Buffalo Skipper

Not that I doubt you, but this doesn't really make sense to me. First of all, VLSC is not a council level training, it is suposed to be a unit level activity. NYLT is a leadership training exercise in which the participants are placed in a patrol environment. The patrol method has no place in the Venturing program. Sea Scouts, on the other hand, are divided into patrol-like groups called "Crews" (not to be confused with Venturing "Crew"), but a ship crew is generally not trained in the "Patrol Method." The unfamiliar and unrelated patrol structure of NYLT would, in my opinion, greatly reduce the value of this training to the young ladies unfamiliar with boy scout troop structure, or any young men who have no boy scout background, for that matter. More significantly, Placing 13 year old boy scouts (and older) in a Co-ed situation is extremely problematic from a "youth protection" point of view. Are they talking about mixing patrols? That sounds pretty ridiculous from the standpoint of the boy scout youth. So if that is a "no" then are they talking about segregated patrols? Again, what is the point of that? From a venturer's point of view, it seems like they are loosing the value of the training. Considering what is coming out of Dallas these days, it would not surprise me to know that this has not been thought out too much. Again, not to doubt the sincerity of what what your were told, but it doesn't seem too likely to me.

BadenP, I never said it was an official program, only that BSA training curriculum provided the resource to distribute this as a handout at training. As I said, that is not my opinion; it exists in the BSA documentation. Anyone here is welcome to interpret BSA's intent in doing so any way they choose. When I get home tonight, I will glance at the training syllabus to see of and/or where this handout is to be passed along at the course.

FYI, I was reviewing the BSA issued training CD which accompanies the trainer's material for all the scout leader training. Interestingly, in the PDF folder is a form entitled "First Class First Year" which is an advancement tracking form. That is not to justify, approve or give and opinion on the concept, only to indicate that it does exist in the "official" record.

First, welcome to the forums, and kudos for taking the time and effort to learn more about the program. If all new cub scouts leaders were to put in the initial effort you have, Scouting would be 10x what is now and closer to realizing it's true potential. It is unfortunate that your council does not offer BALOO any earlier than April, but you are in a unique position, being in the LA basin. There are 4 other councils within a stone's throw of you and you can easily take the courses they offer. Look into the Los Angeles Area Council, Western Los Angeles County Council, Ventura County Council and/or Orange County Council. Years ago, I lived in Anaheim, but was active in the Long Beach Council (as a Sea Explorer).

At this weekend's PLC, the group decided to adopt a troop "theme": Florida Wildlife. While prehaps more broad than I had anticipated, this does make sense; actually this topic really does not do much to limit the patrol names, especially when you look at patches available from patchtown.com and classb.com. Everything from manatees to pelicans to pine trees to bears, bobcats and sharks. Including the official emblems, this gives about 50 options, plus whatever they can come up with themselves. They agreed that the PLC had to approve all patrol names within the broad guidelines. But leave it to our scouts to be creative, in ways one does not anticipate. Our two patrols are now the Pink Flamingos and the Mosquitos. On a side note, but related, our growth prospects are increasing. We have 1 new recruit and one transfer, as well as another transfer and 3 new recruits being courted; the two Webelos 2 dens from our two packs are growing as well with maybe as many as 12 potential transfering webelos. That could give us as many as 28 scouts (4 patrols of 7 each)! Maybe it pays when we make an effort to do somthing right....

Crossramwedge, As CC and COR, it is great to see you involved and caring about what the health of your unit and your individual scouts. Talking about this scout you said: He will not help on camping trips, he wonders off by himself and usely finds a way to get his Dad to take him home early. As I said we have spoken to him and his Dad about this behavior on several occasions Seems that this statement, along with the $$$ payoffs, really suggests that this may be more of an issue about the dad enabling the behavior. My action, as SM would be to ask the dad not to attend a campout for a while, and to not have the son leave early. This is a disruption to the troop and activity if not done for legitimate reasons. We have a scout who just transferred in from another troop. This scout and his parents had some problems in that troop (I spoke to their leaders about this). We wanted to avoid the same pitfalls as the other troop, we enlisted the parents as committee members rather than ASMs. We also arranged that they not attend campouts for a while so we could evaluate Johnny-scouts skills and give him the opportunity to bond with his patrol. At our campout last weekend, he came up to the adults 3 times wet eyed and homesick. We were glad he came to us about this and we worked him through it. He had a great time, but as a Star Scout, I doubt he had ever done a weekend of camping without his parents. Fortunately he has excellent skills and is very motivated and polite. But removing his parents from our next few months of camping will have a big affect on his ability to grow and come into his own and contribute to his patrol and our troop. This may be a way for you to be engaging with your scout rather than putting him on the defensive with a strong and negative scoutmaster conference.

