Buffalo Skipper

All great answers. Thank you for what you have posted, and keep it coming. This whole thing started over an email conversation I was having about ways I do not measure success, and it got me thinking. I do not measure success by the number of First Year--First Class scouts. I do not measure success by the number of Eagles. I do not measure success by the number of boys in a troop, or the distance we travel to summer camp or the number of times we camp throughout the year. And I could add dozens of things here, which would certainly spark more discussion. The past week or 10 days, I have held SM conferences with several Webelos who are crossing to the troop. I asked them all what they expect from the boy scouts. Without exception (my own son included), they replied that they wanted to have fun. By the 5th conference, I was expecting to hear this and was not disappointed. Certainly there are many ways to clarify "having fun," but I can think of few measuring sticks which would stand against "having fun."

During the first weekend of Wood Badge, we ate in the dining hall. Before every meal, we chanted a hearty chorus of "God Bless the Chefs!" The same applies to the summer camp cook staffs, in fact even more so! I may drop a bug in our SPLs ear before camp to have some special treat for the cook staff.....

Here's a new topic. What single element is the best way to measure success in a Boy Scout troop? This may be a bit of a lively discussion, so let me make one request of the group. I am really looking for single item. Not that everyone will agree on the same thing, but please conclude your posts with one thing that stands out to you.

AoL is not a requirement to join Boy Scouts. Not exactly. A boy (or even a cub scout)need not earn the Arrow of Light to join Boy Scouts. He must be 11 years old orhave completed the 5th grade. Or he may have earned the Arrow of Light (reading between the line, he must be10.5 years old.) The AoL optionqualifies under 11 year old 5th graders (who have presumably been introduced tobasic scouting skills) to join a Boy Scout troop. This again embodies the argument, if one has completed the AoL, why hang out with the cubbies when you are allowed and able to hang out with the Boy Scouts?

Our troop is also looking for poles (trees) for lashing. We are in an area where there are common stands of cypress. This wood is lightweight, strong, and rot resistant; the fact that the trees grow straight is a real plus. Through our CO (church) and other related sources, we are looking for about a dozen or more straight trees with a diameter of 2-4". We have a line on a few trees here and there, and hope to have something cut and readied in a few weeks. But I am curious about what other around here use. One of our scouts saw a lashing project from "prepared" lumber (2x2s). He came up to the scoutmaster, pointed to the troop, and asked, "Where did they find those square trees to cut?"

SeaGull, I am sorry to hear that your son (and you) have had such an experience with scouting. While I commend you for your decision to find a different troop, I know it is not an easy task. I wish you the best in finding a good unit. Please keep us informed of your progress, and work to keep your son's head and sprits up.

Looking at Hal's post on the National Capital Council's follow-up press release, I got confused. But I just re-read the original press release from national, and it all seems to be fitting together. Goshen Scout Reservation (which will still remain a council run reservation) will be the new permanent home of the National Jamboree. And there is to be a new High Adventure base in West Virginia. But the remarks on the new National Scouting Center were not made to associate it directly with either of these locations. I had taken it to be that the National Scouting Center was to be a year round facility at the permanent site of the National Jamboree, and that is just not what it says. I am going to guess that the NSC will likely be connected to the high adventure base, just as Philmont Training Center is connected to Philmont Scout Ranch. But that is just speculation. Regardless, this is all in the planning and contract negotiation stages. There are many details which still have to be worked out, and it may be a year or longer before we learn all that is planned. Admittedly, I am still most courious about the West Virgina High Adventure Base. Has anyone heard any more about this?(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

Stosh, I certainly understand the difference between instruments. My best friend growing up was the district first chair trumpet, but played the flugelhorn. I had just not seen a bugle like the one I saw today--truly beatiful. I am really looking forward to talking to our scout about being a bugler. He this is his first year playing, and I expect the experience to be more of a benefit to him than the troop at first. I do think it would be great at summer camp to have the bugler sound the calls in our campsite (for all other troops to hear!). Just so long as we don't find a scout who tries to play the calls on his harmonica, we will all be all right.

We also use the Perfect-N-Type computer generated schedule for our pack, but we only run one age at a time (never 100 at once). With a 4 lane track, we can run 2 dens totalling 15 boys in about 20 minutes, each boy runs in each lane once. Given 1 hour for each group, we can then run a second round (with every boy running 4X). We will advance the best 4 to the finals. Every boy gets to run their car 8x, and the best get an additional 4 runs. In smaller age brackets, we can sometimes get in 4 rounds before the finals, so every car gets to run 16/20 times. We have no problems with this at all. As much as I like this method, it does not apply to all racing situations. Our district has run the races of 80-120 cars double-elimination (without paper/computer tracking) and runs this sized race in 50-60 minutes. Much depends upon the number of lanes being used. This example was on a 3 lane track. Using 4 lanes would slow the process down considerably, but the youth would be able to race more. It's all a matter of trade offs. At the district level, the cars have already won on the pack level so even if they only get 2 runs it is not so devistating.

