gpurlee

To my knowledge. the FAQ's that would answer this specific question have not yet been released. However, in the best of UMC tradition, I would guess that the final decision will rest with the individual congregation. The local administrative board or another governing body will likely make this decision ultimately. While the task force is clearly recommending an affiliation agreement at this time, it is likely that there will be four possible options available to local congregations: (1) Drop involvement with Scouting totally. To my knowledge, no official national UMC body has recommended this. However, some local congregations have already made this decision believing it to be in their best interest. (2) Continue with a traditional charter agreement. (3) Serve as a landlord through a facility use agreement while another organization serves as the chartered partner. (4) Move to an affiliate agreement in which the local council "owns" the units, but the UMC congregation provides support which may include space use. However, the local council will have to agree to accept this responsibility. A (very) few councils have already voiced their reluctance apparently. Most councils appear to be awaiting more information and guidance before publicly stating a position.

This has been a very difficult and painful process for the United Methodist Church which has more than one hundred years of history with Scouting. Many of the current UMC leaders have been part of the Scouting program as youth and/or leaders. There is a real desire to continue to support Scouting among much of the UMC leadership. At the same time, the UMC leadership is acutely aware that it potentially could face millions of dollars in legal costs with over 3,500 claims linked to UMC congregations. The legal cost of defending a single claim is estimated to be well into six figures. There have been questions throughout this bankruptcy process raised about whether the BSA insurance is sufficient to provide adequate coverage for the chartered partners. This revelation in court documents was very unsettling at the very least to churches who believed they had been promised insurance coverage would not be an issue. There is no certainty that the UMC and other chartered partners will be approved as covered third parties in a settlement agreement. This occurs at a time when the UMC church is facing the beginnings of an internal split and has significant financial issues outside of Scouting. A team of more than a dozen top UMC leaders and legal counsel have worked to seek a positive solution for more than two years. I personally know some of this team and know that they have worked diligently to both continue a Scouting relationship and to protect the interests of the church. This has been an incredibly difficult balance. Their conclusion is that there is significant potential risk in serving as a chartered partner. It goes beyond just insurance issues but also was shaped by the recognition that many congregations simply do not have the people resources to provide the level of support and supervision that is required. The affiliate agreement was crafted as a means to continue a relationship with Scouting. Ultimately the final decisions will likely rest with the local congregations and the local councils. Even though our own unit with its 111-year tenure at the same UMC congregation faces an unknown future, I applaud the UMC for working to continue support Scouting at a time when other major organizations have chosen to walk away totally.

You raise excellent points. I think that the frustration for the chartered organizations that have been named in lawsuits for incidents that occurred thirty, forty or more years ago, is that there is no corporate memory that remains of that time period. Key organizational persons have died. Any records, if they even existed, were purged years if not decades ago. First of all, the vast majority of the chartered organizations simply did not have the understanding or expectation that they could be held legally accountable for actions which occurred in a Scout unit. Most believed they were simply providing meeting space as a benevolent landlord. There was no need to keep records in that case. Second, even if a chartering organization had seen a need to document their sponsorship and oversight, the accepted corporate standard in most states has been five to ten years after which time records were destroyed. Third, state statue of limitations had provided a shield for chartered organizations. Once the window to file a potential lawsuit had closed, the need to retain any records was diminished greatly. Until fairly recently, very few observers would have predicted that statue of limitations would have been altered to provide "a look backwards." Finally, until fairly recently, lawsuits against chartered organizations for alleged incidents were very unusual. When they occurred, the BSA provided legal consultation and insurance coverage that was sufficient to protect the organization from financial loss, at least. Chartered organizations had no reason to fear that they might be "on their own". And then the world changed ...

You make several interesting points: Traditionally, we know from observation that the majority of chartered organizations have acted more in the role of a benevolent landlord rather than treating their Scouting organization as a true ministry or part of their organization. A meeting place, equipment storage and perhaps a Scout Sunday program or chili supper fundraiser have been the extent of their involvement. This has been common practice for decades. You are correct that court interpretations of the charter agreements have shocked some chartered organizations into realizing the long term implications of the documents that they signed perhaps decades ago. You are also right on point when you state that chartered organizations have the legal and moral responsibility to fulfill that agreement of oversight, support and accountability. However, the reality for many chartered organizations is that they lack the ability and/or willingness to provide the level of on-going oversight that is needed. This includes the selection (interviewing, reference checks?), approval, ensuring completion of training as well as on-going oversight of program and financial operations. And ideally all of this process should be documented and preserved. How many chartered organizations that have been named in the bankruptcy for alleged incidents occurring thirty or forty years ago wish today that they had maintained and retained some sort of documentation that might provide protection for them? If a chartered organization is going to maintain oversight and accountability, they must have the leadership capable, willing and who have the time to do so. My experience is that many of the chartered organizations today have difficulty in coming up with a capable and willing slate of leaders to even operate their own organization as their membership shrinks. I am not sure what the long term solution is. The professionals within our local council have stated that they do not have the manpower, resources or desire to oversee the local units under a meeting space only agreement model. And the reality is that this model would shift the liability almost totally to the council level. Lots of questions remain to be answered even if a bankruptcy settlement is reached.

