Buffalo Skipper

Beavah, Thanks for a great topic. Ever since I first read it, it had me thinking. And like gwd-scouter, it has been on the edge of my mind for some time. It made me think about how to instill these "higher than minimum" values into the scouts I see every week. I spun off a Scoutmaster minute about this.....

I once discussed this matter with our DE, where someone admitted to a being involved, before this was presented to the council for approval. My understanding is that the backgound check in held in confindence with the Council. In the event that someone's check comes back "cloudy," the Council Exec will inform the IH or COR and they will discuss the matter. This should not go through any other volunteers, as it violates the privacy implied in the signed contract. Likewise, if the is a "cloudy" issue, it is up to the IH/COR to make a determination. For any more severe background issue, the SE would advise that the individual cannot be a registered leader. As such it is the COR who should make the call to the individual informing him of the situation. Again, coming from an experienced DE, I accept this as fact and expect that these are the policies followed within our council, and units.

I did not realize that Eagle007 was talking about Tiak. I was there for a weekend of Powder Horn a year ago. Though the damage from Katrina was extensive, most of the downed trees has been harvested (at a profit to the camp) by logging company shortly after the storm. Several of the camp staff barracks (quonset huts) were destroyed by tree falls, but the weekend I was there, new "portable" building were being delivered (donated by a local police dept, whose main building had been completed). The campsites need clean up, but were in good shape, and the normal permanent buildings appeared to be untouched and in fine shape. Their dining hall was one of the nicest I had seen. Yes the camp took a hit, but I felt that the recovery had been quite successful. As I and others here have said, I do not feel that $225 is too unreasonable, especially if they are working to make camp improvements, as they were last year. You have a great council camp. Support it!

Woodruff, where we are going this year, charges $250, which is only a few $$$ more than we have paid at other nearby camps in the Southern Appalachians in recent years. This fee INCLUDES any high adventure program (except for the 5-rivers in 5-days whitewater program which is an additional $50); it also includes a river trip or horseback riding excersion for every scout attending. No extra fees for MBs, including Rifle, Shotgun and Motorboating. The only extra fees are for Leatherwork, Basketry and Woodcarving kits purchased at the store.

There has been some debate in the parent thread on new scout programs at different camps. Certainly we have a variety of opinions on what is and what is not good. This may be a good place to ponder these different experiences, expectations and opinions. At the camp we went to last year, new scouts participated in a program called "Polaris." The group consisted of 60-70 11-12 year old scouts. Each troop was suposed to provide an adult to accompany the scouts. There were 6 staff members, mostly aged 16-19, who appeared, in my opinion to be very organized, engaging and involved with these scouts. They covered T-2-1 requirements in morning and afternoon sessions, frequently breaking the large class into smaller groups. Afternoons were given to First Aid, mornings to most everything else. This was a very in-depth program, but it only left time for one MB class (handicraft). This did not allow scouts to take Swimming or First Aid. The staff claimed that the would work with scouts to finish these badges in special afternoon sessions, but ours did not do this--and I am glad. Clearly they shorted these scouts on these badges, and those who earned them really had not demonstated proficiency in all the required areas (my opinion). But the scouts had fun, and they did learn a fair amount. The camp which we are attending this year does their first year program, "Mountain Man," in a 2-hour block in the morning, giving scouts ample opportunity to earn other Merit Badges in the morning and afternoon (ours are taking swimming, along with last year's first year scouts who did not have the opportunity to do so). Personally, I feel this strikes a better balance. I like the idea of a first year program. What we had last year was good, but there was room for improvement. I have not expeienced this year's program, but the camp has a good reputation, so I have higher expectations. Interestingly, they offer almost exclusively handicraft classes in the afternoon, and they break them into longer, one and two day classes. Having taught these classes 25 years ago as a handicraft director, I am reserving judgement on how this will turn out. But it appears to fit with how the camp schedules other fun, troop activites, so it may make sense. Tell me about your exposure to these programs.

