Buffalo Skipper

I saw one scouter with a district committee patch, unit numbers, arrowhead honor and red tabs. In another case, I saw a Unit Commissioner with unit numbers. He was the UC for that pack, troop and crew. Imagine my surprise when I found out he was also the COR.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

Or try to invite as many former Cubmasters from your pack to join you. If you have an old pack, you may have a pretty big VIP table. Oh and be sure to recognize them at the banquet.

With the expected expansion of patrols in our troop and the fact that our two current patrols want to change their names, I thought this would be a good time to bring up an idea which has been festering for some time now. I had an idea several years ago which I filed away to use at a later date (now may be the best opportunity). One of the men with whom I work was a member of the same troop 30+ year ago. After talking to him and checking the records I found that for many years, the troop had a core of patrols which were all, in one way or another, linked, like a theme: Warrior, Aztec, Cherokee, Frontiersman and other similar patrol names. These survived in the troop nearly 2 decades from the early 1960s through the late 80s. I thought it would be great to have a theme in the troop, so that all the patrols would all each have a common bond. With all the non-standard patches available from some websites, examples might be marine animals, with the Makos, Hammerheads, Orcas, or Sting Rays; birds with Pelicans, Eagles, Ospreys, or Buzzards; or perhaps even mythical creatures like Dragons, Minotaurs or Werewolves. As a Scoutmaster, I would never impose an idea like this on the troop, but I would be willing to pitch the idea to the PLC to see if they wanted to choose a theme to adopt. Has anyone ever seen a patrols theme in a troop before?

Barry, thank you for your input; I really appreciate your detailed and thoughtful response. I do know you are not big on NSPs, and it is after reading your posts as well as Stoshs and others that I wanted to consider other options. We had a NSP this year, of sorts, and it mostly worked out ok. When our Webelos joined this year, we combined our older scouts into a single patrol (excluding the oldest who are approaching 18, not active and are separate). Call this group of mainly 1-2 year scouts Patrol A. Patrol B was a new scout patrol with a PL who was 14 (oldest active scout); this was mostly the remains of a Webelos den plus a couple of other new scouts. These scouts had good skills from Webelos, a sense of team, and got along well. Before summer camp, the PL transitioned to TG (seemed logical as the PL/TG would be away from camp at high adventure) and they elected their own leader. It simply did not make sense to break up their team at this point. Where the NSP idea failed is that the scouts in Patrol A, even though 4 of them have been together since Webelos, have never really leaned to work together. Most every scout in Patrol A wants to be PL, so no one takes direction from the others. They get along all right, but there is little teamwork, and their skills, after 19 months are about as refined as Patrol B, who has 12 months less experience. Our retention has been pretty good. We have lost 3 scouts in the past 2 years due to moving, one dropped as he lost interest, and one was removed from the charter; all others who left have aged out. Hearing the 40% growth figure from you about being like starting over is telling and makes sense to me; in fact, it explains last years growing pains and validates my concerns and reasons for starting this thread in the first place. What you said also states that getting our (our being the PLC) ducks in a row soon, and getting the ASMs and committee on board is the right thing to do. Seems like after this year, we should have sufficient critical mass to avoid this in the future. A lot of this, in my mind, connects to the other thread I started at the same time as this one regarding the First Class Emphasis (FCE). Right or wrong, I see that FCE and NSP are 2 pieces of the same puzzle. We have had some elements of the FCE program in our troop this year, but our emphasis has been on skills, outings and fun (from which advancement should come naturally). Based upon the 40% theory you mentioned, it suggests that forming a NSP with 7-9 crossovers may be a good thing to do, but it is best to break up that patrol after 6 months. Presumably this would be a group with close enough adult association to reinforce confidence in the new scouts. Even with that, however, we would still be realigning the patrols by about 40% after 6 months, so in a way, it is only delaying the inevitable. It suggests a now or later scenario. Beavah, I do want to get the boys on board and I want them to make the right decisions on this. Last year when we merged our 2 small patrols into one, it was what I felt we needed to do (in part from responses here on the forum); I didnt want to, but I felt it was best. I asked the PLC for ideas on how to integrate the new scouts and work the growth. On their own and without my prompting, they decided to make one older patrol and have the crossovers make a NSP with an experienced scout as PL. I was impressed they made the decision, and perhaps it was the best thing for us. In retrospect, I cannot imagine that putting a 40% growth in these patrols would have been better than what happened, but what we got was not perfect, so you never know. Backing up a little, Our quiet goal this past year was to have all our scouts complete Tenderfoot before summer camp. This meant that one boy from Patrol A (joined winter 2008) had to work past Scout; the only one who did not earn Tenderfoot was out of town for 2 months of the summer and did not attend camp with us. Most of the rest are now 2nd Class or close (both patrols). What good advancement by Patrol B has done, is prompt some in Patrol A to be a little more motivated, which cant be a bad thing. Brent, it does sound like we are in a similar position to where you were. We have a unique advantage here in that I am the Webelos 2 DL from one pack and the W2 DL from the other pack (he is actually the CM, his wife is DL) Eagled with our troop 18 years ago, and he is an ASM with the troop and is committed to his alma mater. Both packs and the troop share a CO, and the dens meet at the Troop building. Knowing our Webelos, we already have a good sense of numbers here, but of course it is subject to change up or down. A couple of quick questions for you; how closely did you work with your PLC on the split and how far beforehand did you start this? Also how did you handle the new scouts on campouts during that March to early May time when they were rotating between patrols? Can anyone add something more on this?