Welcome to Scouter.com. Hope you are finding Woodbadge to be both informative and fun. Good luck with your troop.

Our council covers multiple states. It is interesting that the Catholic dioceses in some states have ceased to charter Scouting units but not in other states. It is also clear that at the national level the UMC is seeking to continue a relationship with the BSA. Assuming that the proposed settlement is approved, it appears that there may be a variety of options open to local congregations that wish to continue some level of involvement with the BSA. It may be a traditional chartering model or more of a "landlord" relationship that limits CO liability. Our own UMC sponsored units are in a waiting mode also. However, several of our area UMC's have chosen not to wait and have severed all relationships with BSA programs. The level of potential liability as well as active oversight is more than they wanted to assume. Some of these relationships had endured for decades ... until now. One factor that stands out to me is that this is not just an issue that promised insurance coverage assurances only will solve. It is the realization that a chartered partner relationship involves a lot of time and persons willing to very actively serve as the chartered organization representative(s). There is a LOT of required liability and accountability. For many of the aging churches, it is a struggle to even fill critical church board positions with capable persons. The demands of sponsorship is more than they can meet.

Interesting analogy. As a private pilot, I have seen first hand the commitment to improving aviation safety. The flying public today is safer now than it has ever been due to this emphasis on safety and prevention. An important part of this is the National Transportation Safety Board which is an independent, governmental body charged with investigating incidents and making recommendations to prevent future incidents. They are very skilled and have broad investigative powers. While they work with airlines, pilot associations and manufacturers, they are independent and their findings carry great weight. Their recommendations have resulted in major improvements in aviation safety. If we are serious about youth safety and protection and believe there is a significant problem, then perhaps we need the development of an NTSB style entity that is not beholden to any organization but whose authority, credibility and oversight can lead to the continuous improvement that MattR suggests.

Welcome to the forum Anj

I have served as the council historian for many years and searched through my materials from that time period. No charter agreement found but the thing that stuck me was the new unit organizational materials provided by the council. There was essentially no training material that covered chartered organization duties, responsibility or accountability. There were no references to youth protection which is not surprising since it was the late 1980's before the BSA rolled out its youth protection program. I think that it is fair to say, based on what I could find from that time period, that many chartered organizations probably did not recognize the full scope of their responsibilities ... or potential liability.

You raise a good question. Within our council there recently was a multi million dollar settlement involving a police exploring program. Three officers charged for offenses involving both male and female explorers. Knowing there was a decades long problem with abuse within these programs, one wonders why oversight was not stronger and protection policies not enforced.

Our area numbers are definitely down also. Last weekend's Klondike Derby probably had a third of the number of participants of previous winter events. In fairness, we were still recovering from the ice storm. More telling is that two years ago, Cub recruitment fell by 90 percent. While there was some increase this past fall, it was nowhere near the pace of previous years pre-pandemic. Most of our Cub packs are currently around third of their previous membership. The "feeder system" going into troops has been devastated in our area. Even more so, the number of adults who normally would cross over with their child has been significantly reduced. This decline will likely affect the troops for sometime to come. The council seems reluctant to attempt a strong public recruitment effort until the bankruptcy issues are resolved. We have also had a number of units lose their chartered organizations in the past few months. Even when they have been able to find a new chartered organization, it has often meant a loss of momentum and stability for the unit. I am concerned that the uncertainty about the future of the BSA is like the dementors in Harry Potter. It is sucking the energy out of the movement. At the same time, I am impressed by the efforts that I see coming from the Crossroads Council (Indianapolis). They are proceeding with the launch of a strong marketing plan and have made some impressive staff hires of very experienced marketing professionals. Their recruitment numbers have also been impressive. Strong local leadership and direction will be essential if the BSA will have a positive future.

