Buffalo Skipper

As a former Cubmaster (and committed race official), I have seen it all. From airburshed lacquers (automotive quality paints), to out of the can sprays, to nail polish, water colors (you know the cheap kit with the trays) to magic markers---everything! If it works, it works! This is all about the boys and the boys having fun and being proud of what they have done. If they can be satisified with watercolors, then God bless them! Highly refined paint and finish does not make a car go faster.

I have a skill related question for the group. I have a flint and steel kit, but I am having a real time trying to make a spark. I can get a small one every 15th-20th strike, and a medium to large one about every 50th-75th. I have seen others make plentiful sparks with every strike (making this look easy). Any suggestions on how to do this? My goal is to be practiced and proficient so I can really pass this on to the scouts. I am also looking into fire by friction (stick and bow techniques) and finally fire pistons. Thoughts?

Funny. Just Sunday night, I did a Google search for Woodruff photos and came across the utube video. I did not realize it was so fresh. Great stuff! Thanks.

What the patrols in our troop did/do most often is to use a "Vexillum" (Like a Roman Legion standard); that is a pole (7') with a cross member near the top and a the flag hangs down. That way it is easily seen and read. The standards are have them about 2.5'- 3' across, draping down as much as the patrol likes. They generally use a folded piece of muslin (the thin stuff is cheap), with a small dowel in the "hem" at the top and 4-8 (small) brass grommets just below that. They use leather thongs to tie them on to the cross member. For more on vexillums, see http://www.legionxxiv.org/signum/ One of our old patrols (now defunct) was the Shark patrol. Their flag was stout fising pole with a 1' set of sharks' teeth permanently affixed with a stout, bent fishing hook. It was really cool! (we still have it in the QM closet)

Yes, it was "Green Bar," and not NYLT. I know this because I also sit on the Council Program Committee, and we had the discussion about establishing an NYLT program in the council at last month's meeting. The Lodge Advisor was sitting right next to me, and he expressed his concern about scheduling it too close to the OA's Green Bar, and was concerned that Troops would choose one over the other. It was obvious he saw these as two different programs. The Council PD, on the other hand was going on about how this (NYLT) was to be done, and discussed a process and program completely unlike what the OA was presenting. Our council has never offered (other than the OA's Green Bar) any youth leadership training program that I have seen. Though I continue to be grateful that our district and council remains free much of the infighting I read about here and on other sites, I have found that many in our council remain in the dark about change taking place around them. We do have a unique dynamic around here. We have a "new" program director, who came in armed with a tremendous amount of knowledge of other programs, and I pick his brain at every opportunity. (Prior to his appointment, we had never had a program director) (This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

OK. I hear yall going back and forth about this. Kudu, I know what you have said here, but lets say you have a successful troop (by modern BSA expectations); how do you make the transition? My point is, how do you get the scouts who have worked with this program for one to five years make this adjustment and change their way of thinking? Admittedly, I am one of those who, as you suggested see it as WAY too easy to OVERTHINK this process, with all the TLT, JLT, NYLT, NAYLE and all the other leadership management stuff out there. Interestingly, our OA lodge runs an annual Green Bar weekend, but of late it has become overshadowed by the Merit Badges which have begun being offered as part of the Green Bar Weekend. On the flip side, our council has never offered a NYLT, or other leadership training (at the Boy Scout level).

Our district has a unique way of handling our Camporees. We run and SPL Roundtable (concurrent with Cub Scout and Boy Scout Roundtables and Venturing Forums). The purpose of the SPL-RT is two fold. First, it is an opportunity for SPLs (and ASPLs) to interact and communicate (just like other RTs), but second, and what has taken on a life of its own, these participating SPLs plan and run the District Camporee. Since participation at Camporees is by patrol, the SPLs are free to organize and run the events. This, in part, guarantees that troops participate, and in fact, make them want to participate, because they help plan what they want to do. We did this for last year's Spring Camporee and again this Spring (the past fall Council Encampment was run by the OA and was also a big hit). I sat in on last month's SPL-RT, and this will be a really cool camporee in April.

