CommishJulian

DAMN that's harsh! Hearing that said by another person that is. But I know it to be true.

Wow! Great thread. Great conversations... about a lousy topic. About 8 years ago I concluded that BSA wanted to make money selling camps. In those 8 years, our Council merged, and 5 properties were liquidated. I've made up a list of sneaky ways Councils sell properties, one of them is closing a camp for a year, or not listing it for a season, and then complaining that it lost money that year. I've met a regional stooge before. They make politicians look humane. This one didn't give a rat's arse about the kids or us volunteers. To be in that high of a tier of the BSA you need to be a full-blown fanatic and card carrying party member. Every Council is different, with their motives and issues. Our Council is a cult, but the one a few miles away is super nice to their families, but fell on hard times. I've found that real numbers, data, excel spreadsheets is the best way to look at Scouting. Numbers typically don't lie and will tell you whats what. But in failing areas, stooges in charge don't want the numbers shown because it makes them look bad. I'll echo what someone said earlier, and encourage readers to stay focused on keeping the youth engaged. Ignore the price-hike threats and let them come to you with their sob stories about losing money and the threat of selling camps. When they do come to your unit with a huge price hike, play dumb and let them explain it to you. Then I would ask the unit (parents) how they feel about it, and if they want to continue or not.

So many good points. So much good experience in this forum. Here's my two cents & worry. We know that bad scouters make for a bad experience, both adult or youth. In dysfunctional units, boys can learn to control an environment through their actions. I pulled my son out of a toxic Pack after 11 months because of the habitual hitting. The following day we joined a pack 3 miles away and had the best time there. That Pack is why I became a UC and am still a volunteer to this day. So, telling a parent it is okay to look for a better fit, without any guilt, is huge. However, my compliments to Fred's counter points for not 'unit shopping'. Units are falling everywhere, and I blame bad scouters for it. Doesn't matter if it's at the CS, BS, District and Council level. Bad scouters are a dime a dozen in this generation. Looking for a better unit now doesn't work like before because there are fewer units still alive. I want to target Liz for her post. In it she covered ways an average parent can try working the problem using her own experiences as a guide. (We have similar stories) My concern is this: The BSA and most Councils won't address problems of bad scouters because they are afraid. Most Charter Org Reps just don't know their roles or that they are needed to get involved from time to time. Unit Commissioners are supposed to help the unit, but who knows if the unit even has one assigned to it. This site does a lot of good empowering average volunteers to address their local issues (families breaking BSA guidelines) in their own backyards. Bad scouters make for bad experiences, and eventually lead to units going dark. Empowering parents is the best way I've come up with in slowing the collapse of scouting. The amazing collection of scouters in this site are able to give their opinions to new parents that will give them a better than average chance of changing the culture... if they are willing to stand up and address their unit's problems. About Liz' no "bad kids" thing. While it's a minority, there are bad youth in all youth programs, BSA, PTA, LL, AYSO, etc. We had one sociopathic youth in our district who had assaulted 8 first graders in his first year as a Tiger. His parents were awful but were large contributors to the Council. He's estimated to have harmed over 30 youth. He was working on his Eagle project in spite of it all, but that may have been put on hold since being sent to a juvenal detention facility in a neighboring county. We also had two adult psychopaths in our Council who drove away hundreds of families over the course of 20 years. One was dismissed, the other not. Both got silver beavers. I think it better that new parents get the good AND the bad when participating. At least they won't be so confused then things don't work out as promised. My hope is that they will hunker down and work towards making the unit comply with BSA guidelines rather than pulling their kids out and walking away.