Acco40, that is a unique way to accomplish this, but I do like it. Granted, there are problems when you have don't have an even number of groups, but I do like it. How would you suggest we do this when we also have a number of new scout pairs? It seems to me that it would be likely we would end up age specific groups. For the time being, maybe we should keep our current patrols. Before the Webelos cross over, we could find 2 scouts from each patrol who would be willing to form a new patrol. When the Webelos do cross over, we could have them "pair" up into 3 equal groups and have each choose a patrol to join. How is that? Of course that still leaves the question of how far out do we divide out into the third patrol before the Webelos join. "When" is the question on which no one seems to want to comment.

Not trying to pry, but you have not said why the committee wants to rescind it's approval. What did he do with his den which made them change their mind? Not that this matters, but it may at least help us understand the "why" of it.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

As a den leader and former cubmaster, I have strong opinions on this. Six to eight is optimal. For 21 scouts, I would insist on 3 dens. I have over and over seen large dens simply implode on themselves. We once had a similar number in our pack. We had one den leader who inisisted she would only take 8, while the other took on over a dozen. Both leaders were working on second sons and were experienced. After one year, the first den lost only 1 scout, while the other den lost all but 4. The cliques and sub groups that formed in the den underminded the whole system. Likewise the next year, we had a group of 14 which completely disentigrated, and only 2 scouts returned the next year (the remnants of this group is the den for which I am the den leader--I took over last year). We have 5 scouts, none of which remain from the original 14 Tigers. Break up the den. I can offer no other advice.

Like nolesrule, I am also in Florida, though the other end of the state. I cannot recall, in my day-to-day scouting, having EVER seen a scout or leader wearing a long sleeve shirt. I think they may be one of those "scouting myths" we are talking about in another topic.

I have understood that programs should work toward having it's scouts reach First Class in one year (scouting myth?). Right or wrong, how do you all feel about this? There are lots of aspects to discuss regarding here: skill level/experience, pushing too hard, and burn out, just to name a few. And for those of you with many years of experience as scout leaders, does this work? and why or why not?

We have had this discussion many times in one form or another, but let me present this from a particular perspective. We have 2 active patrols of 6 each with an SPL in no patrol (no ASPL for this small a troop). We have been contacted by a couple of scouts possibly interested in transfering from other troops, and we are working closely with 2 packs/webelos dens and we expect to have 6-8 recruits in the late winter. Last year, we had a "New Scout Patrol," which worked out OK, but for a variety of reasons, we may want to avoid a NSP this year. Can you all throw out some ideas on how to divide a group of 2 into 3 and divvy up new scouts? I want to talk to the SPL about this at some point, but my question is when do we start working this out with the PLC? Crossovers are at the end of February, which is 2-3 weeks before elections, so when do we start organizing this? I have for some time been pitching "growth" to the troop, and this is when it will likely kick into gear.

I visited a troop meeting once where scouts were chastized by their SM for bringing a football to a meeting and throwing it outside during the game (not actually playing football). He said that football is banned by BSA and any injury sustained involving a football will not be acknowledged by BSA insurance. More to the point of my original post, what are your experiences with these myths?(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

bpaul, Thanks. Interesting requirements, interesting read (scan). Please advise us of any others when they post. I have not heard which (if any) will be dropped. With 4 new badges, I would speculate that at least a couple would be dropped. BSA has always maintained a "range" of badges for decades. Something like 116-124 (I read it somewhere--Ask Andy?--but I can't find it now). I haven't counted how many are currently offered, with or without these new ones. Can anyone else contribute this number or comment on which are on the chopping block? (no myths here...)