We had a very unique situation in our Pack with a boy we'll call "Steve." Steve's father was killed (US Navy fighter pilot--carrier accident) before he was born. After several years his mother dated and moved in with a man. Because the father was killed in action, they will lose benefits if the mother's boyfriend (call him "John") marries and adopts her children. He is, in reality, the only "father" they have ever known. He is in fact, a vet, and their "family" portrait hangs in the lobby of his hospital. John is filling the role of "father" for Steve (and doing 100 times as good a job as many other dads in the pack!), so should you deny Steve the chance to participate with John on a father-son campout or similar activity? Certainly this situation may be described as atypical, and prehaps even as extrordinary, but such an argument can be made for many unusual situations in this day and age.

Interesting that this should come up this weekend. While our older scouts were off on an independent hike (see the "Patrol Backpacking" thread), our younger scouts were struggling at our base camp with their meals--one patrol took 1 hour and 45 minutes to fix breakfast and clean their dishes. Also coincidentally, the PLC has planned "cooking" as this month's theme, giving us a unique opportuntiy to focus on these skills at the needed time. With what had happened over the weekend, I talked with the other leaders (adults) on the cause of this, and I think this has a lot to do with our unique troop dynamic. We have 5 scouts who are Star/Life and are 16 or 17. We have one scout who is 15 and one who is 14. Then we have 8 scouts who are 13 or 12. There appears to have been a disconnect between these older and younger scouts and so few inbetween (currently 8th-9th grade), so they have not learned by the natural rote of things, with scouts of one age passing their skills on the next year's "class." Talking to the SPL on the drive home, he agreed that it will be good to have the patrols prepare, cook and clean-up 4 meals at the meetings over the next month. With some concerted direction, the PLC will be showing them the ropes, on prep and cleaning. The PLC's plan is to have every meal at the next campout be a part of a cooking contest. With what has been included in this topic, I think I will encourage the SPL to have the PLs assign duty rosters for these meetings/meals to have the patrols get in the habit of using this resource. I actually read all the above posts and took notes on what I wanted to suggest to the SPL and PLC on how to help improve these scouts skills and organization.

Well, we had our hiking outing this weekend, and our older scouts spend 2 days on their own without us. The did great! They used a trail shelter the first night, which saved them time packing tents and camp, so they got an early start. Rain the second evening made their meal a challenge, but they had all done that before so no problems. We met them at the exit point and they were all walking with a quiet swagger in their step. You could see it was a milestone for them. This is a good thing for our troop and it's (scout) leaders....

OK, I am game to listen, but what is ACA, and what types of camps do they "certify"? What is their background and credentials? Obviously, if this stirs up SEs, then there is some reason for contention here. I am neither a camp inspector nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night; however three of my closest friends are inspectors, so I hear quite a bit about camp inspections and the process from their perspective.

Thanks to you all. ASM857, what/where is "S-F"? I assume most everyone knows the Philmont Grace, but is there one for Northern Tier? Any others?

It is always to have that kind of "Aha-ha" moment! I hope our scouts do as well when we have our Webelos visit in 3 weeks.

Great topic! I feel strongly about Webelos Recruiting. I agree to the idea of "poaching" being recriting with what you cannot deliver. Our troop has had an interesting experience last year (2007-8). We had one small but active Webelos 2 den, and they were excited about coming to our troop. They had come camping with the troop in October. As the Cubmaster (and troop committee member), I was trying to subtly steer the boys into the troop, and I believe it was working. Come December, I caught wind of the fact that a neighboring troop had mailed to all area Webelos parents a flyer inviting them to their Troops end of year court of honor. This other troop's COR had earned his Eagle in our troop back in 1990, but he is a Power Point guru, and I knew he would woo and swoon all over our Webelos. By chance, our Court of Honor was scheduled for the same night, and I worked hard to get our troop's advancement coordinator to invite these Webelos to our CoH. Unfortunatley, she regarded my sense of urgency as frivolous and paranoid, refusing to invite them as she felt we were unprepared. As predicted, this entire den went to the other troop. This other troop is large and well funded. Every summer they alternate between Philmont and Northern Tier. Between Christmas and new year, they sent one contingent to Northern Tier for winter camp and another to Sea Base. They have a tremendous high adventure program, and I never really saw this a "poaching," since they deliver on what they promissed. The troop committee, however, can be very heavy handed with the PLC. In order to combat this, I organized a complete presentation at roundtable on Webelos recruiting which covered separate presentations to the Cub Scout, Boy Scout and SPL groups, giving more troops the tools to recruit on a more vigerous level. It was also the basis for the Webelos Fun Day which the troop conducted (3 of the 7 dens who participated in our WFD were from this other troop's feeder pack, but their leaders are personal friends of mine).

