yknot

Every other youth activity we are involved in has refunded or discounted its fees. Any online offerings over the summer were free and meant as a placeholder to keep the kids interested in the activity or organization and not as a replacement for program. In comparison, BSA is not only charging full price but raising fees. I cannot see the recruiting logic even though I understand the financial need. We are attempting to do some social distanced activities but the calendar will be limited. We are also having issues with meeting places as both our regular meeting venues -- a school and a church -- are still closed to the public. We will not be able to offer full value to scouts this fall or likely even into the spring.

As do I. I actually still have this thing called a passbook for my savings account. Every time I pull up to the drive through window -- because I still do in person banking -- the kids look at me as if I've just produced an original copy of the Magna Carta. They think it's cute that I still use one, and they have to root around to find the special slips needed for me to do a withdrawal or deposit. Every time I have to get a new one they solemnly inform me they have had to create it "by hand" as if that is some kind of magical skill. I've also been warned that they are doing away with passbooks sometime soon and I'll have to switch. The good news is that my one son is a numismatist of sorts but his coin of the realm is cryptocurrency. He makes so much money fooling around with that, he doesn't need any money from me. Strange new world.

So true. Most of the scouts and families in our unit use Venmo, CashApp or something like it. No one writes checks or uses cash much anymore. The good side of it is that I see younger and younger kids learning how to manage their own funds on their cell phones. The bad side is that it's yet another reason why it's getting hard to unplug them.

Horror story II : My nephew while visiting one summer raided a coin jar I'd kept since I was a kid into which I threw every steel penny, wheat ear penny, Mercury dime, buffalo nickel, and silver quarter that I found. He kept asking for snack and ice cream money and while I thought he was snagging the random bucks I left all over he was actually fascinated with the coin jug. I was standing with him one afternoon in front of the ice cream truck when I saw what he had in his hand. I said, "Holy Cow! Where'd you find those?" and he said, "In the jug in your office" LOL.. Thank goodness the really important stuff was boxed away.

Thank you all very much for your comments. They must walk their own path. All we can do is show them horizons. And give them a lunch bucket.

I posted on this earlier in the summer. I am not talking about revising the cub or scout program or criticizing what troops and packs were doing to keep alive. I was talking about re-purposing existing, branded, BSA content on a national level to entice new families looking for activities to do with their kids. The purpose would have been visibility and recruitment, not advancement. A kid or family that does not belong to scouts has no interest in completing, say, the bird study merit badge. However, there were plenty of kids out there looking for something to do out their window this summer. BSA could have easily pulled a few pieces out of that badge that kids could have done at home courtesy of your local friendly Spider--er, Scouter. If BSA had posted and promoted it on a youtube channel it could have helped drive kids to scouting and the local councils and units. It would have been good for recruitment at a time when we are all struggling with how to connect outside kids and families to us and show value with an organization that is charging more and offering less. On a local level, almost every nature center and watershed association near me has been doing this since the spring. They are engaging the kids. They are getting the membership fees from families at a time when all nonprofits are hurting. It's a model that's also working to some lesser degree in the arts and sports. They are not just promoting to their membership -- they are all over social media and other outlets. What do I see from BSA and local scouts? Nothing. Most of the communications I've seen have focused on Zoom meetings and endless online merit badges and will we get to summer camp for advancement opportunities. All good stuff but it is of little interest to kids outside of scouting at a time when we need to reach the broader world. We are a very inward looking organization. I am also not talking about doing anything in contravention to BSA or local health care or CO policy or guidelines. I increasingly feel we are doomed. My own son has just informed me he is done. I refuse to push him towards Eagle as I see so many other parents doing, so I guess this is it.

BSA is so caught up in its old view of what it is that it missed an historic opportunity this spring and summer to recruit youth especially at the cub level. No other youth organization was as well positioned as this one to provide outdoor opportunities to youth. Instead it focused on online merit badges and zoom meetings. We were more worried about summer camps than summer fun. From family to socially distanced den and patrol hiking to birding to weather watching to insect and mammal study it could have had pre packaged programming that got kids and families outdoors in the backyards or in local parks. Instead of seeing national ads for abuse lawsuits we should have been seeing national ads on how kids and families could use scout programming to safely get outdoors.

Umm... No one else was talking about uniforms except you, sir?

