Mrjeff

Open water is a very applicable term. It may be that each charterd organization has to cover the individual unit or perhaps each key leader will have to obtain special liability insurance. If something like this happens I know many leaders will walk away and more charterd organizations will also back away. This will cause the BSA to really shrink. I just hope that we dedicated scouters can figure out how to just survive.

Do you really believe that the BSA will ever even be able to get insurance coverage again? If an insurance carrier is willing to provide insurance do you think that after everything is said and done the BSA could afford insurance. My point is that the national level BSA is being squeezed to death and we will have to work locally if the BSA or the Boy Scouts or Scouting USA or whatever it's going to be called, is going to survive. The Boy Scouts of America is in desperate straits and if the locals dont work to save some piece of it, it's going to die.

Realistically, in my opinion, if scouting is going to survive, there are going to be a lot of changes if we as scouters are willing to work at it. I dread the idea that the whole thing goes down the s%$##er and is gone forever. I envision that scout units will be very autonomous with the main burden being shouldered by local volunteers. Each unit will be governed by the dictates of whatever organization sponsors the unit. The OA will be governed by the youth members of the individual lodge with approval of the advisor and the Council Executive. It may be more difficult finding appropriate leaders for these positions as the qualifications may be more stringent. The only interaction between scouts will be at the district and council level and national, section or regional events will be very few and far between. High adventure will be limited and international events will be attended by more US scouts with the help of the local council. There will be far less oversight so thos volunteer leaders must know how to perform their respective duties and there will be little room for mediocrity. It may even be necessary for experienced scouters to form training teams who are willing to travel and provide the necessary seminars. None of these things will be dependent on professionals and will be largely handled by volunteers. All of this will depend on dedicated volunteers who are willing to help the phoenix rise from the ashes. It wont be easy but it is worth the trouble. My immediate family has 3 generations of Eagle Scouts, 2-four bead Woodbadgers, 1-three bead Woodbadger, 2-two bead Woodbadgers, 2-Explorer Post Captains, 1-Bachler level Commissioner, and One Masters level Commissioner. I am proud of this legacy and pray that others have the experiences and opportunities that we have enjoyed. Things will be different and there will be new challenges, but I know that if we all stand together we can survive. God bless.

Well, to be totaly Frank, if our LEC wants to do crossovers in regalia, I believe that I could figure a way to do it. As it is we are fortunate to have a native American who is in charge of our indian affairs. If someone asks he shows up in his tribal clothing and does a great job. I'm not even going to entertain the idea that some committee has any business telling him what he can do. In fact, whatever he does is right and correct, and not even open to criticism.

The OA is a group of young people, and I dont intend to regurgitate the age thing. This group absolutly and completly belong to its youthful members. Adults guide, advise, and support those young people, and help them facilitate their activities. I "cringe" whenever an adult, especially when that adult is a spectator, criticize the efforts of lodge members. Many, many, many claim that their units are youth run but in reality many, many, many units only do face service to the idea of a youth run program. The OA actually is a youth run program where even the advisors have only a limited influence on decision making. I say that to emphasize that good or not so good ahat they do is done by the kids, with the kids, and for the kids. If someone, especially an adult, that concern may be brought to the attention of the Lodge Advisor who can address the issue with the Lodge Executive Committee who are youth members elected by youth members. The hardest job of being a Lodge Advisor is keeping other adults from influencing the Lodge Executive Committee.

As long as our local Creek approve of the way we portray their history we're just fine. In fact they see it as a way to honor their traditions and culture. The OA is filled with native american symbolism and is based on a native American legend. I dont see how people are offended for someone else. Believe me when I say that the dances are far more then prancing around in regalia. One of our guys is a native American who is proud to wear and display his regalia that represents his tribe. He is our main ceremonialist and focuses on native American affairs. People shouldn't create issues when their are none.

This again brings me to the question about a national committee from Texas, Origon, California, etc know about delivering the scouting program in south/west Georgia. Unapologetically I help the kids do what they want and keep the Supreme Chief of the Fire informed. If he is ok with things, then I am ok with things. As far as using regalia, our local native Americans have an open invitation to attend our lodge events including the ceremonies. That may be contrary to some people but if we have the approval of real native Americans, and are open to any of their suggestions, we're doing fine. Their stamp of approval is all I need to support our Chief and his LEC.

All native american activities have not been removed. There are three options for ceremonies. The guys can wear their uniform with their OA sash; they can wear indian regalia representing the local tribal traditions; or black shirts, pants, and sash. The legend, format, and everything else remains the same. We still use regalia and the members want to keep that tradition. I would encourage you to verify this info by going to the OA website.