I have 3 scouts kind of like this. All are life and are 4-7 months from turning 18. All went to summer camp but went on high adventure (no MBs). They collectively attended only 3 other campouts last year. Two are active in sports and all 3 have jobs. They only show up to meetings to discuss Eagle projects or badges, and never in a uniform. All have completed their active/6 months and POR requirements years ago. I worked hard to encourage activities which were unique for them, but they just wouldn't bite. One will likely make Eagle (being pushed hard by a parent, needing only 2 MBs and has the most time before 18), the other two will have to work pretty hard to make it. The youngest of the scouts do not even really know the older ones and will be unmotivated to assist on their Eagle projects, if they ever put them together. These older scouts have a chip on their shoulder when they do show up. It is unfortunate. I have met with them on many occasions, but they refuse to participate. All have excellent scouting skills and could contribute considerably to the troop; yet I am somewhat relieved when they do not show up to meetings as their attitude and appearance have a very negative impact on the younger scouts. Have I given up on them? No. I am supporting them as they work toward Eagle. I am, however, placing much more stock in our younger scouts. Completing a few MBs and an ESLSP will do little to change their attitudes at 17.

Since the parent thread was taking a side line to talk about some of scoutings myths, let's discuss them further here, and maybe even the consequences of acting on those beliefs. When I came into the troop, we had an advancement coordinator who believed that MB partials were only good for a year. Every year, when the troop went to summer camp, she threw away the previous year's partials. We have many scouts who almost finished a few Eagle required badges (Personal Fitness, Environmental Science and others), but with no record of any completed requirements, these scouts must now start over on these badges. I wish I could figure out a way around that. What other myths have you heard or debunked?

I did find out that you can directly upload this to Scoutnet via MyScouting. You will need your unit ID and a Scoutnet Account. Once logged into MyScouting, on the left-hand margin look at Unit Tools>Internet Advancement. From there just follow the instructions. Seems simple. I will have to try it tomorrow, as we are not yet ready to report September's advancement. I will let you know how it goes....

I did find out that there is a "help desk" line. I got it from my local council office today. It is (800) 627-3025. I had a problem with my MyScouting account, and they helped straighten it out.

nolesrule, Many congratulations now and happy times to come! Years ago, my wife worked with a man who had 3 boys, the youngest of whom was a few years separated from his older siblings. One more time, he and his wife wanted to "try" for a girl. They looked into all the "superstitions" about having girls: lunar cycles, time of year and much, much more. After following everything they were "suposed" to do, his wife happily conceived again. Twin boys. The decided 5 was enough.

The only file format I am aware of is a comma delimited file created by Troopmaster. Is that what you are looking for? Which reminds me, I need to send a September advancement report to the scout office. Thanks for that.

The truth is that the movie need not be a historical film, nor a historical fiction. It is looking at depecting a period in history, and how accurately that was accomplished. Interestingly, I had forgotten that the MB handbook has a list in the back, listed by period and year of release: American Revolution 1776Civil War Buffalo Soldiers Gettysburg The Red Badge of Courage Gone with the WindThe Old West Dances with Wolves Lonesome Dove Gunfight at the OK CoralWW I A Farewell to Arms Sergent York All Quiet on the Western FrontThe Great Depression The Journey of Natty Gann Sounder To Kill a Mockingbird (My dogs are named Boo and Scout) The Grapes of WrathWW II Band of Brothers Tuskeegee Airman Memphis Belle Tora! Tora! Tora! The Longest Day Sands of Iwo Jima The Best Years of Our LivesThe 1950s La Bamba Grease Rebel Without a CauseThe Space Race Apollo 13 The Right Stuff Civil Rights and Tolerance Ghosts of Mississippi Corrina, Corrina The Long Walk Home Driving Miss Daisy King The Autobiography of Miss Jane Pittman The requirement does not read "Watch two motion pictures of your counselor's choice..." so I am reluctant to sit them down to two movies of my choice. Instead, I am asking that the scouts view a movie on their own before camp and we can discuss it as a group. As I have suggested earlier, we will probably show The Red Badge of Courage, as it neatly fits our time constraints. but I would prefer that the scouts choose all their own requirements. Were I to have a limitless time to show and discuss movies of MY choice, I would probably include something from the Cold War Era, like The Bedford Incident or Fail-Safe. I think this is a significant period of recent history which has been "lost" on our current young generation. It is unfortunate that some of the best movies from this period (in my opinion) are rated R, which is inappropriate for scouts. I do like the way in which the American Heritage MB is presented. It does not try to be "American History MB" with a different name. It does, however, carefully weave history into the threads of the badge, without turning it into a histroy class. I will have 2 groups of up to 15 scouts each, but I expect fewer to register. Working with a small group on this could really be a lot of fun.