Quick update our temps have unexpectedly held around 32 degrees which has kept the worst of the storm at bay in many areas. Power outages are MUCH less than had been previously feared. Worst is yet to come as temperatures will drop as night approaches . Lots of accidents and slide offs but 95 percent of drivers are off the roads. More sleet than ice at the moment in the area which means powerlines and trees have been less impacted. Not good but could be much worse ... at the moment with several more hours of precipitation ahead of us.

One of the things I have always loved about Scouting is the lifelong skill and knowledge development it can provide. I have always believed that the emergency preparedness merit badge is one of the most valuable and useful badges that the BSA offers.. Right now as I type this our community is in a declared state of emergency and under an ice storm warning. The governor is on TV with a live update. Four hundred thousand outages reported in the region. It is raining hard here at our house with temperatures holding at 33 degrees. One degree can make a huge difference. But temperatures will drop this afternoon. And the forecast is for temperatures to approach zero by tomorrow evening. What freezes will be here for a while. If there is any good news, this system has unexpectedly slowed enough that ice accumulation is anticipated to be "only" a half inch as contrasted with the one inch plus forecast earlier this week. I truly appreciate the first responders. Hundreds of utility trucks from throughout the Midwest and South are prepositioned in parking lots through the region. The powerlines have begun to "gallop" which is an incredible and frightening event to watch. The lines get a coating of ice. It is windy here. The lines begin to "dance' wildly out of control until they snap. My son is a police officer. He, his partners (among them several Eagle Scouts), the firefighters, EMS, highway workers will all have a rough few days. Bless and protect them. They have families who are anxious to have them return safely. I appreciate the grocery store workers (who were already short handed) where lines snaked throughout the store. The hardware store whose huge propane refill tank is now empty and who rushed to get essentials into the community. The good news is we had three good days to prepare for this storm. I appreciate the medical workers who are spending the night at the hospital away from families to ensure there is emergency care. My daughter in law works at a vet hospital. Staff are preparing for a 24 hour plus shift. My son in law is preparing to stay as long as needed at the long term care facility for persons with severe disabilities. My eighteen year old grandson who has spent the past three days with me fueling, preparing and testing chainsaws, generators, securing supplies, getting ready to be of assistance to our community. Lots of unsung heroes in my book. The media gets a lot of knocks. But our local media have done a tremendous job communicating essential information and updates. Keeping an eye on our camp thirty miles to the north. Temps there are now 26 degrees. Last big ice storm brought down hundreds of limbs and trees. Took years to clean up. We are watching it unfold on our camera system. So far, so good. Still have electricity. And for the most part, we are getting sleet not freezing rain. Not good but a much better weather event in terms of tree damage and powerlines. Be prepared. That is one of the best gifts that we can give our Scouts.

Several years ago, an adjacent rural council raised the funds to construct a beautiful, large Scout center at its primary camp that was the envy of the area. It featured a nice Scout shop, conference and training rooms and and offices. Beautiful setting. However, it was an hour or more away from the major population centers, Few volunteers wanted to make the drive there for meetings or supplies. Its remote location meant that it was invisible to most of the community. A council merger with a shift of primary camps was the final blow. Within a fairly short period of time, it was abandoned and bulldozed due to a lack of utilization and the cost of upkeep.

The final decisions rest with the local councils. However, there is precedent to a national BSA mandate. In the early 1990's national established a series of sixteen benchmarks that local councils had to achieve in order to receive a charter. If I recall (and it has been a while) these included (1) the number of eligible youth within the council geographic area, (2) percentage of eligible youth enrolled, (3) a positive operating balance over a period of time, (4) establishment of a significant endowment, (5) outside annual audit and a (6) a minimum financial reserve among others. There were also some council program metrics including youth retention, summer camp participation and others. Our little six county rural council did not meet enough of the metrics to receive a charter. We were given the opportunity to determine how to best "bigger" ourselves however. We "interviewed" three neighboring councils before selecting one to begin merger discussions. These were amiable discussions with an appreciation for the history and traditions of each council. And with the advantage of three decades of hindsight now, it was the best thing that could happen to our little council.

This will be one of the major challenges for the BSA as it moves past the bankruptcy. Our council, for example, had had potential merger discussions with three other smaller neighboring councils even before the national bankruptcy filing and the pandemic. Since that time, the situation has grown much more concerning with a membership decline of over fifty percent. In addition, revenue streams including product sales, activity income and camp fees have all taken a significant hit. In our area, we also have an abundance of full featured camps within a two to three hour drive. At least a dozen. Many of these are the result of decades of efforts by local volunteers and professionals and have a rich heritage of service to the community. This number does not include additional "weekend only" camping properties. Unfortunately, years of membership decline coupled with the impact of the pandemic makes it very challenging to support and justify continuing all of these camps. But no council wants to give up "our camp". I suspect that many of these decisions have been placed on pause until there is more clarity around the impact of the bankruptcy upon individual councils. Regardless, it is difficult to see how the BSA can continue with the current number of small councils. And this will also change the nature of councils as we shift from locally controlled, Scouter dominated boards to regional boards comprised of a greater number of large donors and prominent corporate leaders.

