Mrjeff

Well, after a career in the Marines as an MP, I assure you that I have met some drunken sailors. I can't figure out exactly what's going on. According to the announcement BSA does not own the local councils. So......I guess that means the council charges certain fees to the individual (which have doubled) so they can pay a fee to the BSA so that the individual can use a brand and four campgrounds for which a fee is paid. Building is going strong at the Summit with a massive new learning center including classrooms, a dining facility, lodging, and a 300 seat auditorium. There are a few 5 star apartments near a building with glass walls that can be covered with a hydraulic awning, and a presidential helicopter pad just in case a president wants to come there. When asked how it is being paid for the standard answer seems to be "with cash"...............hmmmmmmm....................that's a lot of food for thought.

Hmmmmmm.......... the Summit has a presidential help pad "in case a president wants to visit"; still building huge structures with theater seating, a dining facility and lodging, but the BSA has declared bankruptcy. The announcement specifically denied that the BSA owns the individual councils. Councils pay a required fee for each member and the national beurcraticy dictates what local regions, sections, and councils need to do. But.........BSA does not, in any shape or form, own the local council. This is very interesting to me.

I certenly wish no Ill will on our former BSA CEO, and pray for his complete recovery. I also question the necessity of having such a huge machine devouring tangible resources. A lot of very unpopular decisions were made that has had a negative impact on those individuals who mattered the most, the boys they were supposed to support. As a result many dedicated members, both youth and adult, have elected to leave. As a result the machine has less to do and should be reduced in order to survive the loss of the product demand. Even Baden Powell made the statement that the scouts should never become a professional organization because it will reduce the idea of civic mindedness among the volunteers. I have a slightly different list of necessary professionals that include council and district executives, camp rangers, and administrative assistants. I would also suggest that those professionals be allowed to focus on service to its members and not be forced to concentrate on growth. If the BSA had a good product, to sell, people would buy it and growth would be automatic. The focus and measure of success is now based on numbers and statistics and the idea of fun, fellowship, and personal growth has been burried by the numbers. I wish the new CEO well and I really hope that he will be the guiding light on these stormy seas.

Yea, but apparently people are still reading it.

Imagine that, when I was talking to the GM he fell back on the problems with the organization. My reply was, "Should the Catholic church be disbanded, or perhaps every church that has had similar problems be disbanded?" He really didn't have a response and it left him speechless. Hmmmmm..........a speechless radio guy...........you dont see that everyday...

I believe that at one time the Boy Scouts was a group of boys and men who worked together to teach and demonstrate all of the points of the scout oath and law. The men showed the boys how to be scouts in the woods, at home and school, at camp, and at church. The Boy Scouts was a private orgination that required a person to fill out an application, pay a fee, and abide by their rules. If you chose not to do these things you chose not to belong. Somehow these things changed and rather then stand on the principles agreed to by the members the rules were changed and many members decided that rather then conform to the new rules they would walk away, and others, who were not members, did not like the changes and just decided not to participate. Scouting is in danger and unless there in not a reorganized, revamped, and begin to follow the dictates of the Scout Oath and Law, Boy Scouting will fade away. Sadly, it may be, that our modern society that the Boy Scouts of America has lost its relevance in the light of liberal and permissive views.

I was recently listening to a Christian radio program and the guest speaker made the comment that he wished the Boy Scouts of America would be disbanded and go away. I took offence to this comment and called the GM of that station to give him my point of view. I also told him that there are plenty of people in the scouts that are still trying to "do the right thing" and provide a positive experience for young people. Unfortunately the GM agreed with the speaker which demonstrates a conservative and accepted attitude that the Boy Scouts no longer provides a wholesome and valuable program.

P.S. I apologize for appearing negative about the OA. I think it is a grand group of young people, and our lodge is administered and run by our Lodge Chief, and his LEC (Lodge Executive Committee). Nothing, and I mean nothing, effecting the lodge gets by without the Chief's blessing. The hardest part of being the Lodge Advisor is making sure this happens without well intentioned adult interference. By this time almost everyone realises that this is the way things are and my common response is "that's a good idea and I'll let the Chief know and he can bring it to the LEC." Again, I focus on our lodge and what they want to do, and I am more concerned about our guys and less about section, region, or national wants. I want our members to enjoy their activities and be proud of their membership.