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Your experience is based on what you did in the 70s. There are a lot of people trying to make scouting work for families in the 2020s and the uniform is an issue as is the wearing of Native American regalia. I think you interpret a desire to be more relevant as being disrespectful, but that's not what it is. To me, making uniforms more economical and practical for current scouts is essential, and dropping practices that make most Millennial age families cringe is a no brainer. The military updates uniforms constantly based on better fabrics, fit, etc., with no lack of respect for tradition. Native American regalia has always been an interesting feature of scouts but it has little to do with its core. A chunk of the early handbooks were dedicated to horsemanship. Those skills were essential then but no longer because no one leads cavalry charges anymore. BP was a dedicated horseman and cavalryman and he often wore jodhpurs. At some point, though, he quit wearing them because... well... times changed.

My issue with the scout uniform is that it is outdated, does not align with function, and is of poor value and quality -- all problems that are related to the fact that its development has been driven more by marketing than utility or purpose. It's neither field uniform or parade uniform. If you go back to the early handbooks, most of the then scout uniform was based on function and economy. We have gotten very far away from that. But I really don't see how that relates to whether scouts should be wearing ceremonial garb. Native American regalia has never been considered a uniform.

I've been trying to understand this issue and while I am totally disgusted with the idea that wearing some article of clothing or putting some kind of makeup on your face (the latest bizarre problem is "fox eyes" in women) is cultural appropriation, I can see people having a problem with things strongly associated with their religion or culture. For example, I'd have a problem if some youth organization suddenly decided to dress up in bishop's mitres and dance around with shepherd's staffs to the tune of Ave Maria...

Strictly speaking, it's not fantasy. I have friends who were Rhodesian, now Zimbabwean. Some live here, a few are still attempting to live in Zimbabwe or have moved to South Africa. Google what happened there. That is a model that some activists use when they talk about reparations. It might seem unlikely here but six months ago I would never have been able to envision what's going on in our cities today. Who knows what another six months will bring.

When I was a kid I was fascinated by Indians. I loved Westerns. I spent hours looking for arrowheads. I wanted a Mustang. I completely get the sense of wonder and nostalgia and tradition. However, I think it's past time to let things like this go. Kids today are not much interested in it and few parents today are going to look at that aspect of BSA and think, gee, that's what I want my kid to be doing. Most that I know find it cringe worthy. We've had a drop off of interest in OA partly because of it.

We surely do disagree. I think there are a lot of people who have underestimated the inherent risks of group activities during a pandemic. They underestimated those risks all late spring and summer and now instead of the country heading into fall with the pandemic largely quelled it is as bad now as it's ever been. Underestimating the pandemic has only prolonged its negative effects. That's what's making it hard to re-open schools, not closed summer camps. I live in one of the few areas of the country where schools can probably safely reopen in a couple weeks, but that's only because we didn't underestimate risks of exposure and transmission.

It's possible but is likely very problematic. Organizations that mess up and declare bankruptcy can still get insurance, but it's generally expensive and comes with lots of strings and BSA's fall has been so public. But anything local not under at least that wide national umbrella still trying to affiliate with scouts might not be able to afford or get any kind of insurance at all. The local solution you cite depends on an individual being willing to assume all that risk personally. This is all open water.

No one is debating the potential interest of Summit as a scout destination. The problem is accessibility. As you stated, it worked out for your unit. Mine would also probably have no problem finding the funds if they wanted to attend. The issue is when units do not have the level of support your unit or mine enjoys. Or when units run by working parent volunteers can't consider a camp more than a hour away so that they can trade days off and still get back home to get to work. I believe likely that describes a big part of the country, especially during and, hopefully, post Covid.

In other posts you have pointedly suggested that councils should close under performing local camps and funnel scouts to Summit. My Council will be fine, thank you. It is thankfully fairly well run despite the usual National on down nonsense, and the camps are well supported although of course always in need of something. What I'm worried about, however, are kids outside my regions.

There's no doubt that Summit attempted to do the best it could and in fact, based on reports so far, exceeds what local school districts have been able to accomplish. However, that still doesn't address whether it should have been done at all. From my view of scout law, it has been a foolhardy risk. The ecumenical churches I am involved with are not meeting in person because it is counter to their imperative to do no harm. Could we be meeting? Yes. Is it likely we would be safe? Yes. Should we do it? We all decided no.

I am not so sure that it will become that de-centralized because of liability insurance. Anything that runs under a surviving BSA banner will need to closely follow policies and procedures in line with what insurers require, and those requirements are almost certain to become more stringent post bankruptcy. There are a lot of folks on this forum who believe scouting is a movement that requires only a handbook, volunteers, and scouts, but you would still need to be incorporated in some way and carry insurance. Outside of very affluent areas that's a tall order. In the units I'm familiar with in my area, they can meet for a hike in any park on an ad hoc basis like any other citizen, but if you want to rent a campground or reserve a pavilion or do fundraising in front of a store, you've got to have a COI. Someone could also do some of that individually, but then if something happens you are personally liable and your assets are at risk.

