yknot

Here's something that would be really useful as we do post mortems on our current national experience: https://www.cdc.gov/onehealth/index.html This initiative is at least ten years old and apart from all the practical ramp up capabilities we need in order to address possible pandemics, it also would create greater common sense surveillance and comparative medicine measures to put in place to help prevent the next zoonotic breakout. At the most basic level, it would also help educate people about every day risks from many poorly understood zoonotic diseases like rabies or tick borne infections. We often rely on advice from the human medical establishment and pediatricians but the reality is that they are flying blind and the real experts are in the veterinary medical field and there is no good mechanism to share information. It is very frustrating to me that as a outdoors oriented (supposedly) organization BSA has practically nil useful information regarding rabies and tick or other vector borne diseases. We should have a compendium of information and resources available. The idea that we send kids out on wilderness survival outings at the height of tick season -- asking kids to make shelters out of leaf litter and other woodland detritus where ticks love to live -- is mind boggling to me. That should be a cold season activity only.

Eagle 1993, that's not what Dr. Fauci said. He said he is hopeful schools can reopen in the fall but I think was pretty clear that summer camps are in question and would depend on how things unfold. The Harvard article is 10 days old and is already out of date. Some kind of staged return to a new normal will need to take place, and yes that will likely result in some new exposures and deaths, but we have to have measures in place to keep that minimal. If you read the article carefully, and if you listen to Dr. Fauci, any kind of return is predicated on having a number of things in place that we do not currently have.

Agreed. You are making my point for me, qwazse. For all those reasons cited there is no point to rush back into activities that are not essential. We need a measured WWII mentality. We are in this for the long haul and need to do all the right and prudent things as best we can determine. This will be our version of rationing, national discretion -- not in what we say but in what we do -- and sacrifice of some of the things we'd normally like to be enjoying. Our doctors, nurses, and medical researchers are in the middle of something like a Manhattan Project right now. We need to do our best to help them by not adding to the problem. IMHO.

qwaze, you are misunderstanding the concept of "herd immunity". The term arises from production animal medicine where producers want to minimize losses among livestock for economic reasons. It is generally achieved via vaccination. Producers do not want the kind of herd immunity process through contagion that you describe because that creates unsustainable economic losses. That is why producers are sometimes required to destroy entire herds or flocks to minimize the spread. We don't do the equivalent of that with humans for obvious reasons. In the scheme of things, recreational kid activities this summer should be pretty low down on the priority list. For starters, the workplace needs to get a lot safer for essential workers. Then we can start thinking about phasing in other aspects of daily life and the economy. Some of the models out today are talking about measures being in place until August so we'll see what happens.

Anyone weighing summer camp or other youth activities this summer needs to pay attention to the latest CDC report in Morbidity and Mortality released today. The report documents more than 2500 US pediatric infections, albeit many of them mild, but hundreds have resulted in hospitalization and there have been three deaths. It is useful to note that the median age of infected patients is 11 years and not all of the most serious cases have had underlying conditions reported. Children are less at risk, but they are still at risk. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6914e4.htm?s_cid=mm6914e4_w

I'm sorry but this is not the reality in many corners of our country that are not affluent. Sometimes the only times kids with underlying issues are picked up is when they have a mandatory physical.

I don't agree with either of those positions for medical reasons, but think about what you are suggesting from another angle: What kind of public relations do you think the bankrupt BSA would garner if it waived standard annual physical exam requirements in order to allow scouts to attend camp this summer and an asthmatic scout fell ill with COVID 19? It is not worth the risk of further damage to our reputation.

I've seen this idea floated before about waiving Part C to allow participation at camp. First, I'm not even sure how that would work on a liability basis from an insurance perspective. Second, it would seem ill advised from a public health perspective and that the opposite would be more ideal -- a more current physical. If there was ever a time to identify any underlying and previously undiagnosed conditions, or for a health care provider to provide one on one advice before heading to camp, it would be now. I understand the deep desire that we all have to get back to normal as quickly as possible but I don't think this is a good idea. Although I worry that wouldn't stop BSA from adopting it given the track record.

Yes, we just filed for this for our church and for a small business as well. I don't see camps or HA realistically operating this summer. Without a vaccine or effective therapeutics, I would not send a kid to camp even if they were open. The virus is mutating all the time and the more cases there are, the more mutations there are. We have seen an explosive increase in cases in the US and Europe. There is no guarantee it won't mutate into something that children are more susceptible to. The best way to avoid this is to keep them out of the clinical picture so that this very smart virus doesn't "learn" how to also target them. School in the fall with health measures and surveillance in place might be worth the risk. Optional camps or HA outings with poor hygiene this summer, no.

There will be no HA this summer. There will be no summer camps. So don't worry about it. Hopefully we can get something figured out for 2021. Nothing is going to happen until there is a vaccine or effective therapeutics and all that is months to a year or years away. Focus on supporting your family and helping the country and your fellow citizens by staying in place during this challenging time.

