FireStone

Is there any mention of a suggested replacement for these costumes/ceremonies? I'm actually ok with not using Native American costumes, but I'm still completely confused as to what the symbolism of the OA will become if we're supposed to remove some of the NA regalia. The OA is deep in symbolism and Native American imagery plays heavily into that. If we start removing some of that stuff, it has to be replaced with something else, otherwise OA just becomes another bland honor society.

The "Scouts BSA" name isn't the problem. Or, in my opinion, I don't think the courts will rule that it's a problem. There's a long precedent of the BSA using the term "Scouts" in isolation, and GSUSA doing the same. I don't think GSUSA can win the argument that the BSA shouldn't be allowed to use the term "Scouts" in marketing directed at girls. That just seems like a majorly flawed position. What they do have a leg to stand on, though, is the local confusion in terminology, poorly-worded flyers and marketing materials, etc. Which is why we're now seeing that helpful infographic being circulated explaining how and how not to refer to BSA programs, to not refer to GSUSA, etc. That's probably something the BSA should have gotten ahead of sooner, one of the many problems that cropped up in pushing out these program changes so quickly without sharing enough information with local units well-ahead of those changes. What will be interesting to me is related to my earlier comment about whether or not the BSA would be held liable for what local units were doing, erroneously putting out flyers that read "girl scouts" or "girl scout troops".

Now that I think about it more, I would suggest (strongly encourage even) that you talk to parents before giving anything to your scouts. Some parents might prefer to be the ones to give their son/daughter their first pocketknife. I rehabbed my old Swiss Army knife to almost like-new condition and I've held on to it for longer than my son has been on this earth, with the intention of handing it to him next year as his first knife. And if someone else came along at a den meeting and handed my son his first knife before that, I'd be kind of annoyed.

Go back more than 5 years and in most cases we'd be able to say that not much has changed. But today, yeah, things have changed a bit. 😉 I think it's ridiculous to expect scouts to memorize the Oath now. At least at the younger ranks. Ideally scouts would be able to do it from memory, but good luck with that for Tigers, Wolves, etc. I have a Wolf Den of 10 scouts, 2 of which I know can do the Oath all the way through from memory. It's something we practice and work on, but it shouldn't be drilled into the kids. Besides, officially it's no longer required that they memorize it. Bears and certainly Webelos I might expect to have it nailed down, but just consider the age/rank of the kids you're working with. Easy solution if you have other leaders intent on memorization: Point it out in the book where it says "Learn and say the Scout Oath, with help if needed." Of the adult leaders in my Pack, two of us are Eagle Scouts, I'm one of them. I get the occasional joke about how something should be easy for me or I should already know how to do something because I'm an Eagle. And my response is always the same. Having gone through the program before and being an Eagle Scout gives you almost no advantage when you sign up as an adult volunteer. Basically it just means you know how to camp and probably already know the Oath and Law. That's it. Everything else is learning things new, especially at the Cub level and learning how to herd cubs. Does your Pack use Scoutbook? I know not all units use it yet, but I've heard it's going to pretty much become mandatory, if it isn't already. Maybe you can encourage your Pack to get on board with using Scoutbook to track advancement so that it's easier for everyone to know where each Scout is in terms of completed requirements. My Pack uses it and it's great, if everyone keeps up with it. I can log in and see where any scout is at with advancement, if they were at the last meeting, how many times they've gone camping, etc. But it only works if most or all of the leaders commit to keeping records up to date.

I can kind of get why there have been problems in talking about girls at the troop level. It's too easy to just roll into the phrase "girl scouts" after being so used to saying "boy scouts" for so long. Even if we're not saying GSUSA, inadvertently saying girl scouts (not Girl Scouts) seems almost natural, even if it is wrong. At the Cub Scout level it shouldn't even be an issue. And I suspect it's not really, since most of the examples in the lawsuit point to Scouts BSA level marketing and recruiting. For Packs, the real brand equity is in the name "Cub Scouts", and there's no logical reason why anyone would replace that name with "Girl Scouts". Even accidentally, I see no reason why any adults at the Pack level would end up erroneously putting "girl scouts" into a flyer or on a web page. You'd almost have to really be going out of your way to avoid saying "Cub Scouts" just to write "girl scouts" instead, when "Cub Scouts" is really the name you'd want people to see and recognize.