CChairman: I'm late to this, but just in case it's still is an issue, I have a few thoughts. qwazse is right, the Charter Org Rep is the person that needs to get involved. While this may not be to their liking, it does fall under their jurisdiction. Get a few parents to draft their list of incidents that the adult in question has done. Include dates, a brief description, and how it made them feel afterward. Having one list from you is okay, but three different perspectives hold more weight. Make a cover letter, as a leader, with the other reports, and send that to the COR. In the cover letter, tell the COR what you need them to do. (I guess it would be alright to print this thread and include it with your letter. At least the COR will have more confidence in taking action.) Find the appropriate BSA pdf covering their bad actions. For example, I printed the 2019 Guide To Advancement, put that in a 3 ring binder, and showed that to a SM who delayed SM reviews. Having a guide in writing, helps a lot, but not always. Now the bad news: The #1 litmus for a bad scouter is that they get angry. When a volunteer gets angry, they're personally invested and have lost objectivity. Getting them to change is unlikely, but not impossible. Don't let their anger affect you when you address them, remember it's personal for them. Even though it is hard, it must be done. The longer they stay there angry, the more people will leave the unit. -In my experiences, I've found bad scouters to be undeveloped children; their bodies are old, but they think like an adolescent. I never disrespect them, BUT I speak firmly to them, giving them clear instructions on what they need to change, and I make them acknowledge what is expected of them. They have to promises to change the behavior. Give them a chance. If they don't change, or if they get worse, have the COR give their position to someone else. Also, be prepared to take on two roles at once just to keep the unit running. NOTE: There is also a Unit Commissioner for your troop, but my luck with them have been hit (god like knowledge) or miss (another angry adult-child). Contact them vaguely, and see what they have to say. You can also reach out to the District Commissioner. Their email should be on the District homepage.

ALL of us here have this problem qwazse! That's why we're STILL in Scouting. All jokes aside, reading the following posts actually caused me to tear up for a sec. Fighting for democracy in a private club has been awful, many times. I have huge respect for this site, and I thank you all for being honest, informative, knowledgeable, and passionate. It feels good to be chatting with like dedicated individuals. I have found that kindness sells in Scouting. People stick around where they feel welcomed, and helpful. On the flip side, bad scouters have perfected gentrification; driving out their opposition. -Like yelling at new parents will somehow grow scouting? Collectively, we all can piece together what's wrong with the culture of the BSA just through these threads alone. The hard choice is whether to be difficult back at the rule violators, or not. For me it's easy. The elitists have driven our District into the ground, so there's hardly nothing left. I, as a lone member, am making my own "district" to support the few packs that are left. Two board members, a chair, and a secretary not does a district make. -No matter how much money their employers donate. -I should really document my efforts.

The referred Whistle blower policy is only for employees. A volunteer who does it will only have their report sent back down the chain of command and the volunteer will find themselves out of the Council by the next year. There's no protections for volunteers re retaliation. Even worse if the violator is a District level volunteer. They can do all kind of wrongs, and as long as their employer is willing to donate a few grand to the Council, the bad scouter will keep getting promoted. -From first hand knowledge. National is so deep in the red that only green counts. If your area doesn't have a super grown-up looking out for everybody, the adult-children will bully anyone they feel like. I'm especially sad thinking about all the single moms who got crapped on by little men with weak minds. The BSA should have something to address the many topics addressed here. As said earlier, even if there is something in writing, at least a parent would have something to show the offending scouters. As the policies sit now, having nothing allows the BSA to keep being a good-ole-boy club. I only hope the new influx of moms, generated by the acceptance of girls into the BSA, will eventually get a policy in place to protect the weakest of our volunteer ranks: single mothers of color. I absolutely love the new YPT training! Don't get me wrong, I love the "program." It is the organization that I wish would stop letting us down.

I'm finding that there's a generational issue contributing to the decline of Scouting. I broadly refer to it as the "Me" generation. These adult-children run the program mainly for themselves, their kids, and their friends. They create a class structure of haves vs havenots. A new scout parent will probably leave after being yelled at (by a parent they hardly know) because they did something wrong (usually trivial), because they didn't know (no training given to them). On the other hand.. My boy will turn off the game console when it's time to go to Scouts. His choice. (His Troop had no social class structure) That tells me that when you give new families a great program, they will stay in it. They also tend to attract new families. Conclusion: Good environments won't save Scouting, but it will grow Units. -And I can live with that.