim@kosnoff.com>. My cell number is 425-830-8201. I respectfully urge you to listen to the lawyer that listens to you and returns your phone calls. If the contact information listed above had not be included, I personally would have fewer concerns that it might be viewed as a solicitation (even if that was not the intent of any of the parties). My opinion. Hope that helps. GP

Wow. This has a long tradition. When I did research on our council camp which opened in 1928, there was a newspaper article that a Wali-Ga-Zu would be held as part of the opening ceremonies. I did not learn the origin or meaning of the event but it appeared to be very similar to what you described.

Perhaps you will be surprised. That might be a very politically astute move on the part of the BSA. On-going credibility for the BSA is likely to be an issue and appointing persons who are good vocal advocates for youth protection and will hold their feet to the campfire could be a wise option.

This case has been in litigation for some time, well before the bankruptcy. It has been a major scandal in the Louisville community with multiple police officers charged. It essentially ended the Exploring program in the council. The Louisville Courier-Journal has done very detailed coverage of the specifics of the case. https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/crime/2020/11/11/lmpd-explorer-scout-program-sex-abuse-scandal-timeline-of-events/6224235002/ https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/2021/11/01/louisville-explorer-scout-sexual-abuse-cases-settled-million/6238607001/

This case hits far too close to home. My son had an interest in law enforcement and I encouraged him to visit this post. I had had great experiences in Exploring as a youth and the post appeared to have a great reputation. Fortunately, my son also had a passion for music and was involved with a band that began to travel nationally. So he did not have the time to join the post. It would have been right at the time this nightmare was unfolding. The depositions in this case were horrifying and the actions done by the post leaders were sickening. But for the Grace of God ... The good news is that my son pursued a degree in law enforcement and is serving as a law enforcement officer today.

I have not heard the specific number (or taken time to count the filings), but hundreds if not thousands of chartered organizations also filed claims to protect their interests. They are now being notified that they will be receiving the disclosure information and an accompanying ballot. It will be interesting to see how the non-LDS organizations vote. I suspect that most will vote as a bloc following the recommendation of their national organization. In addition, weren't there several others such as suppliers who also filed claims? And would they not also have the right to cast a vote? In a close vote, every vote can have an impact.

Welcome to the forum! That sounds like a great STEM activity. Looking at your troop information, you have had balloons circle the globe and sent a balloon up during the eclipse a few years ago when there was totality over your area. I like the hands on opportunities that members of the troop have. And also congratulations on 110 years of continuous service to the youth of your community.

I want to take a moment to respond to ThenNow’s excellent follow-up questions about my post earlier this afternoon. Unfortunately, I could not respond immediately when I had to rush a family member to the emergency room. Things have settled down enough for the moment, that while I am waiting for news, I will give it a try. My initial post was essentially an affirmation of Vol-Scouter’s still earlier post concerning the national BSA review process and limitations. Much of my information comes from national and regional training and conferences on youth protection that I attended This is the summary of the process as explained to us: The membership of the individual named in an allegation is immediately revoked if they are still active and they are prohibited from participating in Scouting activities via a certified letter. They are informed that a report has been filed with local law enforcement. The BSA process is to report allegations of abuse to the relevant law enforcement agency. It is up to the discretion of that agency to determine the next steps. Factors may include the strength of evidence, consultation with the prosecutor’s office and certainly stature of limitations. If the alleged abuser is determined to be deceased, I do not know for certain if the alleged acts of a deceased person are reported (thus, I prefaced for the most part). The BSA also reports the allegation to the executive officer of the sponsoring organization, the chartered organization representative and committee chair-person(s). My understanding is that there is no initial review or vetting. Each claim is treated as legitimate at the initial reporting stage. The BSA’s primary goal is to immediately protect youth by removing the alleged abuser and to notify the appropriate law enforcement agency. Only later may an internal BSA review by initiated at the national level upon request of the alleged abuser. This process has yet to be established in the bankruptcy claims process. Sharing of Information At the beginning of the bankruptcy process, strict rules of confidentiality were developed and agreed to by all the parties. Access to individual claim information is very limited to protect confidentiality of those involved and named in the claim. Anyone who has access to claim information must first sign confidentiality and non-disclosure agreements. A large number of parties have been granted full or limited access by the courts. They include but are not limited to: The court and court staff, the claimant attorneys, the TCC, national, regional and local chartered organizations, approved BSA national staff, approved council staff, law enforcement and other approved parties involved in the bankruptcy. Thus, information on specific claims cannot be shared beyond the approved individuals. Confidentiality is paramount with potential legal consequence for failure to adhere to signed agreements. The comment made by a well informed participants in one of the meetings discussing the bankruptcy was that there was a wide range of claims submitted. This matches what we already have learned through a variety of channels including court documents. It was stated that there were clearly some well documented and evidenced claims that were horrifying and would keep you awake at night. And there were other claims that based upon the information submitted, did not appear to show any sexual abuse or violations of youth protection guidelines that were in place at the time. Of course, no specific claim information was ever shared. Schools were used as an example when the speaker was questioned. In the 1960’s, 70’s and later, it was common for sports teams to be expected to shower after competition. Often coaches were present in the locker room, especially at away games. Would mandatory showering by youth in view of adults be considered sexual abuse or violation of the standards of that time period? Ultimately this question may fall to the Settlement Trustee to determine. I hope that more fully addresses and clarifies my comments. Thanks for asking.