monkeyboyev, That's pretty much correct. However, there may be something your committee is covering which you may not be aware of. We charge montly dues totaling $120/year. When you subtract the cost of the registration/BL, that come to less than $100/per person. We do a couple of couple of "above average" campouts per year, and charge no extra. We cover all transportation/gas expenses for summer camp (that came to $400 last year). We bought new tents ($700); the troop pays for all the propane for out troop stoves/lanterns ($75). We repainted the inside and outside of our building, and changed out the locks in our doors; we purchased over $200 in rope and related supplies and replaced a broken dutch oven; and then there's the website, troop neckerchiefs, Troopmaster software costs, printer ink, paper, and many other expenses. In other words, before you jump to conclusions, politely ask (as Lisabob suggests, in an unassuming manner) what other expenses does the troop absorb annually? Does your troop also charge for dues? I know of some which do not and only charge an annual fee. If that is the case, your $150 (for registration) is not really out of line.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

monkeyboyev, Welcome to the forum. Expect a variety of different answers here, so keep an open mind to the answers you receive. Different unit sometimes charge different things and call them "registration fees." Our troop pays all our registration fees and Boys' Life out of our general fund and we charge $10/month dues. The actual cost of registration with National is now $15 and Boys' Life is $12. Some councils charge separately for supplemental insurance (ours does not). So you are beginning to understand that there is not necessarly a single answer for everyone. If you are part of a boy-led troop, the PLC should have direct involvement in the determining the expense and costs of outings. Ours does, though the final answer on cost of a trip may be determined by the committee. You may want to just ask your Scoutmaster what the trip cost is and what the expenses are. Tell him you are wanting to learn how to plan and budget trips and costs. Make it a friendly discussion and see what he says. Though I grew up across the country from you, I found myself working with Sea Scouts out of Long Beach when I was a much younger. I have spent many a night onshore and on a boat out at Catalina Island. Great place, and a lot of fun. Good luck.

"Take them camping - let them build fires and use knives. Let them pick a patrol name and make an emblem and flag." I always recomend fire and knives. Makes things very exciting! (Just be sure to follow the Guide to Safe Scouting) One of our big Webelos activities we do every October is a Rocket Rally. We purchase simple kits en-masse from a local hobby store for under $5 each. Dens and families decorate and assemble the kits and then have a day of rocket launching. The purchase price includes two small motors. We also have several rocket enthusiasts from the regional club show up and they launch multiple small to large rockets (usually including a 6'er with a G or H motor!). Yes, fire, knives and real rockets. Really keeps you on your toes.

Several years back, I made one for our pack. I used a 10' 2x4, ripped it in half and knocked down the edges with a block plane and sand paper. I found an aluminum pipe, 18" long and just the diameter to fit then beveled 2x2. I fitted the pipe 1/2 way onto the lower piece of the flagpole, drilled 2 hole all the way through and fitted with a 1/4" bolt/nut, cut to lenght. I attached 3 guys about 2/3 of the way down on the upper piece. Each guy consists of a piece of clothesline with a bowline on one end through a small brass trigger snap and a taut-line hitch through a 15" large orange stake on the other end; this way the the guys are removable. At the top is a metal bar with a small pulley attached and an old jam cleat on at waist height (just right for scouts). The halyard is white 1/8" parachute cord, with d-ring clips for a flag. This becomes a collapsable 20' flag pole. Two people can set it up in 5 mintues by driving the 3 stakes in the ground around a center point. One person can set it up alone, but it is a little tougher (I have done it many times). I have had it up in winds up to 20 knots without incident, and it has never fallen. It can be broken into 2 10' sections and can fit either inside my wife's minivan or lashed to the top of my Durango It always leaves an impression with everyone to have our own personal flagpole at events.

Jersey Scout, Sorry if my post came across as suggesting that scouts attend the Trainer's EDGE course. This is an adult level course for trainers who will be training other adults in specific courses; it is not intended for a troop level audience. I agree that scouts should have a great concept of training and the elements of EDGE, which have been around for some time, whatever names it has been called now or in the past. Many of these scouts may practice these basic techniques, but others may be missing key elements, especially younger scouts. As this will soon part of requirements in 2 of the 6 ranks in Boy Scouts, it is important that we ensure all scouts understand the 4 elemental parts of this concept. jet526, sherminator505 and ntrog8r have all suggested very good methods and environments in which to incorporate this in order to familiarize our scouts with the EDGE elements.

Good ideas all, and keep them coming. As we are pressed for time, I will be suggesting that scouts watch a movie on their own in advance, and we can discuss it camp. I will probably show The Red Badge of Courage, but I have not committed myself to that yet. At 69 minutes, we could watch the movie and follow up with a subsequent discussion in a long hour and a half.