This is just absolutely the opposite of what scouting is supposed to be about. I am terrifically glad that the summer at Summit has so far continued apace without incident, but it was a foolhardy and ridiculous risk to import youth from all over into West Virginia and local folks were and are understandably upset. I've got family in the area so I know this is not at all as bucolic a situation as is presented here. Furthermore, it's appalling that certain people keep pushing the idea that it is acceptable that local and regional camps will fold and that Summit should become the fall back. That might get us through a few years but it is not a long term solution. Scouting must be local. The scenario you are outlining is a parallel to the elite travel sports teams that many on this forum mock and who have the money to travel to exotic locations like Disney or Europe. There are some favored urban areas where moneyed interests are available to make such things happen for disadvantaged youth, but in the full breadth of America, this is not the fortunate case for most scouts.

This is so disheartening. There was a Washington Post piece the other day about the Portland protesters that was illustrated like a fashion photo shoot with all these protesters vamping for the camera in their cool grunge SJW outfits. It made them look like some new kind of super heroes. Awful. How I wish they would do the same kind of feature of scouts in their uniforms -- class A or class B -- out doing community service work. Instead we glorify these misguided youth who think it's OK to barricade a building and set fire to it with people inside.

I agree about the self motivated part to certain degree. However, I have also seen scouts and units get stuck in a rut, doing the same thing year after year. Service projects for the same community organization simply because it's easy, regardless of whether or not they really need more aid; camping at the same campgrounds just because they are part of the known universe and not because anyone thinks they are particularly fun. I think adults have an obligation to help scouts brainstorm and think outside the box. That doesn't mean doing research for them, but it does mean making sure they realize all that's possible, even if it's just asking the simple question, "Have you ever thought of...?" And during this situation with Covid, where there are restrictions or opportunities that youth may not even comprehend, I think some adult input might be helpful. No one has ever lived through this before.

That link reminds me that I come to this discussion from a different place than those who have only experienced the uniform method through scouting. When I was a kid, I participated in a youth sports related organization with military roots that performed formal uniform inspections of the candidate whether for advancement or competition. White glove, fingernail scratch, see your face in the shine type inspections.The formal inspection at heart was a safety inspection, but you were expected to present yourself with military precision. There was purpose to that because the sport was inherently dangerous and required attention to detail to manage risks and prevent injury. Almost every component of the uniform,and associated equipment, while looking neat, was a function of safety or minimizing risk. There was no marketing behind it because the organization did not sell the uniform it only set standards regarding function. As a result, the uniform was both functional and economical. I was not a rich kid but I was easily able to meet this standard. As an older youth member and then later as an adult, I became an advancement examiner and competition official. I conducted many of these inspections as part of my duty to assess whether youth were safe to advance to a higher level of training and competition. Because of the reasons outlined above I never had an issue with those uniform requirements because they made sense, were functional, and were never a barrier for youth. When I started with scouting, however, I saw uniforms used in a different way-- almost as a tool for punishment. I could not understand this. In the other organization, it made sense to me if youth were prevented from participating if they lacked an essential safety item. In scouts, it did not make sense to me if scouts were prevented from participating if they wore the wrong color shirt.. It had nothing to do with function. It also made no sense that uniform components had to be discarded, not because they were unsafe or worn out, but because they were the wrong ... color? The uniform in the early guidebooks makes the most sense to me because it is based on function and not marketing. All the language associated with uniforming in the early guidebooks is connected to function. In my opinion, if scouting survives bankruptcy, we need to revise this.

We are indeed discussing personal ideals. You just disagree with them so you prefer to denigrate them rather than discuss. My definition of weak leadership is someone who is more concerned about uniform inspections than whether scouts are, say, camping. I've been in that kind of unit, so that's why I hold that opinion. To me a perfect uniform is aspirational, not something that becomes a barrier that prevents youth from participating.

I'm not sure what we're discussing here, or what the point is. A priest can deliver sacraments without a collar. A doctor can save lives without a lab coat. A scout can be a scout without a uniform. We are not a military organization. A uniform is nice but not required. Is the uniform an extension of your own ego as far as how you believe scouts should appear or behave? Does that have any place in scouting? I'm on board with the idea that it is a tool to encourage personal presentation skills and pride in membership. Beyond that, if it gets in the way of delivering program or scouts accessing program, I'm not on board.