This is an important point that has serious implications for the individual Scouter. Insurance provided through the BSA (may) cover the chartered organization. It does not cover the individual Scouter. You are on your own in the event an allegation of abuse is ever made. The costs of legal defense even for a false allegation can be staggering. Scouters need to have a discussion with their personal insurance agent to ensure that they are adequately insured. Many Scouters believe as long as they follow all BSA policies and procedures, they will never face the situation where there is an allegation made. And if so, they believe that they personally are protected by BSA legal defense and insurance because "they did all the right things.". Unfortunately, this typically is not the case. Scouters need to understand the potential personal risks and how to best protect themselves and their families. Unfortunately, the BSA historically has done a poor job educating its volunteers on the importance of this.

Welcome to the forum Wyobkr.

Is it time for the BSA to change its top leadership model? For decades, the vast majority of council Scout executives have been selected from a system that works by promotion from within the BSA ranks. You work your way from district executive, perhaps to a field executive or specialty position such as development. You attend a variety of Scouting specific training courses over the years Eventually you can be placed on a list for consideration as a Scout Executive at a council or national position if you meet the approval of your supervisor. “Putting your time in” has been considered to be essential. The thinking was that through these experiences you gain the expertise necessary to lead a Scouting organization However, the BSA has increasingly become an outlier among not-for-profits in the use of this model. Other national not-for-profits such as Goodwill, Easter Seals and Volunteers of America have long since moved toward a model where the local (or national) executive board can select any individual that they believe is best suited for the position of chief executive. This person may have come from another not-for-profit or the business community. The candidate may bring specific skills such as fundraising or crisis management that is needed at that particular time by the organization. They may have extensive community knowledge and an invaluable network already established that would typically take years to develop. They have found that the personal characteristics, experience and leadership skills of the individual are more important than years of prior history within the organization. The organizational history and knowledge needed by the top leader can be gained in a variety of other ways. Several other national organizations have leadership academies to provide new chief executives with the organizational specific knowledge and skills needed. The emphasis is on finding the best qualified individual to lead the organization. The local executive board is not limited to a small list of prescreened, nationally approved candidates. Why make the shift in selecting top executives? There are a variety of reasons. A few of them include: (1) ) To ensure that there is a constant infusion of new ideas and skills into the organization from outside the organization. (2) To avoid the development of a “good boy” network where agreement is valued and challenges to established norm is discouraged. An organization that requires working your way up a career ladder and not “shaking the boat” can be at a marked disadvantage in preventing organizational crises where challenging the norms and speaking out was needed. (3) To avoid the development of organizational blind spots. (4) It can also fast track the hiring of highly qualified individuals including individuals who are female or minority group members who otherwise might have to spend years working their way up within the organization. When you look at some of the crises that the BSA is facing today, one may wonder if some of these were related to institutional structure and rigidity. Did this lead to its failure to identify and its willingness to acknowledge serious internal problems? Has the current leadership model worked well in organizational growth, health and avoiding crisis? Or is it time for the BSA and its boards to consider a new model of executive selection?

Willkommen im das Forum. Ein guter Freund, Kasimir, von Reiden, ist ein Schweizer Pfadi.

