yknot

I don't know about that. Is Eagle really the penultimate reason why most kids join scouts, or is it something BSA has used to market scouting to parents? I remember standing with my final AOL den of very excited cubs at crossover listening to welcoming words from our new scoutmaster. They couldn't wait to be scouts. Until he started talking. Sure, he mentioned Philmont and Seasbase, but then it was mostly all about advancement. All about walking the Eagle path. All about what that would mean to help them get into college and how it would help put their resume at the top of any pile when it was time to get a job. The parents loved it. The checkbooks couldn't come out fast enough. The AOL scouts, on the other hand, were not that enthused. Almost 100% of the scouts in our unit -- and most of the units around here -- achieve Eagle. Maybe one or two each year don't out of an entire unit. However, while we usually cross over huge classes of AOL scouts (for us), we lose about 75% of them after the first year post crossover. For many youth, the advancement path to Eagle seems boring. A lot of them are not interested in some of the required merit badges because a lot of them are like homework. The advancement to Eagle path in our unit works great for parents who want their scout to be able to put Eagle on their college application. It also works great for the kinds of achievement oriented boys who truly enjoy the advancement process and all that that entails. But for a good number of boys -- like the ones I mentioned in another post that I was so happy to see yesterday, walking around town with fishing poles, on their bikes, and rock skipping -- it is possibly a turn off. I have been gratified to see so many impressive young men work their way towards Eagle, the best of them under their own steam and not handheld by parents or coaches. I know how much the process has meant to them, and how proud they are of their accomplishments. On the flip side, I've been deeply saddened by the kids we lose because a focus on advancement is not for them. Some of the best scouts I know -- ones that to my mind truly embody the very best character traits of a scout -- have just found the program unappealing. Some of the worst scouts I know have been pushed through to Eagle and the boys see that. I think we need to consider this. I have more I'm going to post in response to your long but good post above in a bit but I wanted to share my thoughts on this specific point. Eagle scout? Is it really what scouting should bet its future on? We often reflexively view it as the gold standard, but I'm torn. Maybe focusing on it is part of our problem.

I'm not sure Lone Scouts will fly. It might fit the kid model of fun, which I've endorsed elsewhere, but Gen X and Millennial parents are looking for something different. A good hybrid of Lone Scout (which would need to be renamed because it sounds like Lone Wolf and an army sniper program neither of which are PC today) and as a Covid/Rural option for scouting might work under the umbrella of a larger program. Parents today want kid showcases and accomplishments for the time they invest as families. The only thing saving scouting right now apart from those who love the outdoors aspect or the service aspect are the die hard parents who want to push their scout through to Eagle so they have something to put on the college app.

You know what? This summer I have seen the closest thing to the way I, and it sounds like you, grew up. Yesterday driving around town I saw multiple pods of kids on bicycles, with fishing poles, hiking around parks and skimming stones in places I usually never see kids. It's not as bad out there as we think. The problem is BSA has no idea on how to reach these kids or any mechanism or true desire to modify its program in order to do so. I'm not a kool aid drinking scouts person. I got involved with scouts because I want to see kids outdoors, because that's what I love and is what I think is good for kids. The endless merit badges and advancements pressure and religious/social rigidity and uniform nazis and homework like programming is not where my head or heart is at. This summer, for the first time in 30 years, I've seen kids out of doors in numbers. All I know is that I'm going where the kids are. I hope BSA figures it out and follows because I think that is truly the only way to be relevant and survive.

I don't know if scout units would be interested in these but I had proposed putting them together for some programming I was working on for our local schools and parks department. They were green lighted but then we lost funding so I can't give feedback on how they worked: - Bird study -- cheap binoculars, field guides, and Audubon and Cornell University educational materials. There are also some free apps you can download so printed instructions for those. Everything laminated. - Water study -- nets, buckets, specimen boxes, field guides, educational materials from local watershed associations. - Fishing -- fishing poles, nets, buckets, bait and tackle box, field guides, educational materials from local trout unlimited or fly fishing chapter. This kit will fit in someone's donated baseball or ski/snowboard equipment bag. - Animal tracking - field guides, cast making materials, clay casts or posters. I found that local watershed and wildlife associations and local Audubon chapters would work with you in providing materials. You can appeal to local birding groups to donate old bins for the kit.

I often agree with your viewpoints but this is one where I can't. I have heard this argument before as well from the Catholic Church. That it's the media attention and political interests that are at fault and not the organization. But both BSA and the Catholic Church are in very different positions than schools or sports. None of those other groups ever held themselves up as bastions of morality and character and trust. In both scouting and the church, we allowed monsters to cloak themselves in the respect that our organizations conferred within the community and it allowed them to operate. We also often did not want to fully face or root it out ourselves. We still do this today. I still see people being reluctant to speak out about some odd person or action despite all the YPT training and publicity. Our responsibility is greater because our calling was higher by our own words. There is no defense for this. If children were not safe in any other setting, they should have been safe under the care of scouting and the church and they were not. I realize others will see it differently, but that's how I see it. That's why I have such a hard time with it.