And that is a concern with the present bankruptcy claims. For the most part, the persons named as an abuser in a claim were automatically removed immediately from Scouting without any review or vetting of the claim. This is done to attempt to ensure youth protection. I have been told by individuals reviewing the claims that this occurred even in cases where the claim states no apparent act of abuse or violation of a youth protection guideline that was in place at the time of the alleged incident. And this is an additional concern when there are allegations that some of the claims may have been altered in the solicitation and submission process. Unfortunately, at this time, the BSA has no process for appeal or review in place apparently, at least until the bankruptcy plays its way out. Persons who request a review are simply sent a response stating that while this may seem unfair, there is no approved review process at the present time. As a result, several persons named even in what appear to be clearly frivolous claims are now in a state of limbo. And unfortunately, once the bankruptcy process concludes, there may well be a lengthy backlog of cases in which a review has been requested. Assuming that the individual still wants to be a part of the program after enduring the stress of the process. Courts have held in some previous decisions that while the BSA can develop and apply their own membership standards, individuals do have a right of review and due process. But the BSA can use its own review process and committee to review the process.

Thanks for reminding us. This is the largest international event that will be done this year. There are many ways to participate as has been noted. And you can receive a cool patch to add to your collection. The local amateur radio operators group has hosted an event with our council for many years.

This number is consistent with the information that was shared with us at a national denominational workshop on child and youth protection prior to the bankruptcy. I agree that a deeper dig into the information and statistics is needed. How many of these are substantiated reports as opposed to initial reports? What have we learned from these reports? Based upon these learnings, do we need to revise our current "best practices?" It sometimes seems that every bit of new information opens up a dozen new questions.

Credibility - that will be the issue today. If the "star witness" comes across as sincere and has a ton of supporting documents, e-mails and other persons who back his statements, it will likely be a devastating blow to the BSA. If it turns out that there has been an effort to falsify information or hide the extent of the youth protection issue, the BSA stands to lose not only external credibility but also internal support. If the BSA is to survive, it must be prepared to make a compelling case that statistics show the program is safe and they are committed to youth protection. They will be forced to decide whether to portray this person as a disgruntled former employee or a person who stands to potentially earn hundreds of thousands of dollars as a expert witness, speaker at conferences and retained consultant. I agree that the BSA must respond rapidly and nimbly - qualities that they have yet to show that they can do. If they truly believe in their motto, they would already be well prepared for this day as part of their crisis management planning. We will soon see. I also agree that there may be unintended consequences for all parties. And I suspect that there are longer term "game plans" now in motion that go beyond the immediate issues. This may be the opening round of an entirely new front.

According to the operations manual, it indicates a problem with the coolant level for the nuclear reactor that powers the forum. I am sure that it is nothing to get too concerned about however.