I agree, at least in part, with what emp021 said about the choice between a Sea Scout ship and a Venturing crew, but not entirely. The primary reason to register as a 1208 is for the advantage of using the rank advancement program. The sail oriented Sea Scouts you describe may well be able to register as a Crew, say as a 1204, Sailing and Boating. But if there are other subtle reasons to remain chartered as a Ship. For one, it is, for lack of a better word, image. Ships assume names, an identity which often carries on to any vessels it may operate. There is also a level of convenience with the program Sea Scout program if you are a water-borne unit (even if you do not utilize the rank structure). There is a significant amount of safety and seamanship emphasis, as expressed in the Sea Scout Manual, which is absent from the Venturing program. And the officer positions are reflective of skills associated with seamanship (not exclusive to the military). Just because you don't follow the ranks, doesn't mean you do not want to demonstrate proficiency with maritime skills, especially if you are operating vessels. Uniforming is optional all the way around (but is required to participate in regional--depending on the region--and national level events); again, this is something I see as pretty much a non-issue. I do, however, feel strongly about your use of word "ragbaggers." This is a derogatory word usually associated with a perception of power boat operators. I would no sooner use this word with a Sea Scout ship than I would "stinkpotters" or "smoke blowers" to describe a youth group who operate motor vessels. These are polarizing terms which have no place when working with teenagers in any scouting program.

Actually, Venturers have never been able to earn Sea Scout ranks or awards. In order to earn these, one must be a registered member of a Sea Scout Ship. On the unit application in the bottom left (above the executive officer signature) is a place for a "Special-interest code." For Sea Scouts, this is 1208. For Venturing crews, there are many more, including 4 or 5 which are boating related. However, if the unit is registered as anything other than "1208," which is described as "Ship only," members are ineligible to earn Sea Scout ranks and awards. Ranks are: Apprentice, Ordinary, Able and Quartermaster. Examples of Sea Scout Awards are: Small Boat Handler, Qualified Seaman, and Long Cruise. It is my understanding that Scoutnet will not update anything other than 1208 units with Sea Scouting Ranks, in the same way that persons registered to a Boy Scout troop cannot earn the Arrow of Light, a Cub Scout achievement. Units registered as a 1208 may also earn any Venturing Award (just not the reverse). I do agree with you that Sea Scout uniforms do strongly resemble their Navy equivalents. But BSAs charter states clearly that wearing of military uniforms is prohibited. The uniforms which are worn used to be like the navy uniforms, but have been modified in authorized ways to no longer make them an actual military uniform. Likewise, the officer patches of Sea Scouts do resemble the Navy and Coast Guard ranks, but see the difference? One is rank, another is position and are therefore very different. Just as a Patrol Leaders patch has 2 green bars, just as corporals have 2 chevrons and SPLs/Sergeants share 3 bars/chevrons. Yet they are different. (Bars-chevrons, Rank-office). Uniforming in Sea Scouting is optional, and like Venturing, Sea Scouts may choose their own; and like Venturers, there is an "official" uniform, but it is not required. I have seen many Sea Scout ships who have chosen uniforms which are not the "official" Sea Scout uniform. I would hardly call them shabby. Many are very sharp in their appearance and their demeanor, regardless of whether they operate power boats, sailboats, both or neither. Sailing, power boating, drill, and marlinspike (just to name a few) are skills which are a part of the program. The navy operates no sail vessels, yet the midshipmen at the academy learn how to handle all manner of vessels, and even form competitive sailing teams. It is a skill, which like in scouting, is a means to learning discipline, gaining experience and building character, and conveniently can be fun. Boy Scout troops often learn marksmanship (rifle shooting) as do Army snipers, but that does not make troops a para-military organization, even if some people believe it to be true Mis-perceptions like this are common. And they are understandable, when one does not understand the purpose, intent or means of the Sea Scout program. (This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

I think some leaders (BadenP, I am pointing a finger at what you have observed, not at you) just have it wrong. I see the Sea Scouting and Venturing programs as being 90% the same. The only real difference I see (as I alluded in the other thread) is the way in which the two execute their "Recognition" program. I do not advocate the separation of the two programs. Our ships here are still new, but have developed a reasonable degree of youth leadership, and our skippers are definately not COs or anything close. Just like some Boy Scout Troops, Sea Scout Ships can be run in ways other than what is intended for the program. Certainly everyone who has responded here agrees that there should be a separate "Skippers Award of Merit." It is just unclear to me why this has not been done. Interestingly, the SMAoM is submitted to NESA, where this award originated; however, the VAAoM is handled through the council, even thought the requirements are the same.

