mrjohns2

Hey, I recall a court case that could shed light on are councils independent or not. I know the Girl Scout model is very different at times, but it is close. About 15 years ago, the GSUSA decided to stop the crazy ad hoc mergers and go from 250 to 110 councils (I don't recall the numbers). So, they announced the plans and started to merge. They had the same reasons as the BSA - lower enrollment, high camp costs, etc. All of their councils rolled over and agreed, except for at least one. They sued and said they were independent. GSUSA lost the court case that ensued and then ended up with 111.

$6000 is not that for sure.

Like the only Jewish kid or the only Black kid in a school, I feel bad that you have to "speak for all who were hurt so badly". I bring this up because I do apricate your engagement and perspective. You could remain silent and save yourself any further pain, but it does help me to think. For me to understand this better, my question on the "rightness" of the $6000 is that it is far from their last $6000. If $6000 was all they could really "afford", then it would be what it would be? But it is clearly not all that they could afford and far from their "last" $6000? Not that any number is right (or wrong) as an amount, but this is wrong because it is like a billionaire making amends and saying "we are even, here is $6000, I'm sorry for what happened, but it is all I can spare"? Again, it clearly isn't all they can afford, nor the right number (no matter what the right number is).

I don't have access, but being business is right. I have heard of hedge funds looking at different cases, such as this one, and then providing the funds to a law firm (making an investment) with the goal being a true ROR. Seems wrong to me.

I don't know if that is true. There was an incident just a few years ago at my old boyhood camp. Based on the court case and articles I read, nothing in YPT would have prevented it (the perpetrator broke YPT). Were the authorities brought in promptly? Yes. Based on what I read, should the BSA pay any money? No. Was it super horrible? Yes. Prevent is hard, promptly and proper response is easy and must be done.

Good discussion. I agree with that 100%. The only issue is, is that how these work? What if they see that as the opening bid and then cut from there?

I don't know enough about about these things work. Was this supposed to be the last, best, and final offer? Or an opening bid? I wouldn't mind if they sold off Northern Tier, Sea Base, cancelled explorers, cancelled sea scouts, cancelled venturing, lost all of the endowments, sold everything they mentioned in the proposal, moved the headquarters to the Summit or Philmont, sold the headquarters. Made every council pay a proportional amount to their claim number and or assets. Even then, though, it might not be enough.

I'm don't think $6000 is the right number. Let's say the right number is $1,00,000. What if the BSA doesn't have that? What if they only have $50,000 per legitimate claim?

I don't believe everyone. I also don't believe the BSA was negligent in all of the legitimate cases. I also believe that the BSA might not have the funds or assets to provide adequate compensation. Isn't that why we are in court? To determine who is due what and what BSA can provide?

Define richer? There are plenty of National Parks and National Forests with backcountry backpacking. For example, Glacier National Park. To me HA would be simple to replace compared to a Jamboree. One can do plenty of HA on their own, you just need to want to. Again, if you are looking for unspoiled backcountry, our country has plenty. If you are looking for an all day hike with an evening of mine exploration or logging camp experience, no, not really available. Then again, that isn't what I am looking for in a HA trip. I am looking for hiking in an unspoiled wilderness where you encounter no one.

I don’t know what you are talking about. Growing up, we were a very middle class troop. No trailer, lower middle class Chicago suburb. We drove to the boundary waters. We packed our own food; no backpacking food, too expensive. We rented some of the waterproof bags, but the rest we lined with garbage bags. We did a 12 day canoe trip for about the cost of summer camp. This was just in the notational forest or what ever public lands. The more I hear about the evening program at Phimont, I’m confused. I thought it was wilderness - not some re-enactment dress up program.

My original point is that the BSA argument is that councils are franchises. What they call a charter is a franchise agreement. I could make some arguments the other way, but that is their argument.

It is my understanding that is true for any franchise system. McDonalds can come and shut you down at will.

Very accurate. I was friends with someone for a long time before I heard a peep about their abuse. And even then, it was just a peep. No details.

I don't think this current DB is quite ready for primetime.

When I was a youth serving on the Vigil nomination committee, ours did as well. It is a huge service to others to serve the Scouts year after year at camp.

I don't think that it is that clear cut. That is what makes the whole situation so hard. In some cases, yes BSA was a tangential victim. In others, it was an enabler.

I would add e) general disgust at the BSA for being "too conservative" (not allowing in gay leaders/scouts for so many years, belief in god requirement, connection to LDS, not allowing girls in for so long, perception of connections to the military, headquartered in conservative Texas, and old fashioned/outdated values). Coming from more liberal circles, this is the perspective. It is so hard now that both "sides" are not happy with the BSA.

I am ok about no tenting with parents. There are issues other than just abuse by parents. Scouts and adults are supposed to tent in separate areas of camp. If the scouts and parents are sharing tents, this can't happen. One of the reasons for this is people are opening and closing tent flaps, changing in tents, etc. It just makes good sense.

You asked how we thought they should get paid. I said they should get paid based on the work executed vs. a percentage of settlement.

I would rather pay T&M, but then maybe people aren't going to do a good job of managing their time? They should be paid an amount that compensates them for their time at the going $/hr rate. It should not be a windfall. Just because the defendant has more money, doesn't mean the lawyers should make more money. Now if the case took tons of resources (and thus time), maybe they should get more than 33%, but the complexity and resources needed for the case should dictate that. Not a percentage.

Other than loss of membership and loss of donations, is there a reason why they will run out of money?

They didn't ask me, but I wished they would have gone back to the short lived "Scout BSA" strip from the '70s. Change Scout to Scouts, but keep it small and tidy.

In Northeast Wisconsin, we need a heavy coat a lot. I wouldn't mind a Filson, but the price holds me back. They are made in Seattle, which is neat. They are guaranteed: We guarantee every item made by Filson. No more, no less. We believe in our products and stand by the materials, quality, and workmanship for the lifetime of the product. The product lifetime specifically refers to the time at which, through normal use, the product can no longer function in its intended purpose.

This Filson one? I have been thinking of getting a wool coat and sewing the BSA universal jacket emblem on it. The red wool jack shirts don't have hand pockets, so they are pretty non-functional to me. Filson - Mackinaw Wool Cruiser (bemidjiwoolenmills.com)