Now that's another issue. I again say that the requirements are specific.....we are talking about the basic swim test....nothing more and nothing less. There may. ....never mind, not going there. You do what your conscience dictates......You add what you like, change what you like, or use whatever interpretation you wish. But the simple fact remains that if a kid passes the requirement, it's passed. If the requirements can be passed in a backyard pool, it can be used. How about a six foot deep lap pool thats only 15 feet long? The 5'11 kid could jump in and swim to China but I bet that would start another argument. I am also greatly impressed by the experience and credentials of others, but I am equally qualified to comment on this subject. And the idea of showing up and getting a trophy is repugnant to me. Enough said, by me.

Your expertise and experience are appreciated. However were not talking about the swimming merit badge, lifesaving merit badge, or BSA Lifeguard. We are talking about the basic swim check. Were not talking about middle of the lake swimmers or what someone wants to see. All we're talking about is the basic swim check. And without going around the world all of the opinions, variables, and extra requirements, the simple answer is yes, a backyard pool can be used for swim checks.

Wow....Coast Guard....Guide to Safe Scouting.......accidents...........who's qualified............I think it's an innovative and modern technique to summon help. If you have a flair and need help, use it! That's reality, common sense, and an excellent idea. Instruction on their proper use is also a great idea and may prevent someone from burning themself or shooting their own face off in an emergency.

I have an idea. Someone volunteer to lead a committee to determine if a backyard pool can be used. Then, that person has 45 days to choose their committee members. There must be one member who will research the size of backyard pools; someone must research the shape of backyard pools; someone must research the depth of backyard pools; and someone must research the water temperature of backyard pools. There must also be one person to research the height of those individuals who will be using backyard pools to complete requirements. These members will be given 45 days to collect the required information. At the end of the 45 day research material collection each member will report to the Hershey Hotel in Corpus Christy, Texas in order to evaluate and apply the material. After this occurs the committee will have 30 days to complete a 30 page report outlining their recommendations concerning the use of a backyard swimming pools to complete scouting requirements. This report will then be reviewed and then a decision will be made by someone about swimming in something. By this time winter has set in, all of the backyard swimming pools are frozen and could be used for ice skating but only after someone volunteers to lead a committee to decide if backyard swimming pools could be used for ice skating! That was easy

Wow.....can a backyard pool be used for a swim test...........yes a backyard pool can be used for a swim test.

You are so right my friend, you are so right!

This is just another example of issues, items, restrictions, and additions of specific requirements that are very explicit and are not open to interpretation. Unfortunatly this happens all the time and has been going on for decades.

If I remember correctly the initial question was concerning a kid doing swimming requirements in a backyard pool, and the answer is simple, yes. As far as when alternate requirements may be used, it is not based on numbers, opinions, or even rarity. It is covered in the Advancement Guide, which does an excellent job in explaining the process.

There is a method whereby a youngster can advance even if they are unable to complete a requirement. Simply document the issue and an alternate requirement can be substituted. For example, if someone cannot swim due to a physical or mental challenge, hiking activities may be allowed. I would suggest that you contact your local scout executive for specific details. Best wishes.

Really simple answer to a really simple question............yes.

You take a chill and I dont care what your extensive collection of old books say. I'm telling you that Lekau Lodge #77 did not have any members under the age of 14 years old, at least in the early 70s. Believe it or not, I dont care, it makes no difference to me. But unless you were there ......well nevermind.

Sorry, I ment organization...I've heard of Lodges, chiefs at every level, LEC, and Council of Chiefs but never organization. So if it isn't written down and approved by a national committee, it doesn't exist. That makes just as much sense as saying an age limit didn't exist. I'm tired of discussing a moot issue because there is currently no age limit and I think there should be.

If you wernt there dont make assumptions and I would be cautious these days when stating "they can't do that" because "they" can do whatever they want.

It did exist, and I dont think the OA was ever an agency. No book, paper, note, picture, form, or video ever called the OA an agency so it was never an agency and did not exist.

You can argue the age limit thing all you want, but wether it's in a book, there was an age limit because some of us were subject to it. Weather it was troop imposed, district or council imposed, nationally imposed, or a presidental decree, it doesnt matter because there was an age limit. And this isn't intended to create a discussion on who can do what or what the proverbial "they" can't do.

Thanks, this is the first time that I heard about the idea of "local option" and I think that's a grand idea.

I believe that is the answer. In fact it is happening now. Troops have decided not to worry about the national level views and are doing what they want to do. As long as the leaders, kids, and parents are good with it then it's fine. I just wonder how many troops go on camping trips and invite dads along, registered or not. I wonder how many units plan high adventure activities that dont exactly follow national policies. Has anyone gone to a local gun club and had a shooting event without jumping through BSA hoops? I have always said that people on some national committee have no business trying to dictate how the Scouting program should be delivered in a community they know nothing about. Scouting is not the same everywhere. Scouts in the north east don't do the same things as those in the south west, and that's fine as long as the units are meeting the needs of their community. Who better to make decisions then the dads and parents of the kids involved. I applaud your logic in suggesting a very viable solution to a very convoluted situation.