I attended a funeral this morning for a veteran. There was an Army bugler playing taps. I could not get a good look at his bugle, but it was silver and larger than the "cavalry" ones of which we often think. As a veteran myself, I would have apporached him following the service, but I was traveling with co-workers and did not have the time. He skill on the instrument was exquisite, and its tone was wonderful. Most moving.

There are several ways to do this. One is to run the whole race in which cars must have lost twice in order to be eliminated--all the way to the finals. Any car that loses once is in the "losers bracket" (or "challengers bracket" to be more polite). To do this perfectly, you would need to use only a 2 lane track, which is extremely time consuming, and even then only definatively ranks the 1st and 2nd car. Alternately, this process can be followed with more lanes, but once the final 4 (or 3) are detmined, then have a race off with those, alternating lanes until one car is clearly the winner. This system is good, as it does not require timely brackets, computer enteries and such. (Very important in a district level race with 80-120 cars!). It is good to record the final rounds on an overhead or bulletin board, to clearly determine which car is 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. We do not use double-elinination at the Pack level, as we are "small" enough (5-15 cars in a race) to run multiple computer races and finish with a finals. In larger races, I feel that d-e is the most effective method.

I think the location is excellent. That is not to say Goshen, VA is excellent, but if you make that area the center of a 500 mile radius circle (roughly the distance for a local tour permit), it covers a significant amount of the nation's large population centers. This was not a stipulated requirement, but I would be surprised if it was not taken into consideration. Not to knock the WestCoasties, but there are very few areas out west where such a circle would include more than 2 or 3 similar sized large population areas. And as was posted earlier, Philmont is more west than east. Applying the same logic, I am actually more curious about the High Adventure base. Details like what exactly in the 2-county area are being considered, goals of the camp, program, name and target "opening" date. Working with a young troop, I would hope this would be ready to go by the time most are 14-15. That would be an experience for the boys--to go the first year!

I have always read this as Guy suggests. We have a 2 boys who joined my son's Webelos den in August. In November they received their Webelos badge (3 months in the den), and this month will receive their AoL (3 months since earning the Webelos Badge). They will then cross to the troop. Seems obvious to me, but I can see where the wording may be misread.

I really like the idea of a button hole. They are not hard to stitch with a good sewing machine. One of our soon to crossover webelos parents does custom embroidery. I will have to ask if she can do this....

I was asking about the cost of a bugle because I do have a scout who owns and plays the trumpet. In fact, he told me he was working on figuring out bugle calls. I know his parents and I do not think they would like him to bring his silver trumpet on a campout. A "cheap" bugle would probably be good for him. From the moment he told me he was working out bugle calls, I have wanted to talk to him about it, but the last two weeks of meetings have been filled Webelos visitors. I just now looked up the Bugling MB requirements online. I will talk to him and drop a hint about the MB, but I will have to find a counselor. I'll be that his band teacher may be able to help out...

SSScout, Are you an engineer or a congressional planner?

Captain, Not being familiar with bugle calls, does each unit have a "call" which would proceed the "instruction"? Also, I have a scout who plays the trumpet and who is interested in learning bugle calls. Do you have any suggestions? What is the cost of an inexpensive bugle?

Actually, he can't do it with or without a committee vote. These are BSA eligibility requirements. Any committee (or committee members) who thinks they can change this are really out of step with the purpose of Boy Scouts. I would really consider joining a different troop. Earlier today I posted this in another topic, but I will repeat, as it is a good resource; some of this information is dated, but the basic ideas presented here are very sound: http://usscouts.org/cubscouts/goodtroop.asp(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

Like John, I agree with Lisa's advice. It is pragmatic, practical, and is not over-the-top. On the other hand, if the SM and CC are kin, and the CC is also an ASM (really out of line with BSA's organizational expections of a troop), then I would not expect this to be worked out in an easy, simple manner. You should begin looking at other troops very soon, and you should expect that changing troops will likely be the best option for your son. If you end up looking for a new troop, I have found the information presented here to be particularly useful, as a general guideline. http://usscouts.org/cubscouts/goodtroop.asp

Gunny, I actually do like the ceremony. They have the OA come out and to the crossover, full regalia, drums--real maaningful stuff. My objection is to the place and timing. This pack has a large troop associated with it. This year the pack will have boys crossing over to 4 troops and the the packs expect all 4 troops to attend. This, along with the 100 or more cubs and parents just makes for a difficult situation. Also, out troop has already make plans and reservations for the same weekend, so we will have to rearrange our schedule to attend. When I spoke to the pack CC, I was told that it is a nice transition opportunity for the parents, to have their boys close the first night out. I say hogwash! First, if the boys are no longer part of the pack, then the parents should not be camping with the pack. Second, if the concern is the parents, I can solve that by talking to the parents before they join. I don't really like the idea of some other pack trying to dicate our troops camping policies "to make the parents feel at ease." Our district also has a March camporee. If our troop were to attend, it would be the first campout with the new scouts. I believe that the first camping experience should be a little less intimidating, and more "typical" than a camporee. My idea is, though, that the troop should be making their spring campouts a positive experience for the new scouts, teaching them skills and getting them used to a patrol and troop. routine. Making their first campout a skill competition in a multi-troop environment where all patrols are packed into a 100' square campout hardly supports this. Fall Camporee? Sure, I am all for this participation. In fact I really like the ideas of this, but not as they cross over.