There's not much in the $6 price range that will be of decent enough quality that I'd personally trust it to not result in injury. It does look like an Swiss Army with a can opener runs around $21 on Amazon (the Tinker, ironically cheaper without the BSA branding on it). Have you spoken to parents about this yet? I would imagine some (maybe most) would be willing to spend $21 on a knife for their kid if it's good quality and will last. My first Swiss Army knife is still in great shape today, some 30 years later, given to me by my father and I'll be giving it to my son next year when he is a Bear.

I browsed through the Examples section, to see the examples of flyers/materials/marketing that use confusing language. Although I still don't agree with the lawsuit, broadly speaking, the examples are jarring. What were these Packs/Troops/Councils thinking? "Come talk to me about the Girl Scouts BSA Troops forming in Kirkland!" "We will be forming a Girl Scout Troop in February." "Girl Scout Volunteer Opportunity" Using the Girl Scouts slogan in marketing materials. Using quotes from Juliette Gordon Low in OFFICIAL BSA marketing materials. 😧 Come on, people. Be a little smarter about how you word things.

Is it really possible that because of some local miscommunication this whole lawsuit has emerged? Kind of fascinating that this is even possible. Surely there has to be some kind of protection for the BSA organization from local volunteers going rogue. Can the national org really get sued for a volunteer putting bad info on a facebook page or google doc?

Congratulations to Zach on his Iowa state senate win. Regardless of what anyone thinks of his politics, it's great to see an Eagle Scout rising in public service.

I've actually made the opposite argument in my Pack. I'm an Eagle and it has not prepared me at all for herding Cub Scouts. 😁

Badges aren't going away so t-shirts don't seem practical. Unless you're suggesting that we do away with badges, too.

Closer to what local units are selling, but I'm not sure it's what the BSA actually wants us to be selling anymore. I've long suspected that emphasis on uniforms was being reduced. I struggle with this often, being my Pack's recruitment/marketing/promotions guy. The stuff I get from BSA, the photos, flyers, marketing materials, it all looks quite a bit different from what daily life in the Pack looks like. I mean, the activities are there, but the look and feel of it is substantially different. And I know it puts some parents off. We got some negative reactions to doing a non-sectarian prayer recently at the close of a campfire. I've heard comments about our flag ceremonies being "very military-like", and apparently not in a way that some parents like. The uniforms (especially at the Scouts BSA level) definitely have a military look to them. That's day-to-day stuff for us locally, but nationally you won't see much (or any) of that stuff in the marketing materials.

I've suspected for a while now that the uniform might become less and less a priority in the BSA. Seems like it's already happening, based on what I've seen out of National, more people wearing just the neckerchief in the UK style (friendship knot), marketing materials and photos showing scouts in casual attire more often, etc. So it kind of doesn't matter what we think of uniform standards, as they are likely changing as we speak.

I've heard/read similar things over the years and I've never understood it, how a single adult leader can essentially do as they please and district is powerless to do anything about it. I get the whole "CO owns the unit" thing, but we're all still administering the BSA program here, and it's amazing that the BSA (at the district level) really can't do much sometimes to enforce the methods of the program. For all of the rules and regulations we have, at the end of the day it seems like any of us can do whatever we want when it comes to how we dish out the program. It's no wonder we have current threads on the subject of parent interference. Adults at all levels of involvement seem bent on doing things their own unique way, and if they know they can get away with it, what's to prevent this kind of behavior in the future? Seems likely it will only get worse.

I kind of always assumed that most Packs had their "official" roster of leadership positions and then there was the "unofficial" one that was closer to reality. CM is also a DL, DL works with more than one Den, etc. In my Pack (and I suspect a lot of Packs) there would just not be any way to sustain the program without some multi-position overlap. Does that go against what the BSA says we are supposed to do? Sure. But the alternative is that we have Dens without DLs or we don't have a CM.