I really enjoyed a reading the grace from Camp Sheppard, and it got me thinking. The only grace I have ever taught my children is the Philmont Grace. We have started to learn the Sea Base Blessing, and here is a wonderful blessing from Camp Sheppard. How about we all pitch in with a blessing specifically from camps around the country (or world). Please include the camp from which the blessing hails. I'll begin with the Sea Base Blessing: Bless the creatures of the Sea Bless this person I call me Bless the Keys you made so grand Bless the sun that warms the land Bless the fellowship we feel As we gather for this meal Amen I will collect these in a document which eventually I would like to publish back to the web. Any takers?

I believe the "catch" here is where the BSA Guidelines refer to "backcountry" and "trek." I have spoken to our council's Program Director who informed me of the definitions of both these words. "Backcountry" refers to any area in which access to medical care is restricted (this would, therefore include canoe trips with limited public access, but not necessarily backpacking, if there were multiple easy access points to the trail). "Trek," he said, refers to any excursion of 5 days or more. He answered this in the context of patrol solo events, thus I accept this as a guileline covered by council insurance. On the other hand (and mostly unrelated but what the original discussion was about), I will likely deny the patrol the opportunity to hike alone on this one, but not for any of the above reasons. It appears (not confirmed) that only 2 or 3 of the patrol will be able to attend this activity. I cannot justify the safety of an expedition with this number--I would expect 4 as a minimum. We will find out tonight. Thank you all for your input. With what on the forum and the information I received from my PD, I feel I have the knowledge to make a decision of this matter now and in the future. I will work with the younger patrols to see that they are prepared and can plan for patrol camping in both the near and far future.

Well, we had our Webelos Fun Day on Saturday. We had been watching the weather closely; there was a threat of rain (cold front) which was expected to move through that evening, but it looked good for the morning. Right before the WFD began (9:00 am), a shield of showers sprung up on the radar, and soaked everything. I would say it washed us our, but we had were conducting this right beside a church building which was large enough to move most everything inside. It was our planned backup. I really pushed our SPL to prepare, setup, and run everything. I have run many of these events (day camps, camporees, and sea scout regattas), and I could have done it with my eyes closed. The SPL resisted organizing things in advance, and put off everything until the last minute on Saturday morning. In spite is this, in the end he executed the program near flawlessly. We were short a couple of scouts, and we reorganized and dropped one event (no big deal). The end result was that we had 25 webelos show up from 3 packs and 7 dens. We were hoping for double those numbers, but we will take what we got. Everyone had a great time, webelos and scouts alike. We even got compliments from all the webelos den leaders, some of whom are registered ASMs and CMs in other troops. The troop spent about $30.00 on ribbons, $50.00 on lunch, and about $45 on promotional items and supplies. We don't yet know how many of these scouts will actually join the troop, but there are several dens are coming back for a troop visit early next month. In the meantime, we do have several hard commitments. I believe that 5 dens from 2 large packs did not show because they were scared we would recruit their cubs to troops other than their own. I am debating exactly how to prevent this, as our scouts are already talking about how they can make the event better next year.

Down to Four and a half hours?!?!? I'd be looking for a new PACK!!!!! What do you have, a parade, carnival, magic show, wrestling match, 2 meals and a movie presentation? I've seen complete Shakespear productions which weren't that long! We have shortened ours to about 1 1/2 hours including the meal, FOS and award presentations. We start at 6:00 pm and wrap up by 7:30. All that and we have a very elaborate slide show. The families have a great time. But the Tigers can barely sit still for that long. Someone is really missing the point here.