Every other youth activity we are involved in has refunded or discounted its fees. Any online offerings over the summer were free and meant as a placeholder to keep the kids interested in the activity or organization and not as a replacement for program. In comparison, BSA is not only charging full price but raising fees. I cannot see the recruiting logic even though I understand the financial need. We are attempting to do some social distanced activities but the calendar will be limited. We are also having issues with meeting places as both our regular meeting venues -- a school and a church -- are still closed to the public. We will not be able to offer full value to scouts this fall or likely even into the spring.

As do I. I actually still have this thing called a passbook for my savings account. Every time I pull up to the drive through window -- because I still do in person banking -- the kids look at me as if I've just produced an original copy of the Magna Carta. They think it's cute that I still use one, and they have to root around to find the special slips needed for me to do a withdrawal or deposit. Every time I have to get a new one they solemnly inform me they have had to create it "by hand" as if that is some kind of magical skill. I've also been warned that they are doing away with passbooks sometime soon and I'll have to switch. The good news is that my one son is a numismatist of sorts but his coin of the realm is cryptocurrency. He makes so much money fooling around with that, he doesn't need any money from me. Strange new world.

So true. Most of the scouts and families in our unit use Venmo, CashApp or something like it. No one writes checks or uses cash much anymore. The good side of it is that I see younger and younger kids learning how to manage their own funds on their cell phones. The bad side is that it's yet another reason why it's getting hard to unplug them.

Horror story II : My nephew while visiting one summer raided a coin jar I'd kept since I was a kid into which I threw every steel penny, wheat ear penny, Mercury dime, buffalo nickel, and silver quarter that I found. He kept asking for snack and ice cream money and while I thought he was snagging the random bucks I left all over he was actually fascinated with the coin jug. I was standing with him one afternoon in front of the ice cream truck when I saw what he had in his hand. I said, "Holy Cow! Where'd you find those?" and he said, "In the jug in your office" LOL.. Thank goodness the really important stuff was boxed away.

Thank you all very much for your comments. They must walk their own path. All we can do is show them horizons. And give them a lunch bucket.

I posted on this earlier in the summer. I am not talking about revising the cub or scout program or criticizing what troops and packs were doing to keep alive. I was talking about re-purposing existing, branded, BSA content on a national level to entice new families looking for activities to do with their kids. The purpose would have been visibility and recruitment, not advancement. A kid or family that does not belong to scouts has no interest in completing, say, the bird study merit badge. However, there were plenty of kids out there looking for something to do out their window this summer. BSA could have easily pulled a few pieces out of that badge that kids could have done at home courtesy of your local friendly Spider--er, Scouter. If BSA had posted and promoted it on a youtube channel it could have helped drive kids to scouting and the local councils and units. It would have been good for recruitment at a time when we are all struggling with how to connect outside kids and families to us and show value with an organization that is charging more and offering less. On a local level, almost every nature center and watershed association near me has been doing this since the spring. They are engaging the kids. They are getting the membership fees from families at a time when all nonprofits are hurting. It's a model that's also working to some lesser degree in the arts and sports. They are not just promoting to their membership -- they are all over social media and other outlets. What do I see from BSA and local scouts? Nothing. Most of the communications I've seen have focused on Zoom meetings and endless online merit badges and will we get to summer camp for advancement opportunities. All good stuff but it is of little interest to kids outside of scouting at a time when we need to reach the broader world. We are a very inward looking organization. I am also not talking about doing anything in contravention to BSA or local health care or CO policy or guidelines. I increasingly feel we are doomed. My own son has just informed me he is done. I refuse to push him towards Eagle as I see so many other parents doing, so I guess this is it.

BSA is so caught up in its old view of what it is that it missed an historic opportunity this spring and summer to recruit youth especially at the cub level. No other youth organization was as well positioned as this one to provide outdoor opportunities to youth. Instead it focused on online merit badges and zoom meetings. We were more worried about summer camps than summer fun. From family to socially distanced den and patrol hiking to birding to weather watching to insect and mammal study it could have had pre packaged programming that got kids and families outdoors in the backyards or in local parks. Instead of seeing national ads for abuse lawsuits we should have been seeing national ads on how kids and families could use scout programming to safely get outdoors.

Umm... No one else was talking about uniforms except you, sir?

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Your experience is based on what you did in the 70s. There are a lot of people trying to make scouting work for families in the 2020s and the uniform is an issue as is the wearing of Native American regalia. I think you interpret a desire to be more relevant as being disrespectful, but that's not what it is. To me, making uniforms more economical and practical for current scouts is essential, and dropping practices that make most Millennial age families cringe is a no brainer. The military updates uniforms constantly based on better fabrics, fit, etc., with no lack of respect for tradition. Native American regalia has always been an interesting feature of scouts but it has little to do with its core. A chunk of the early handbooks were dedicated to horsemanship. Those skills were essential then but no longer because no one leads cavalry charges anymore. BP was a dedicated horseman and cavalryman and he often wore jodhpurs. At some point, though, he quit wearing them because... well... times changed.