I I certenly agree with what you have said. I recently attended the "National OA Webinar" and when one of the national officers said that the members should engage the new members after the ordeal and "WE HAVE A SCRIPT TO USE" I tuned it out. For christmas sake, they actually developed a SCRIPT to use when someone walks up to somebody to say hi!!!! I am a current lodge advisor and the more "National" jambs down my throat or tyres to jamb down my throat, the more resistant I become. They have forbidden the use of regalia for crossover ceremonies because "a Native american was offended". Who was this individual, where was he from, and what offended him/her? Those questions are never answered. Soooooo, fine we'll take of the bonnets, put on coon skin caps and conduct the ceremony as mountain men, and leave the OA out of it. They try to regulate ceremonies, regalia, verbiage, site set up and anything else that the lodge does. Then they spout rhetoric about how they support the lodges. Now, each section will be required to put on a 6 hour block of training for every elected officer, every year. The even want to tell us what we can have on our patches. I can't help but wonder what training, education, and life experiences this very small group of rule makers have that allows them to set regulations for young folks all over the country. The BSA and the OA have become very corporate and number orientated and have successfully taken a lot of the fun out of scouting. On top of that, they have greatly increased the registration fees, and they want me to sign a release so they, whoever that is, can have access to all of my personnel information anytime they want to check, and then release that information whenever they want. My attorney advised me not to sign that. If the whole bag of worms were to be dumped out I truly think that the Boy Scouts of America relinquished its principles, morals, and ethics in exchange for political correctness. These recent unpopular decisions made by "them" has caused a downward spiral that may not be recovered. I still love scouting, but I focus on our lodge and council and will support "my kids" to the best of my ability. Perhaps the actual Lodge Advisors and Lodge Chiefs should have a national conference without any outside interference. I just bet we could fix some things and put some fun back into scouting.

Wow, wow, wow, another price increase. I think it's pretty obvious that the BSA is not doing very well as an orgination managed by a central entity. It would appear that many many negative influences have risen up and the BSA is having a hard time dealing with them. I see that it has become very corporate and has lost focus on why people join scouting and why they stay around. At this time of the year the big focus is on growth and developing new units. Then popcorn season, .......and the cycle continues. I would suggest that the BSA think about an entirely different approach. Restructure from the top down. Look at the salaries of the senior executive staff, look at property holdings, look at programs that are not universaly productive, and support what they have and not worry so much about what we want to have. Scouting is changing but it just doesn't have "the draw" that it had when I was a boy; my two sons, both Eagles, dont have the interest that I have; and my grandson, who has to finish his eagle project, has even less interest. It may be that, like so many successful business, the BSA has overextended and just can't make the money needed to sustain it's assets. It may be that thay are having trouble with competing markets. It may be that they underestimated the impact of recent, controversial decisions. It may be that they overpriced themselves to the point that people dont think the product is worth the price anymore. Or, sadly it may be that the business of scouting, along with its values, standards, activities, adventure, oppertunities, and traditions, has simply run it's course like so many extinct organizations. (Gimbles, Wanamakers, JC Penny, Woolworths, Packard, Hudson, D.A.R.E., Dacor, U.S. Divers, Bob's Candy, and this list could go on for pages). I really think that people with a better prospective on business then I have, should reevaluate this whole thing from top to bottom, bottom to tob, and every angle, and reorganize the whole thing and try to save what we have.........before the whole show disappears completely.

I spoke with my attorney and he told me that this document is too broad and open ended. I am ok with criminal background checks but this appears to be an agreement allowing the BSA and their employees to look into every aspect and area of my private life (my attorney agrees). I plan to make several pen changes, and have that form notarized before turning it in. I also dont like the idea of them sharing information. I'm a retired Marine and law enforcement officer and held a final top secret security clearance so clearly I have nothing to hide. But I dont think that the BSA should have access to all of my private information.

I first attended WB in 1982, SE-293. I then attended WB for 21st Century, and is was very different from the last course. I have also participated in many courses and they were all a little different. I am going to attend the Summit course in Jan 2020 as a participant and I'm sure that it will be quite different from the first 2 courses that I attended. No matter if you took the Explorer Leader course at Schiff or the newest of the new course at the Summit, they all provide an enjoyable and informative training opportunity.