Yes, of course I meant Sea Scouts. Thanks, I was able to edit that. And it is important, as you suggested to appreciate the suble differences of the program. In reality Venturing is a program as different from Boy Scouts as Boy Scouts is from Cub Scouts. To a degree well beyond the expectations Boy Scouts, Venturing is intended to teach responsibility and accountability. I think the Venturing Code is one of the most powerful statements in all of Scouting: As a Venturer, I believe that America's strength lies in our trust in God and in the courage, strength, and traditions of our people. I will, therefore, be faithful in my religious duties and will maintain a personal sense of honor in my own life. I will treasure my American heritage and will do all I can to preserve and enrich it. I will recognize the dignity and worth of all humanity and will use fair play and goodwill in my daily life. I will acquire the Venturing attitude that seeks truth in all things and adventure on the frontiers of our changing world. Those are strong words indeed which I feel really embody what Ventruing is all about.

Check out the official site. In the first sentence it clearly states through age 20. http://www.scouting.org/Media/FactSheets/02-388.aspx There is plenty of other good information on this page, Liz which is worth taking the time to look over.

Technically, for Venturing and Sea Scouting it is "14 and having completed the 8th grade or 15, through 20." Twenty one year olds are no longer considered youth and are adults. Just as Eagle must be completed before one's 18th birthday, Venturing recognition (Silver, Ranger, Quest, and Denali) and Sea Scout rank (Quartermaster) must be completed before the date one turns 21. To clarify what was written above, there are no ranks in Venturing, and unlike Boy Scouts, "Rank Advancement" is not one of the methods (but "Recognition" is). Venturing has a program of Recognition which includes some stepped awards leading (via several paths) to the Silver Award, and there are other awards which can be earned as well. Sea Scouting is a part of the Venturing program, but it DOES have a series of ranks culminating in the Quartermaster. Sea Scouts may work on Venturing awards and recognition, but Venturers may not earn Sea Scouting ranks.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

"Ahhh! Gonna rush out & get my Wood Badge Speedo!" Do NOT give that man wear a Speedo!

The Advisor Award of Merit is for all Venturing Advisors. Sea Scouts is a part of the Venturing program, and it is appropriate for this to be earned by a Skipper. As far as the website goes, seascout.org is run by the national sea scout committee, as I understand it. One more note (and others may disagree here). If a skipper is given this recognition, I see no harm in displaying it with a Sea Scout device, as both the Scouter's Training Award and the Scouter's (Skipper's) Key are specificially recognized on the Sea Scout level.

Think of it this way. A cub scout (webelos) is registered with the pack; he has a BSA ID number. When he leaves Cub Scouts and becomes a Boy Scout, he transfers from the pack to the troop. Even in the example above, where the charter is at the end of February and he joins the troop before that date, I would see that as a transfer (for one or two weeks) and then a renewal with the troop for the annual fee. It may get sticky if, say in this circumstance, the troop completed and submitted it's recharter before the crossover or pack recharter, but again, the scout's registration is valid until when the pack has rechartered. Pay the $1 and then submit the annual re-registration fee. It gets confusing here because only because we "percieve" this to be an extra $1. In reality it is the same cost as if it occurred at any other time in the recharter year. Our council used to do it's recharters in February, but not do it at the end of December. This has worked well for our units.

And will Sea Scouts' come in blue with white or white with blue? Maybe that depends upon if it is for winter or summer wear....

I know that in our district, the attempt is made to accommodate those few who may have put off until the last minute because they want the scout to have every opporuntity to finish. The are still held to the same standard. If he has 2 months left and is not prepared, his project will be rejected just a fast as someone else who is, say only 15 years old. If that happens, he must just through the same hoops (only with more angst on his part) to proceed. It is still in his (the scouts's) hands.