My issue with the scout uniform is that it is outdated, does not align with function, and is of poor value and quality -- all problems that are related to the fact that its development has been driven more by marketing than utility or purpose. It's neither field uniform or parade uniform. If you go back to the early handbooks, most of the then scout uniform was based on function and economy. We have gotten very far away from that. But I really don't see how that relates to whether scouts should be wearing ceremonial garb. Native American regalia has never been considered a uniform.

I've been trying to understand this issue and while I am totally disgusted with the idea that wearing some article of clothing or putting some kind of makeup on your face (the latest bizarre problem is "fox eyes" in women) is cultural appropriation, I can see people having a problem with things strongly associated with their religion or culture. For example, I'd have a problem if some youth organization suddenly decided to dress up in bishop's mitres and dance around with shepherd's staffs to the tune of Ave Maria...

Strictly speaking, it's not fantasy. I have friends who were Rhodesian, now Zimbabwean. Some live here, a few are still attempting to live in Zimbabwe or have moved to South Africa. Google what happened there. That is a model that some activists use when they talk about reparations. It might seem unlikely here but six months ago I would never have been able to envision what's going on in our cities today. Who knows what another six months will bring.

When I was a kid I was fascinated by Indians. I loved Westerns. I spent hours looking for arrowheads. I wanted a Mustang. I completely get the sense of wonder and nostalgia and tradition. However, I think it's past time to let things like this go. Kids today are not much interested in it and few parents today are going to look at that aspect of BSA and think, gee, that's what I want my kid to be doing. Most that I know find it cringe worthy. We've had a drop off of interest in OA partly because of it.

We surely do disagree. I think there are a lot of people who have underestimated the inherent risks of group activities during a pandemic. They underestimated those risks all late spring and summer and now instead of the country heading into fall with the pandemic largely quelled it is as bad now as it's ever been. Underestimating the pandemic has only prolonged its negative effects. That's what's making it hard to re-open schools, not closed summer camps. I live in one of the few areas of the country where schools can probably safely reopen in a couple weeks, but that's only because we didn't underestimate risks of exposure and transmission.

It's possible but is likely very problematic. Organizations that mess up and declare bankruptcy can still get insurance, but it's generally expensive and comes with lots of strings and BSA's fall has been so public. But anything local not under at least that wide national umbrella still trying to affiliate with scouts might not be able to afford or get any kind of insurance at all. The local solution you cite depends on an individual being willing to assume all that risk personally. This is all open water.

No one is debating the potential interest of Summit as a scout destination. The problem is accessibility. As you stated, it worked out for your unit. Mine would also probably have no problem finding the funds if they wanted to attend. The issue is when units do not have the level of support your unit or mine enjoys. Or when units run by working parent volunteers can't consider a camp more than a hour away so that they can trade days off and still get back home to get to work. I believe likely that describes a big part of the country, especially during and, hopefully, post Covid.

In other posts you have pointedly suggested that councils should close under performing local camps and funnel scouts to Summit. My Council will be fine, thank you. It is thankfully fairly well run despite the usual National on down nonsense, and the camps are well supported although of course always in need of something. What I'm worried about, however, are kids outside my regions.

There's no doubt that Summit attempted to do the best it could and in fact, based on reports so far, exceeds what local school districts have been able to accomplish. However, that still doesn't address whether it should have been done at all. From my view of scout law, it has been a foolhardy risk. The ecumenical churches I am involved with are not meeting in person because it is counter to their imperative to do no harm. Could we be meeting? Yes. Is it likely we would be safe? Yes. Should we do it? We all decided no.

I am not so sure that it will become that de-centralized because of liability insurance. Anything that runs under a surviving BSA banner will need to closely follow policies and procedures in line with what insurers require, and those requirements are almost certain to become more stringent post bankruptcy. There are a lot of folks on this forum who believe scouting is a movement that requires only a handbook, volunteers, and scouts, but you would still need to be incorporated in some way and carry insurance. Outside of very affluent areas that's a tall order. In the units I'm familiar with in my area, they can meet for a hike in any park on an ad hoc basis like any other citizen, but if you want to rent a campground or reserve a pavilion or do fundraising in front of a store, you've got to have a COI. Someone could also do some of that individually, but then if something happens you are personally liable and your assets are at risk.

This is just absolutely the opposite of what scouting is supposed to be about. I am terrifically glad that the summer at Summit has so far continued apace without incident, but it was a foolhardy and ridiculous risk to import youth from all over into West Virginia and local folks were and are understandably upset. I've got family in the area so I know this is not at all as bucolic a situation as is presented here. Furthermore, it's appalling that certain people keep pushing the idea that it is acceptable that local and regional camps will fold and that Summit should become the fall back. That might get us through a few years but it is not a long term solution. Scouting must be local. The scenario you are outlining is a parallel to the elite travel sports teams that many on this forum mock and who have the money to travel to exotic locations like Disney or Europe. There are some favored urban areas where moneyed interests are available to make such things happen for disadvantaged youth, but in the full breadth of America, this is not the fortunate case for most scouts.