As Eagle1993 stated in an earlier post: (1) We try to watch the discussions closely. (2) We recognize that this is a very emotional topic that many will never agree upon. And value the diversity of information and opinion represented on this forum. (3) We ask that the conversations remain respectful. And for the most part, they do. Thank you all for that.

Several years ago we hosted a Swiss exchange student for several months who was a Scout (Pfadi). He told us that there was a Swiss Scout summer camp in which over 150 pregnancies resulted. I thought that was a Swiss myth until he showed me the link to the newspaper article. Needless to say, the Swiss Pfadi organization made multiple changes.

As referenced earlier in these postings, this statement is being released by UM conferences across the nation today. It lays out the mediation goals that the UMC ad hoc committee and others are working to achieve: The United Methodist Church has four goals to meet through the mediation process: The healing of survivors and commitment to how we will continue to work to end abuse. Our congregations and UMC leadership have and continue to make progress on ending abuse. Less than 1% of our cases occurred in the last 20 years. The other 99% occurred prior to 2000. While this is significant progress, we strive to work toward ending abuse. Gaining a release for all of the UM claims against our congregations that will prevent anyone from suing a congregation for a claim directly related to Boy Scout activity prior to 2020. Not using a congregation’s insurance to resolve any of the more than 5,200 UM claims. A financial settlement. We want to assure you that our UM chancellors (legal advisors) and more than 200 UM leaders are working on your behalf to reach these goals. In addition to pausing all rechartering through March of 2022 and continuing with the present charter or facilities use agreement, today, we ask that you pray for the survivors’ healing. We also invite you to pray for those leading this effort. God has gifted us with compassion and wisdom to reach just settlements and faithfully steward the resources of The United Methodist Church. As others have mentioned, the challenge may be to slow the stampede to the door to totally drop Scouting. In our local area, several UMC congregations have already informed their units and the local council that they will no longer be participating in either chartering or providing facility use.

OK, I hid a couple of comments that I felt were a bit too descriptive for an open Scouting forum. While they may be historically accurate, they felt a bit uncomfortable for me. I have asked the other moderators to review my action just to make sure I am not being a prude. I am sensitive to the fact that we have readers of all ages and I would rather err on the side of being a "safe" site for readers of all ages. Which is really difficult given the nature of the topics that we deal with.

klleboe welcome to the forum. There is a wealth of expertise and experience here who will be glad to assist. I think this is heart-breaking for all of us to hear and we wish for a day where all children and youth are safe. I think that the advice to consult with your attorney on the specifics of your case is wise. Also, if you have not already, consider securing the assistance of a counselor or other helping professional not only for your son but also for your family. This is a tough road to walk alone.

(1) News reports of at least five dioceses distancing themselves from Scouting. The ones Cynical mentioned plus New Orleans and Portland on the upper West Coast. (2) Local rumblings among the Roman Catholic units (3) Roman Catholic committee and UMC ad hoc are obviously in close communication and coordination. Would not be surprised to see the RC group take a very similar direction A lot of moving parts ...

I think the ad hoc committee believed a month ago that there would be a firm decision or direction established by September 20. As was evident from comments made yesterday, that has not happened yet. At least to the point of a public announcement. They are under a lot of pressure from area conferences and local congregations for the committee to provide an update as well as a clear direction forward. Many local congregations have recently been advised to consult with an attorney regarding chartering. And many local congregations are not waiting and are taking their own steps even if they are not under the threat of a claim. The two nearest neighboring UMC's to us informed their units in the past couple of weeks that they are discontinuing all forms of association including even a facility use agreement. In some cases immediately. This creates a real problem for youth who may be working toward the rank of Eagle. Alternative CO's in our area are not standing in line to sponsor a unit. There are lots of signs that the units sponsored by Roman Catholic units may be next up.

Just came from a UMC leadership meeting. Several of us have alerts set if there is news this evening. Our suspicion is that it has been a late evening in Nashville trying to work out final details for tomorrow's hearing. I think that the intent had been to make a public statement this evening. Given the late hour, our first news from the UMC ad hoc committee may come at tomorrow's hearing followed by a public statement or an update of some sort. Still waiting to see if the Batphone rings tonight.