The curriculum may not be but the NRA certainly is, and they don't keep their political views out of their involvement in the BSA. Here's a sampling of the materials that NRA members send home with scouts: If it were just about providing good universal curriculum, I'd have no issue with it. But because of stuff like this, along with the NRA's highly political agenda, I'd personally prefer to see the BSA end their relationship with the NRA.

Family Scouting just came up as a real thing in the BSA lexicon within the last year. How could it already be a factor in the Patrol Method? We've been seeing difficulties with maintaining the Patrol Method for years, decades even. And Family Scouting is hardly a factor in most Troops yet, at least as far as I can see around my area. Not a lot of siblings and moms going on any camping trips yet. Just seems like the timeline doesn't fit for blaming Family Scouting on any of the BSA's problems these days.

If the Patrol Method is dead in any unit, it was dying long before Family Scouting got here. Units I see today still effectively using the Patrol Method are doing so because they fostered a PM culture over many years and continue to do so. Units that stop using PM likely had other barriers to continuing on with it long ago. I don't know they story with your local unit(s), but as a possibly over-generalized comment I think blaming Family Scouting for the woes of any particular unit's shortcomings or failures is a cop-out. Patrol Method has been a struggle to maintain for many units for decades. Units that wanted to keep it going have done so, in spite of the hurdles. Blaming Family Scouting, a programing initiative that is primarily focused on the Cub level, for any failure of the Patrol Method seems misplaced.

It might just be sheer luck that I wasn't one of those Eagle Scouts. If premarital sex is a disqualifier for Eagle, I guess I should turn in my medal. I agree with previous sentiments, that it should be more about how Scouts respond to their circumstances. Do they take responsibility for their decisions? Do they do what is necessary to handle those responsibilities?

I wish that were the way it could always be. But the heavy emphasis on the importance of YPT these days makes it seem like there is very little room for us to do anything to correct any kind of behavior without always asking ourselves if we're operating within YPT guidelines. The good thing about our current YPT program is that it is structured in a way that makes it hard for us to forget about it. The bad thing about YPT is that it's structured in a way that makes it hard for us to forget about it, even in situations where maybe we didn't really need to think about it in the first place.

My Pack's policy is that if an adult is willing to take on the considerable time and effort to be a volunteer, the least the Pack can do in return is cover the dues.

Outstanding news, glad to hear they are giving these girls the chance to join and earn all the way to Eagle. Not going to lie, I might tear up a bit if I get to see Sydney Ireland wearing an Eagle medal. 😥 That girl deserves it, she's shown bravery and scout spirit above and beyond.

Heartbreaking story about the Seneca Valley boy. And the absolute failure of the school administrators to do anything about it afterward. That boy is essentially given a life sentence, he'll never be able to completely free himself of the false accusations, and his entire high school experience is forever marred by this. Meanwhile the girls get off without even a school disciplinary measure. The boys parents hands are tied, they have to file this lawsuit, even though I suspect they really don't want to. Their son has been through so much, if it were me I'd rather the nightmare end as soon as possible. But if no one else will do anything about it, what choice do they have? Personally I'm glad that women feel more emboldened today to discuss real assault and abuse. I support the intent of the "Me too" movement and at the core what it aims to do. However, although "Me too" can be a force for good it can clearly also be used as a weapon against the innocent. We need to find a fair balance in all of this and ensure that what was set out as a noble movement doesn't end up doing more harm than good.

I'm glad the clipping corners thing is gone. I never liked that a mistake was permanently marked on something that a Scout should be proud to have earned. We don't permanently mark anything else in the scouting world because of a mistake, even a safety mistake, so I never understood the need to do so with these cards. I wouldn't hesitate to take a knife from a scout if a major safety violation is witnessed. I don't care what the official policy is on that, I think safety supersedes all else and until the issue can be adequately dealt with by whoever needs to deal with it (probably DL first), the situation needs to be made safe for all.

Excellent points, I'm flush with notes on good responses now. And I like the idea of inviting the complainers to run the derby next year, until one of them takes me up on it and then changes all the rules. That Bryan article is excellent.