This is certenly a sensitive situation. Perhaps this sh ould be brought to the attention of the Lodge Advisor who could look into the facts surrounding this induction. Then the Lodge Advisor can pass it on to the Lodge Chief who can present it to the LEC and let them decide. That way Scoutmasters, committees, and unit members who have a specific interest will be removed from any decision that is made. I suggest that whenever there is a conflict involving the OA, the Lodge Chief and his LEC be informed and allowed to take what action deemed appropriate.

I certainly apologize for commenting on an old topic, regardless of relevance. Everyone has opinions on this subject: wearing mentor pins, too many square knots, official hat, socks, belt, and is the neckerchief worn under the collar of is the collar turned under. How many wear official socks, and if not are you in uniform? If it's cold outside and you put on a generic wool hat are you suddenly out of uniform therefore preventing you from giving the scout salute at flag raising? What exactly goes on the back of a merit badge sash? Can you wear your hat inside? Can you wear a sheath knife on your belt? Jeeeeeesssssss....these issues are something that I choose not to occupy my mind. Others can if they choose to do so, but I would respectfully request that you do not attempt to correct those with differing opinions. I will refrain from making any additional comments and I again apologize for dredging up such an old and irrelevant topic.

I dont think this is exactly correct. I was at the National Law Enforcement Conference in Washington DC when Jim Kaminski made the initial announcement concerning Explorers being removed from traditional units and being placed with Learning for Life and it was far more complex than that. Most of us in attendance were not very supportive of this change and the reasons for this change.

I agree that proper uniforming is important but I do not place it high on the list of priorities. I believe that the reason Venture Scouts can choose their own uniform requirements is a direct coorilation with the fact that many young adults don't like the idea of wearing a uniform. I don't like the idea of wearing a scout shirt with jeans, and I don't like generic ball caps with the uniform bug I would rather see the youth then gripe about his Atlanta Braves ball cap. I think it's silly to have a position patch on both sleeves or to have a row of six service star above the pocket. But if someone chooses to do that it is fully and completely their decision and it is neither my responsibility or duty to correct that person. At one time it was appropriate to wear one national and one world jamboree patch above the pocket. Although that has changed some still do it and to me it is of no consequence. If a person wants to wear a mentor pin, eagle parents pin, or 25 square knots it is of no consequence. On one occasion I knew a scouter who wore a Vigil pin on each collar and there are many who wear a legend patch on the back of their OA sash. Beaded OA sashes are prohibited but a lot of people wear them and even Mr. Goodman is seen in pictures wearing a beaded sash. That's not to mention special shoulder loops or awards that are authorized and presented by local councils. To me, in the grand scheme of things it just is no big deal. As far as lessons go, everything that young folks do does not need to be a lesson, some things are just fun. I also feel that adults who are uneducated in the area of psychology, sociology, psychiatry, peer pressure, and all of the outside factors that contribute to a person's individuality should proceed with caution when attempting to teach a lesson on ethics, morality, honesty, and human interaction. I wonder how many volunteer "teachers" are familiar with the basic learning modalities and are skilled in the techniques needed for each of them. But that's another subject. These are my thoughts and opinions on the subject. In short, I choose my battles carefully without losing focus on more critical issues.

Like I clearly stated, I have my own opinion and if its offensive or off-putting to you, I dont care. I made no assumptions about issues like character or values. I did say THAT IF YOU ARE THAT FOCUSED ON THE UNIFORM perhaps you should focus on the person and not his CLOTHES. I would also suggest that I am very aware of proper uniformity after having spent many years in the United States Marine Corps, and as a senior law enforcement. Covers or hats were mandatory regardless of the emergence of a situation, footwear and undergarments were regulated. I grew up in a scouting world where socks and LEATHER SHOES WERE REQUIRED, as were necherchief and slide. During my first Wood Badge course your shirt was devoid of insignia, shorts and knee socks were required and a detailed uniform inspection was conducted every morning. As far as I can tell this rigidity had little or no effect on my value, character, work ethic, or overall view of humanity. I heard a Wood Badge scoutmaster make the statement that a hand made woggle is only for use by Wooc Badge participants; and I heard an adult tell a scout that they can't wear a handmade woggle as it is only for use by Wood Badgers. Well when I had to wear shorts and knee socks it was clearly explained that everything we did, including wiggles was to be applied to our units. Somewhere the entire focused has shifted from having a grand time to regulation, oversize, teaching lifes lessons, and control. Even the mission statement fails to mention "fun". Perhaps that is why our membership is down and young people would rather do something else. My training, education, and experience has led me to believe that "if it ain't fun, the kids wont do it". So, continue to focuse on the clothes and lesson teaching if you want to; but I will continue to focus on the youth and their desire to have good clean fun. As I previously stated, THIS IS MY OPINION AND NO AMOUNT OF ELOQUENT DIALOGUE IS GOING TO CHANGE IT. Your opinion is important even if I dont agree with it and I would respectfully suggest that you do what you do, and mind your own opinion without attempting to change the important opinions of others. Unit leaders are responsible for the appearance of their unit and adults are responsible for their own appearance. And since I agree that there are no real uniform or patch police no one has the responsibility of correcting or criticizing another's choice in what they put on their shirt. If someone feels that it is their duty to do so they assume the position of the mythical uniform police.