Just so you know it, we are probably on the verge of starting a new thread on cat herding. It is amazing how these threads take the strangest turns. But, I will leave that decision to the discretion of one of my fellow moderators. Nevertheless, I will share our cat herding story. This past summer we decided to "adopt" two outdoor cats from the local Humane Society for the storage barn at our troop camp. Win-win situation was the plan. Save the lives of the cats and encourage the rodents to move out of the barn. It seemed like a really good idea and very Scout-like. Perhaps we went a little overboard? Installed automatic cat feeders, little heated cat huts, heated water bowls. Even cat cams on which online visitors could enjoy the antics of the cats. Understand, our camp is located in "the middle of nowhere." Well nevertheless, soon the cats found friends. Other cats mysteriously appeared out of the woods. Perhaps enroute from nowhere to anywhere. Then came the raccoons who discovered they had a truly great deal. Our efforts to scare them away with loudspeakers and remote controlled floodlights just amused them. They enjoyed the company of the cats and would sit together and pass the time of the day (usually night). They even seemed to enjoy my company and would sit and stare when I entered the barn. Much nicer than the unappreciative cats, who simply ran away. But we realized that this probably was not a good thing since raccoons can carry disease, fleas and eat A LOT of food. Any way we really did not want to encourage a family of little raccoons to take up permanent residence. Plus they make amazingly big poops. Much to my total shock, my peace-loving, animal caring wife suggested that I simply take the Glock up to the barn and get rid of them. I could not believe that those words came out of her mouth (and still remind her of that to this day). No way! A Scout is Kind. This was a now game of chess, of strategy, and you don't shoot your opponent (typically). After at least a month of efforts, we finally got rid of the raccoons when we managed to raccoon proof the feeding table, MUCH harder than you would think and we held regular strategy meetings to plan our countermoves. But we were determined that no raccoon was going to outsmart us and it had become our mission in life. But that is another story for a different time. Plus I told the raccoons that I would sit out a bag of corn on the opposite side of the camp for them on a regular basis if they would just leave peacefully. I have kept my end of the bargain and the corn disappears, so all are happy at the moment. Except for the cats who continue to wait expectedly to see who will slip under the sliding door next. So, cat herding is certainly not for the faint of heart or weak-willed.

I suspect that we will continue to see more and more BSA policies driven by legal considerations and organizational protection. This will be one of the consequences of tens of thousands of abuse claims and well over a billion dollars in costs. If nothing else, the insurance companies are likely to mandate very stringent rules. The enforcement, accountability and much of the liability will rest squarely at the unit level and with chartered partners, assuming that model survives. And what would appear to have been common sense in the past, is likely to take a back seat in the future to very prescriptive guidelines and requirements approved by legal consultants. A safer program? Time will tell. A more restrictive and limited program? Definitely.

A few months ago, one of the posters here offered some great advice I thought. Type what you intend to say. Set it aside for a few minutes and look at it again before you press "post". Does it really say what I intend for it to say? Does it come across as respectful to the readers? We are in a challenging and painful environment. For some of the posters here, Scouting represents the start of a lifelong nightmare which has been brought once again to the surface. For others, Scouting has been a wonderful, life changing experience full of friendships and good memories. And an important part of their life feels under attack. Both experiences and perspectives are valid for the individuals involved. One of the values of this forum is to bring together and to share very diverse experiences. Even if my experience is very different from yours, we can recognize and acknowledge that another's experience is valid and important to them. And that we can learn from one another. And perhaps help someone else on their journey.

A lot of the mainline Churches have sponsored Scouting for decades. As you note, many of them including our sponsor are contending with years of declining membership and face their own set of threats and challenges. We are hopeful that our 111 year relationship will survive this period. Our pastors over many years have noted that for many residents in our community, their association with and knowledge of our church came from their involvement in our Scouting programs. Nevertheless, there is a high level of fear and trepidation among the area churches that Scouting today carries too high of a risk and the BSA is no longer a trustworthy partner. I have been saddened by the significant loss of chartered organizations in our region in the past six months. Hopefully, your program will survive and continue to serve the youth of your community assuming that the BSA survives.

United Methodist congregations will be encouraged to vote "no" to the proposed BSA restructuring plan. Reasons stated include inadequate compensation for the survivors of abuse and concerns that issues surrounding church liability have not been adequately addressed. UMC congregations who have previously submitted claims will be able to cast a single individual vote per congregation. Many conferences are conducting zoom meetings involving these congregations this weekend to review the proposal as well as the national ad hoc committee recommendations in order to submit the votes before the upcoming deadline. UMC churches who sponsor or have sponsored Scouting units were previously strongly encouraged to submit "protective" claims to the bankruptcy court to ensure that their interests would be protected.. These claims were summitted before the claim submission deadline ended last year. Mediations between the UMC and other chartered organizations with the BSA have been described as difficult and challenging by insiders. The UMC previously filed paperwork with the court requesting to provide expert testimony challenging the BSA restructuring plan and its assumptions. The UMC is the largest remaining national charter organization but many local congregations have moved recently to either totally drop the BSA program or to move to a facility use agreement. The local council would hold the charter in that instance. However, some local councils have balked at the facility use agreements stating that they do not have the staff resources to adequately oversee units. To read more: https://um-insight.net/in-the-church/local-church/united-methodists-poised-to-reject-boy-scouts-bankruptcy-pl/?fbclid=IwAR3u4MdgyA75jJxrS8Ckwb0UDhKyz00v7gjTBXPJvRAlB71oQdTpBUnvGds