I really like the February or March thing. In fact, I think it is one of the best things BSA did for Webelos and Boy Scouts. Like Stosh says, this gives the boys 3-4 months of skill building and experience camping before summer camp. Not mature enough? Of course they are not. That's why you want them in late winter to give them the opportunities to mature in the troop by summer camp. Leaving them in an adult led environment with little direction is hardly the place I would expect them to mature magically on their own. As for Pinewood derby and similar activities, packs hold them in late January and the district race is at the beginning of February, making this their last big hurrah before crossing over. I also disagree with the idea of not combining AOL and Crossover. AOL is their qualification to cross to Boy Scouts. To me that is like giving a 16 year passing a drivers test but being told they must wait 3 months before they will be given their license, because they are not ready. As for Webelos "hanging around" after the AOL and not crossing over, well if they have no intention to cross over then why are they in Webelos at all? The purpose of the Webelos program is to prepare cubs for Boy Scouts. I look at this as a 16 year old who had taken driver's ed, passed his driver's test, begin given a car, but leaving it in the driveway because he doesn't really want to drive, he just wanted a license. On the flip side, there are some local packs who have the AOL at the B&G and then have crossover at a pack campout a few weeks later. The troops camp nearby and at the campfire, the boys leave the pack and spend the night with the troop. Parents are left to spend the night with the pack (separate) but a few hundered yards from their boys. I do not really like this idea, but it is what happens. I believe that sometimes pack leadership gets too full of themselves and tries to regulate these boys futures. As a SM, I will take them as they come. Our job is to turn them into young men, not wait until their other leaders say the may become young men. Just my 2c.

Stosh, A couple more questions for you. Just for a frame of reference, how large is your troop and what is its composition (patrols, ages, ranks, etc). With this in mind, how often do you do training, and in what setting do you do the training? Also how long do PLs serve? Assuming long "terms" how often do you have one step down, and how does this affect your "training schedule"?

In the past, we have given either the medals or the patches for participation, with small trophies for 1st/2nd/3rd. This year we found trophies for just over $6.00 each. Small but meaningful. We did patches this year for participation. We also do certificates for: Most Aerodyanamic, Best Paint Job, Most Unusual, etc. These are voted upon by the cubs, but the judges skew the results so one boy does not receive too many awards. It recognizes the non-winners for their hard work.

I would arrange a "resume" for the nominee. I was able to do this for a member of my pack last year by claiming I was updating Packmaster and training records for all leaders and I asked every leader to submit a detailed resume of their scouting history. Of course I recorded this in the computer but it was also sent in to the DAM selection committee. Also included was details about her work with the pack, day camp, and WB staff over the past several years. Unbeknownst to me, I was also nominated and she and I were presented together (2 out of 3 DAMs that year came from the same unit!) On the other hand, this year (serving on the selection committee), there were 2 candidates who were nominated with the from filled out (http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33720.pdf) but there was not one additional word recomending them; these were from the same unit, but absolutely nothing distinguised these from each other or the average scouter. The other candidates, by contrast, had glowing recomendations which someone had prepared, detailing their repeated dedication to their units, the district, and prehaps most importanly to the scouts. (nothing on the DAM nomination form requires district service, but it does distinguish one from the average "unit scouter.") Our selection process was easy, not because we knew the scouters, but because what was written about them really made them stand out and shine. Our selection took less than 30 minutes. I may add here, that we did not present all the awards for which our district was eligible. The two candidates I talked about were so indistinguishable from one another that we were unable to choose one over another, so the last award went unpresented (this is a criticism of the nominator, not the nominatees). Had we received more nominations with good write ups, this would not have been the case. I cannot emphasize enough, that any additional information on a nominee may be the difference between them being selected or pass over.

Eagledad, I was refering to the idea of Venture Patrols. If you have mixed age groups in patrols, and you have VPs, then you have to "pluck" the 14 year olds out of the existing patrols for them to participate in VPs. On the other hand, if you form NSPs and keep them together, then when all the patrol members turn 14 (which is presumably within about a year) then the patrol simply becomes a VP. My point in that was that it may be better to keep a NSP together, rather than divide them up after 6 months or a year. Stosh, Thanks, that is was the key for which I was looking. This was brought up at PLC last night, and they decided to "merge" our two "half-patrols" into one (these mostly consist of the last 2 webelos recruited classes--now 6th and 7th grades--so the age is close with all of them). Likewise, they want to see the crossovers form a NSP, with a good troop guide to mentor them. I intend to begin a new round of training (green bar patrol) once the boys cross over and organize into their patrol. We will see how it works out.