yknot

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying but I think we agree. BSA is largely built around fundraising support, even to the local (council and unit) levels. It is not built around volunteer and unit support. Even the local fundraising model is failing, but I'm not sure BSA is too focused on fixing it beyond trying to recruit membership. I think they are more concerned with overall survival -- the survival of the national Congressionally chartered entity -- and have priorities elsewhere. If you look at where the bulk of its money has been invested, it is in Summit.

Personally I think their end game or at least back up plan is that Summit and Philmont are going to be the Disney Land and Disney World of scouting. Scouting will largely become a nostalgic activity at marquee regional destinations with some limited local units as satellites around whatever regional hubs are worth retaining. Easier to manage and monetize. BSA is not built around local scouting and really doesn't show any signs of changing that.

I don't know that you could have kids under 18 do much of anything that is actually hands on with animals because of liability issues but maybe if there was some kind of certification program that could qualify them or it could become an aspect of the pet care merit badge. I know the VMAT personnel generally have some specialized training in their roles. It's more likely that youth could assist with set up/custodial/close up type tasks. It's also not just small animals, many regions need to identify large animal facilities and a lot of help is required to prepare those more sprawling facilities during a disaster or event.

Part of the reason packs are down is because during the pandemic other organizations stepped up to the plate with outdoor programming while scouting mostly shut down. Participation has remained high because parents saw that those programs are easier to participate in for a day or a season, cheaper, more focused, and generally led by more knowledgeable people. It also doesn't require fundraising or for parents to pay to volunteer. Scouters habitually gripe about youth sports, but the outdoors used to be scouting's turf and others have moved in very effectively. It's perhaps not as recognized because it's not as organized or monolithic as say Little League or Pop Warner.

Perhaps @malrauxwill be kind enough to post an updated number for us. I don't remember if they can do a cub breakdown, but I think they can see overall recruitment.

I think it's a mistake to look at cubs that way. Some things are just different. Nature centers do a far better job with pre-school level programming than scouts ever can, or should. It's far easier for parents to just plunk down a few dollars and show up for a few sessions with the naturalist. Youth sports is similar. Young kids mostly sample -- they'll play soccer in fall, basketball in winter, T ball in spring -- and cubs is not a sampling program. I don't think we so much as lose kids to other activites, I think some activities are better suited to kids at these younger ages. A lot of parents want their 5 and 6 year olds running around the field or the court; they don't want more sitting and paying attention or wearing uncomfortable, expensive uniforms.

One of the things to consider is that a 10 year old has a much easier time learning all the knots than a six or seven year old. They aren't cramming anything -- they are simply mostly more capable of it by that age.

I think it's easy to get way too carried away with awards. While some things in cub scouting may take some perserverence, nothing is hard. It is no more difficult for a 10 year old to earn AOL than it is for a six year old to earn Tiger because it's an age appropriate progression and the skills are easily attainable by the particular age. This seems to be reaching for ways to make certain groups of kids seem more worthy than another. Cubs simply isn't built that way.

Eagling, planning, budgeting, having everyone remind you for the rest of your life that you screwed up one meal -- these are the kinds of things adults think are great but are not what kids will think are great. It's also kind of weird that a new leader would come out the starting box making somewhat dated anti sports comments. Youth sports is not the reason why scouting is in trouble but it seems to be a perennially popular dog whistle for people who like to deflect blame there. There's more to be gained by a positive collaborative attitude with some of the nation's other youth organizations vs. a negative one -- BSA could actually learn some things. A willingness to communicate directly with the troops, though, would be one major immediate plus.

Most schools and even COs have adopted a fee structure based on economics so the fee isn't the issue. What I agree with the Girl Scouts on is that the fee structure is odd. The districts I dealt with had a formula that computed fees on three elements: space requested, frequency, and profit/nonprofit status. There was also a fourth 'soft' element which was whether or not the entity involved offered something of use to the district's school children. So a classroom rental had a more minimal rental fee than the gymnasium or auditorium; if you met regularly once or twice a month vs. a one off event there was a frequency discount; and higher fees were charged for profit vs. nonprofit groups. If there was a conflict, student centered organizations were given priority. All organizations were subject to approval by the board of ed. A $30 fee per kid seems ridiculous. As cited above though no matter what condition they leave the room, the district still incurs expenses in allowing them access to the building that must be recouped.

I think some places are lucky and have a very competent CM or SM, or a well run unit, or a functional council. That can be a very mixed bag around the country though.

That's a perception issue that the child sexual abuse history has obscured: public perceptions of overall competence and program safety is not great. For example, this summer, some camps were desperately advertising for volunteers at their shooting ranges by stating 'no training needed, we'll train you'. Did not instill confidence in the program overall no matter how good the RSO might have been.