I'm sure we'll come out of a shutdown for a time if things start to look better. But then I expect we'll go back to some version of it because the virus does not show signs of being containable or seasonal. The amount of effort that is going to be required to deal with the fall out of it are going to be substantial and limiting for many aspects of our daily lives. Unless there are clear cut medical recommendations indicating it is completely safe for children and adults to gather in significant numbers, or there is some kind of medical breakthrough fast tracked on either the prevention (vaccine) or treatment front, I'm not sure much of anything will go on this summer due to liability and health concerns.

This is where BSA is missing the PR boat. We absolutely have tons of engaging online content and plenty of ideas for at home activities that could introduce non scout kids and families to scouting. Some of them might be interested enough to sign up when this is all over. I don't know why this isn't showing up on lists of things to do with your kids at home in major media. Why BSA isn't pushing any of it out on social media platforms (that I can see)? There is no risk of a child predator while doing a fun cub or scout activity from a rank achievement list or merit badge at home, and there are a ton of fun, interesting, or challenging ideas and activities in our program for all ages.

I don't think it's a good idea to have youth in a food establishment. They are trying to hang on with takeout orders, and food safety is paramount. No one other than essential and trained personnel should be on site. Right now is a perfect time to work on Bird Study. We're in the middle of spring migration. Most people live along a fly way. The lack of foliage right now and for the next couple weeks in most parts of the country means that many species are more easily viewed. Given how migration works, even the most urban setting can wind up with an amazing variety of species between now and May. Go on Cornell or Audubon sites and get your scouts birding. It can be done from the window.

I think we are over thinking this. Up to 100 or 150 years ago, most kids grew up isolated on the family farm with just parents and siblings. Some of the greatest human beings known to man grew up this way. I don't think a few weeks, months, or even a year of this is all that bad. We'll get through it. Wouldn't it be great if the long term benefit of this pause in our overly frenetic lifestyles is that kids learn how to think and concentrate again instead of living in our non stop ADHD world.

I think the best way we are all being told to help our community is to stay home and help our families get through this. A lot of these ideas are well intended but sending scouts out into the community in any way right now is a bad idea. Older scouts can help entertain younger siblings while mom and dad try to work from home. All scouts can get on the phone every day or on Skype and talk to grandma and grandpa and break up their boring day. Or a neighbor's. Older scouts can offer to do online or phone tutoring for younger kids that are having trouble with the new distance learning. Go through toys and see if there are any puzzles or games that can be donated anywhere that might take them assuming they are able to be disinfected. Make a training video for younger scouts on knot tying or some other lesson that can be used for a virtual den or troop meeting. Scouts can help with pet care by walking the dog around the block while maintaining social distancing. Work on some wildlife or conservation projects in the backyard. A lot of migrating birds are landing all over and are pretty hungry right now. Go on Audubon or Cornell and see what kinds of food you might have on hand and could put out (safely if you are in bear territory) to help them survive migration. Start work on a veggie garden to help your family have fresh produce if this continues through the summer, or work on a butterfly garden that will help our endangered butterflies. If you have a flag pole, do a flag ceremony every morning and night to remind everyone within hearing distance what we're all about. Or just put your flag out every day. If you have musical talent, play something in the backyard that your neighbors can hear (with discretion). I would not send kids under 18 into stores, but if an adult goes, your older scout could run the packages from the car to the porch step for an elderly or quarantined person. Also keep in mind that they should not be doing anything that could land them in the ER. The last thing you want is to be in the ER right now, and the worst thing for the community would be to have to allocate a hospital bed or medical resources to someone who suffered an avoidable injury. Be safe and well out there.

My apologies, BAJ. Bad day yesterday and I took your post the wrong way.

For crying out loud, we have more things to worry about than scouts getting advancements with made up community service projects. The best community service is to stay home and help your family.

I think the answer is that you are not going to have them. We all know how far out many of those well visits need to be scheduled even in normal times. The idea of, once this is over, being able to get an appointment in a timely manner is probably not realistic. I know camp deadlines are approaching and many people are in a quandary. I see two options: 1) go ahead and make plans despite the unknowns as long as there is a refund policy in place at the camp or 2) accept that a decision to camp will need to be made at a later date than normal give all the unknowns. The next couple weeks to month will give us a much better picture of what the summer will look like. No matter what I would be in close contact with your target camp so that they know who might be coming if things settle down enough this summer. Summer camps of all kind -- not just scouting -- are going to have to be flexible about this summer. If everything is a go but current physicals are a problem, camps may need to schedule days for campers to come get a physical from a camp physician the way they do with swim tests. If it's safe to camp this summer, successful camps will innovate ways to get youth to their programs.