Stosh, I'd watch out how you refer to the "War of Norhtern Agression." hehe. Regardless, I always wish historians would get it right. The first shots of the war were NOT fired at Fort Sumpter. On January 8, 1861, Lieutenant Adam J. Slemmer's guards repelled a group of rebels trying to take the unoccupied Fort Pickens. He chose to abandon Fort Barrancas, across the bay (as Ft. Pickens was more defensible). There were additional skirmishes over the next few days, but the Union maintained control the fort. Troops from Alabama took over the other 2 area forts and continued demanding the surrender of Ft. Pickens despite a formal truce which was agreed to on January 8 (how can you have truce if you are not at war?). Pickens became the only fort in Southern territioy which was held by the union throughout the length of the war. But I digress.

You can always reply that you will gladly leave any appropriately placed flag exactly where it is, and you may want to invite him to review the flag placement, as described on page 44 of the Boy Scout Handbook (that is the version I have, which may be a 3 or 4 years old). As I recall, it was in my scout handbook (that was the late 70s HB), complete with watercolor type illustrations showing a person on a small stage with the flag to the speaker's right.

I saw 2 scouts last year finish it up in about 8-10 weeks each (both closing in on their 18th birthdays). Our DAC meets to approve projects once per month (breaking up into teams of 3 or 4 to accommodate several a month, before the DC meeting), but they will organize and meet for someone who is under the gun. From what I have seen, these only occur a few times a year, as most seem to be able to do it with, at least a managable amount of time to spare.

I would expect a zero tolerance under the circumstances (especially in the presence of cubs) for that kind of language. Having the UC up to speed and present is a responsible and strategic option. For a moment, I was worried about the likely resulting exclusion of their son, but your responsiblitly also covers all the other scouts who will attend. John, Lisabob, and Beavah are right on. Not that they need my blessing, but I cannot offer better, clear-minded advice than they have given you. Good luck, and keep us posted on how things are going.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

If your council will not provide them free of charge, ask them to order you one and pay them for it. We have done similar things with our pack and troop before with no issues.

One of our local troops frequently brings their hand-cranked ice cream maker on campouts. They have all the crank power they want (each scout cranks as fast as he can for 30 or so seconds, then it goes on the next scout...). When one of their leaders was in the pack, he brought it to family camp. Great time was had by all (served with my cherry-apple dump cake). Otherwise, dry ice is a good option.

One of the popular things on our campouts with our patrols is grilled, fried or foil talapia. Fresh seafood is readily available locally, and relatively inexpensive (did you know that 40% of the us fresh seafood catch comes from the Gulf of Mexico?), but there is convenience in the frozen filets. They will cook it with potatoes, rice or even in tacos. But not to short the Dutch ovens. One patrol did a Shephard's pie, with all vegies/pototos from scratch. Great, great dinner! Or if you grill, just go on line for recipes. Another optino is foil dinners--look on the Reynolds wrap site for about 250 foil dinner recipes! Good luck with your patrol's expanded menu.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

I counseled all our scouts on what MBs they will take at camp this summer. I had to register everyone online a month ago, so I needed a clear picture of what the scouts were doing. For our new scouts, I did not question that they would be in the "first year" program (pathfinder, polaris, mountain man, or whatever your camp calls it), and all agreed. I also strongly encouraged swimming, as we will be doing several troop aquatic activities throughout the summer (surfing, sailing and a 70-mile canoe trip). Our camp's schedule left few other options for MBs beyond the handicraft for the only remaining time slots, and all our scouts enrolled in several of these. Our returning scouts (2nd year and older) I certainly allowed to take what they wanted. Personally, I discouraged the "classroom-Eagle-required" badges (Communications, CitN, CitW, and even Emerg Prep) as we have local counselors who I know will better serve our scouts. This only changed two or so MBs collectively for all the older scouts. Do I think some scouts made bad choices? Yes. Did I tell them that? Yes (not so bluntly, of course). But two insisted on taking a boatload of poorly selected MBs and I said OK. As SM, it clearly states that it is my responsiblity to guide each scout on their choices for MBs and selecting their counselors. I take that very seriously, but I do try not to hold back my scouts, even if it means there is a lesson to be learned (prehaps even by me). As for your provisional scout, I would certainly speak with his SM (over the oft recomended cup of coffee) and try to find out why it is this way, and explain, as you did to us, that the scout may well benefit most by participating with the other scouts. Best place to start, if you ask me.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

I spoke to him about this a few weeks ago, and like you, I was very disappointed with this developement. Email Craig, if you like, he may have some additional information for you.