Kid fundraising is indeed out of control and I have also become increasingly sensitive to the financial and time challenges faced by some families. There is a lot of free stuff out there and sometimes it helps to get off the unit/district/roundtable/council/BSA bandwagon/herd and scout around for random stuff you can find on your own. I don't know what level you are, cubs or troop, but there is a 4th grade free national parks pass that can be used to get 4th graders and several family members into most national properties, not just parks, for free. Many YMCA's offer free year long trial memberships to middle school age students and we have been able to use the connection to get free or very cheap access to Y facilities, like an after hours pool session. Kids Bowl Free is offered during the summer. Check out all your local tourism and leisure industry boards to see what kinds of youth events and deals they offer. A ski region near us had a winter kid pass for late afternoon/night skiing that was dirt cheap. Combined with someone finding a nearby church basement, it made for a very cheap winter ski camp in. We also developed a list of municipal, private camp, land trust, and private property sites that would allow us to camp for free mostly off season. I've done free youth events with local chapters of Audubon, Trout Unlimited, Ducks Unlimited, the national weather service, the US Patent and Trademark office, etc.

Parenting methods have changed a lot in the past decade or so but the pandemic didn't help and many of these parents who were juggling kids and working at home short circuited right alongside the kids to some degree. That's not an excuse, but it is another challenge. A little household destruction was considered the price of staying employed while parents locked themselves in the closet for zoom meetings. Normally in scout led you would let scouts come up with the meeting programing but in this case I might try to actively schedule some cool things and speakers to hold their attention for awhile. It can help the younger ones learn to focus through actual interest and give the older ones a break until they mature a little more. We also had a bathroom trashed so we did things like sign out sheets, one at a time, adults monitoring who was out of the room, etc.

The pandemic has had a noticeable effect on child development and what might have been reasonable expectations before are not at present for some of these kids. There has been a lot of discussion about this in the educational community because teachers are continuing to deal with it in the classroom and that would be a good place to look. In general, these kids need more social intervention, not less, so suspension might not be productive. Expecting peers to be able to manage this along old youth led models also may not be productive because they are experiencng some of the same deficits. From what I've read and done, smaller group sizes, more mentoring, and giving more explicit and direct and sometimes repeated instructions is helpful. Bad behavior is bad behavior and has to be dealt with, but some of these kids need perhaps more adult supervision and mentoring than scouters may have been comfortable with in the past.

I'm not kidding. All the scouting images are of his stunt double except for the weenie roast with Odie. He did that one because there was food.

I don't think it's out there I think some councils already do a version of that type of thing. One of the ones here runs short session summer camps that seem to rotate around the council at different park facilities for a week at a time. I don't think councils are going to have the wherewithal to buy property, I think they are going to have to look for partnerships and facility usage agreements. I think the traditional chartering organization model is dying and councils are going to fulfill more of that role without investing in real estate.

I think owning and managing a site would be difficult today for most units. There are a couple former scout "huts" in my area that are either nonfunctional or in other hands with some continued scout access. We had a lot of luck working with private land trusts or municipalities to gain camping sites and access. We were also to develop relationships to use several private camps for local off season camping. We camped several times midweek when our school districts had random days off for professional development, parent conferences, etc.

Just so you know, I interviewed Garfield and he was only in scouting for the lasagna.

I'm glad to see this because he's largely been a cipher after more than 6 months in the role. He said more changes are coming and if so that's good and I'll take him at his word.

I'm not sure BSA did that directly but since University of Colorado Boulder is one of the leading universities concerned with NA issues it's an appropriate place to hold NOAC but an unlikely place to host AIA type events. UCB's NA center basically led the fight with the NFL to change team names.

Anyone know what that means? Was that anticipated when the trust was established?

Scouting is only a bargain when other people volunteer.

Costs and relative value for any youth activity are pretty dependent on where you are, what kind of council and unit you are in, and how involved your scout and family want to be in it. You can spend thousands on a couple seasons of a travel sport; you can spend thousands on a HA trip or jambo type events. One of the initial sticker shock problems with scouting is that there is no gradual on ramp; you pretty much pay the same to try it out as a cub scout as you do to rejoin as a seasoned troop level scout. That's not the case with most other youth activities geared for the elementary level age groups and it is a deterrent.

You're welcome. Migration is often thought of as a daytime event, which it is for many species, especially the very visible raptors, or because of what is seen during local fallouts and daytime feeder visits. Songbird migration, though, at least on the wing, is largely a nighttime phenomenon. Hopefully things like Birdcast will help build an appreciation for what is overhead on many nights in the spring and fall. The recent full moons in the northeast have been great for showing this to kids.