Stosh, I have never really seen this as an issue. What I have seen locally (and with our pack) is that any troops "receiving" crossovers are invited to serve and assist with the Blue & Gold in general. Ceremonies vary from pack to pack (or den to den), and may affect who is where. Around here, the OA often does the crossover ceremony, and they and the pack have the biggest say on how things are done (not the troop). The OA ceremony generally had the Webelos crossing the bridge, stopping in the middle, saluting the Cubmaster and walking across (followed by parents) to the reciving troop. Usually it is the Scoutmaster who shakes his hand, and the SPL who remove his Webelos neckerchief and blue Cub Scout epilates to be replaced with the Boy Scout green epilates. Most troops also place the new neckerchief on the scout, but our troop's neckerchiefs are only presented after the scout camps with the troop. For those Webelos who have attended a campout with the troop, this is done at crossover (otherwise none is adorned at this time). If the Webelos are crossing over as a den or with dens from other packs to be forming a new scout patrol, then being received by a PL seems less necessary. Likewise, if the new scouts will be "absorbed" into existing patrols, it is unlikely that these new boys will have had a chance to commit in advance to one patrol or another; again, making the receiving PL somewhat moot. The Scoutmaster is (ultimately) responsible for the new scouts, not the SPL or PLs. This "perception" is reinforced to the Webelos parents, whether accurate or not. Just my $.02.

Yesterday's email bucket had a notice from our council which included (amongst other sundry items) the following statement: "Effective January 1, 2009, when filling out Tour Permits, at least one adult must have completed Planning and Preparing for Hazardous Weather training. Local Tour Permit #34426" This is a non-issue for our troop, as several of our leaders have already completed this training. I finished it the first week it was on line. Good course. Some items are quite irrelevant, just as some which apply to us do not to other areas. In spite of this I did feel it was good training.

Kudu, Thanks for that info. I sure hope I can instill in our scouts the leadership and responsiblilty to handle patrol outings like the ones you described. My use of the word "far" was intended to be figurative, rather than literal. I have full confidence in out Venture Patrol's ability to do the hike they have planned (29 miles in 2.5 days) on a recognized trail. My question is at what point does it cease to be a "patrol" activity and start being a "backcountry" activity (which requires adult supervision). I dislike the necessity to act as a SM in a "legal" capacity. These type of activities are where I want to go with the troop as I continue to rebuild our program. I just wanted to ensure we are following the G2SS, and that all of our T's are crossed and I's are dotted.

My understanding of the term "backcoutry" refers to areas off the trail. Any developed trail, as an example with set primitive campsites, would not be considered "backcountry." Does anyone else agree (or disagree) with this interpretation?

Thanks for the info, everyone! What is happening is that we have 3 adults accompanying our troop on out "long" hike over MLK weekend. Our younger scouts will be running out of a base camp and our older scouts have planned a longer, thru hike on the Suwannee section of the Florida Trail. With only 3 adults, the scouters cannot break into 2 groups (as it would leave a group with only 1 and that violates YP). It is an easy trail, and I have hiked with these scouts on numerous occasions, and I have no doubt that they can handle it (older scouts are 14-17 years old). I am doing this more to save the weekend for the older scouts than anything else, but I believe it will be a real confidence booster for the scouts. The PLC has always planned their hiking routes with close adult encouragement ("That trail is real steep, do you have enough time for that," or "look at your trail heads...is that good logistics?" and such). This is a new area which we have never hiked before, but it is real straight forward; the are unlike to encounter any substantial obstacles. We looked at several routes, and they choose the one they wanted to do. They choose a route which will end up in our base camp the morning we leave. This weekend is traditional for our troop to have a long hike, and the olders scouts always go in a separate, longer, more challenging route--but always accompanied by 2 or 3 adults. Several of our leaders have had serious health issues this year or have schedule conflicts. Maybe this is a real blessing in disguise, setting up our older boys to have their own weekend. Should there be a separate permisson slip for these scouts recognizing that they will be on a patrol outing without direct adult supervision? And is there anything else about which we should be aware?

OK, spinning off the AT hike comments, I have a question about backpacking as a patrol. Patrols can hike and patrols can camp outside of troop activities (and without adult supervision). How far can this be taken as a patrol activity? If the "troop" were setting up a base camp, and different patrols were day hiking, could the older scouts (Venture patrol) do a backpack outing as a patrol?

Barry, I believe you summed up your post extremely well. Before I took over as SM, I worked (and continue to do so) to help scouts follow the MB program which BSA intends to happen. I have a large crop of younger scouts, and we hope to get our troop back on this track. Thanks for the great post.