We've never had this kind of situation before and I think summer plans could be really disrupted. Health officials are talking about an 8 week containment period, which puts us into mid May. A lot of K-12 schools and colleges are planning to be closed until the end of the year. It is not clear whether distance learning will work and in some cases, where labs or facilities are required in order to complete coursework, it won't. It is not clear if COVID 19 will demonstrate any seasonality, i.e., get knocked back by the warmer months. Certainly it's circulating pretty well in the Caribbean, so it might not. Academic schedules are being affected for millions of students and teachers. Education officials are talking about summer sessions which could significantly cut both the attendee and staffing pools for camps. I would plan to go to camp, but make sure there is a refund policy in case your district suddenly tells you kids needs to finish Algebra l over the summer to be able to enter Algebra ll in the fall. A lot of camps rely on teachers, but if they are running summer sessions,. they may not be available to staff. A lot of unknowns. Make your plans, but think about the contingencies. We all certainly hope this will blow over in a month or two, but who knows.

I really wouldn't worry about rank advancement at this point. What's happening right now is going to be very disruptive to kids and families. Just focus on maintaining a sense of community and fun and keeping your kids connected to scouting. If they don't finish Bear requirements, for example, they are still going to be Webelos. If there is a huge disruption in scouting, BSA will have to allow an extra grace period for attaining Eagle. High school and college kids right now are faced with not being able to complete pre-requisites that will affect their academic courses. Scouts should be focusing on keeping kids happy, connected and engaged and not worried about a six month slip in the Eagle mill. In my opinion.

Because it's an outdoor program, I'm seeing ways to continue getting kids out of doors even if it's not necessarily advancement related. Camping is out but hiking isn't. You can easily maintain social distancing on a day hike. A lot of parents are going to be home with kids so two deep shouldn't be a problem. Buddy system can be parent and adult. Bird Study. Forestry. GPS & Orienteering badge components can all be worked on, some of it even in the backyard. Getting outdoors and away from other people may actually be the only recreational pursuit open to many Americans in the weeks ahead. If your focus is advancement, yes, you'll be stuck. If your focus is trying to help scouts come up with interesting things they can do outside in the spirit of scouting and the game, then you will innovate. Urban scouters will have a harder time with this but there are still parks or perhaps places within a close drive. In the words of someone else on here... that's my two cents on the subject.

It seems to me this unfortunate national health crisis could actually be an opportunity for some positive PR for BSA among the public at large. There are going to be about 50 million parents looking for activities to do with their home bound kids over the next few weeks. They should be made aware of and invited to google "BSA" and peruse its prodigious online resources. There are plenty of cub scout activities and scout merit badges that are fun and can easily be done at home or in the backyard. Whittling animals out of soap bars with a plastic knife, making trail mix with whatever snacks you have on hand, bird watching or insect study in the back yard, etc. Or, if BSA was on its toes, send out a daily digest of ideas that would work in a variety of settings -- rural to urban.

I can't find that brochure anywhere else except at that specific council website. Do you have a BSA original source for it?

I read all of the FAQs and still don't follow this logic. It is not unusual for Troops and even Packs to help guest scouts from another troop to join up in some configuration for desired activities that might not be available in the home troop. These arrangements by default can result in an ad hoc leadership role for a guest scout for the duration of the activity. These situations can include provisional camping, hiking miles, leadership opportunities like a Den Chief, etc. BSA does not have a policy expressly excluding girls from any of these opportunities based on gender. The only requirement is that appropriate leadership and YPT are followed on the part of the adults. The FAQs provided above also create and endorse clear opportunities where blended leadership might occur. They reinforce it in fact when they state that blended dens and patrols can operate at Cub and Scout Day Camps. Activities at such camps would naturally include leadership opportunities. The FAQs further reinforce that different gender dens and patrols can meet at the same time/place and engage in joint activities which again would naturally result in opportunities for blended leadership. Nowhere does it state that a scout of either gender couldn't, say, serve as Chaplain's aide for the duration of a joint activity. The precedents have already been set. Unless there is a clear cut policy that says girls and boys may not ever hold leadership positions over the opposite gender -- and BSA would be falling on its own bad PR sword if it ever issued such a statement -- where is the policy that a girl or a boy can't serve in such leadership roles? And as ParkMan said, why does this even matter?

I think the only sensible course is to leave the SPL position in place. You cannot remove a female SPL from a joint position that was previously given to a male SPL until the term runs out. You have to consider the optics on that. More importantly, the impact on the scout. However it happened, pushing the idea now that children are being irreparably harmed by having a female SPL for a few months is a potential PR debacle. I can see her being interviewed on CNN now. You'd have to be pretty process blinded to not see that. Also, I would not be so sure that National would have a cow over a female joint SPL. At some point, BSA is likely going to whip out another survey or press release and say that scouting families overwhelmingly want the option of blended units. I think the Bryan on Scouting post shows where the thinking on that is headed.