I dont agree with you. Also, another in service training for those who think that it is their responsiblity to criticize how others wear their uniform. The red jackets are a personal item and can be decorated however the owner desires. So, like I said, my uniform, my money, my choice, so I'll put on it what I want. If you are that stuck on "proper uniforming" I would suggest that you study the rules, look at the pictures in the OFFICIAL publications including BSA catalogs and magazines, look at photos of area, regional, and national volunteers and ask yourself if it really is your business to correct, criticize, or comment on another's uniform. I couldn't care any less about somebody's uniform because I'm just glad to see them. And if this disappoints you or keeps you up at night I suggest you add some adventure to your life, loosen up, and enjoy scouting for the fun of scouting.

This is awesome! I guess I'm one of the old farts now. Over the past 40+ years I've received 13 square knots, two Eagle Dad pins, and a partridge in a pear tree. Yes I wear all 13 knots because they outline my scouting adventure that I shared with two daughters and three sons. I proudly display that two of my sons are Eagle Scouts and I will be adding an Eagle Scout grandparent pin as soon as he completes his project. I ain't gotten paid and I bought my own clothes and I really don't give one twitch about what somebody else thinks about how I decorate my clothes. Very very very few wear a complete uniform with everything is perfectly placed. Anyway, that's my view on things and if you agree that's fine and if you don't, you are the one stressing about it, not meeeeee!

Where did the "FUN" go in scouting? Uniforms are important. But they are also EXPENSIVE. The BSA does not issue uniforms like the military. They don't provide a clothing allowance to help defray the cost of uniform maintenance like the military. Thay don't have the authority to sanction people for an improper uniform like the military. And, The BSA does not pay its members to join up, like the military. In my opinion the individual scout is more important then their clothes. I'm always glad to see a member weather or not they look like they are a model for the BSA catalog or if they are wearing Jean's and a t-shirt. I guess my priorities differ from many, but that's how I see things.

I have 13 and I wear all of them on one shirt. These knots signify my journey as a young scout and then through the years as a scouter. My top three are Eagle, Silver Beaver, and the NESA Scoutmester Award of Merit. As a side note, if we took a picture of my nuclear family of 5 there would be 2-four beaders; 1-three bearer, 2-two beaders; 3-Eagle Scouts; 2-Silver Beavers;2-District Awards of Merit; 1-Sea Badger; 3-Explorer Post Presidents; and a Vigil Honor OA member. We also have one almost Eagle Scout. I'm pretty proud of this Scouting Legacy. P.S. : On all of my other shirts I wear 6 knots.

Well, I have a white ghost legend and a 50th anniversary patch. I intend sewing them onto my sash and just haven't gotten around to it yet.

I think that if the insignia guide was carefully read, especially those who are certified patch police officers, it would be discovered that it states that it provides information as to where specific patches may be worn and not what can be placed on your jacket. There are no rules or guidelines as to what can be placed on the jacket, and you can wear whatever you want on your red jacket.

Actually the green jacket was offered during the 1990s but were not very popular. They were pretty heavy and had a BSA logo embroidered on the pocket. When they sold out they were gone forever. The red jacket is a personal item that is not regulated by the BSA. Therefore you can wear any patches you want anywhere you want. Careful research will show that all of the suggestions about patches are just that, suggestions. There are no hard and fast rules about decorating your red jacket. I would suggest carefully checking the BSA uniform regs. So, as long as it is appropriate for scouting activities, sowe away and have fun. Sorry to those who have graduated from the Federal Patch and Insignia Police Academy, but you have no jurisdiction of red (or green) jackets.

This could be resolved by talking to the lodge adviser.