I value everyone's opinions here. I read nearly every post (except for "issues and politics") and I consider everyone's viewpoint and experience very carefully. For me the forum is like an invisible district filled with warm-hearted (or sometimes cold blooded!) commissioners. Sitting and listening to many posts, I have gleaned a tremendous amount of knowledge. And reading the many posts has done quite a bit to mold my ideas and standards, or at least to solidify them. It would be hard for me to put together a "list" of things which I learned and applied to my troop or den, because when it strikes particularly close to home, I may add a question which applies to my particular situation. Kudus ideas on the patrol method have had a profound effect on my where I am trying to lead our troop, and I have enjoyed (and miss) reading his and everyones debates on these issues. We dont always camp our patrols 100 yards apart, but seeking this ideal has changed where I recommend to the PLC that we camp. An offshoot on that is the idea of NSPs vs. MAPs (mixed age patrols). Talks about MB clinics or universities have affected my overall view on MBs. Webelos recruiting is another area where we have adopted many ideas, and seen many ideas which we are not yet in a position to take advantage of, but will be very soon. Equipment talk is something I also read closely, we often take these ideas and apply them. And sometimes I read something and decide that is NOT how we will do that. Moreover, I always enjoy the SM Minute. I wish we had more contributors there. I feel our troop is definitely moving in the right direction (even if slowly), and I have the forum to thank for that, whether I participate in the discussion or not.

We have had issues in our council with MBC records, and they are working to resolve this (in fact they have, for now). I see the responsibility of assigning MBCs as being more than pulling a name from a hat. I want to ensure that the MBC is a good match for Johnny scout. As such, like to have a 3 minute conversation with the MBC before I refer a scout to him. "How long have you been a conselor for Beekeeping?" "What is your expertise with bees?" "Have you been through MBC training?" "How much do you charge for a quart of Honey?" I often choose MBCs whom I know (as an active district trainer and recent member of the DC, I probably know 1/3 of the district MBCs personally), but even if it is a friend, I call before I assign a counselor. A good example is 3 weeks ago, I called a friend who's wife is MBC for Personal Management. She was already working with 4 scouts from a variety of troops and did not want to take on 3 more all at once, so I found another for our Life scouts. I just try to take a very proactive approach to this. I also keep a log of which Blue Cards have been given to which scouts and when. It only takes a minute to do this, so it is not a big deal. Shouldn't some of this be done by an the committee Advancement Coordinator? Prehaps, but I like to take a hand's on approach. As our troop grows, it will be necessary to spread this out some, but for now I can handle it.

Stosh, Thanks a million. Actually there are three: Two Minute Mysteries, More Two Minute Mysteries, and Still More Two Minute Mysteries. I was able to read the first three mysteries of the first book via Amazon. I will order it and try it with the troop. How many are in the book you have?

I gave this some thought yesterday after I posted. I decided that the information in the Insignia Guide is intended exactly as BDPT00 suggests: Palms are not to be worn in the patch on the uniform. Scouts may display palms only when wearing the Eagle Award ribbon.

******* ************************************************ **********************DoorI-------Visitors Benches-------------IDoor ****Fridge**Troop Area Ptl Table** // / / / \ \ \ \ \ * *QM // / / /\ \ \ \ \ **Closet// / / /\ \ \ \ \Ptl Table**------------------------I**Adult area/ I**desksIF X FPtl Table ** I ***********************************************************************************Here is ourScoutHut, inside dimensions roughly 35x50. To the left is a QM closet behind a Dutch door marked "QM Closet". Visitorsbenches are from the closed Trailways bus station from 20 years ago.Troop area marks chairsfacing the podium marked "X"; troop sits in this area by patrol,filling the seats from front to back."F" markes troop andAmerican flags. Behind the podium is a 4x8 white board. Patrol tables are on the right are plywood break-down picnic tables with office type dividers between patrol areas. Patrols are encouraged to decorate their areas andeach has a 2x4 white board. This is very different from what it was a year ago. There used to be a table up front and all the "senior scouts" would sit behind the table facing the troop like some judges holding court.Even after I said"no" the older scouts would come in and set up the table. It is only not set up now because they no longer attend meetings.Our podium used to be so large and bulky that you could not see a 12 year old standing behind it; on the front was the scout law and though useful, it was not practical. I made a new one which was a single mahogany 2x2 pillar with a trim but addequate desk top; it is adorned only with a walnut burl inlaid fleur-di-lis. Last year the room was a complete mess, with unused charts, assignments and miscellaneous clutter. The wall behind the patrol areas was painted for patrols which had been dispanded 5 year earlier. The old stuff was taken off the walls which were patched and painted. Much was thrown out, and it is singificantly better organized than before. All this was done to better our environment, and there is a sense of pride where before there was a degree of embarassment. The patrol area have not been decorated yet (almost a year later), and there is not yet a sense of ownership, but that is the goal.

Thank you all for the replies. I wrote a reply yesterday, but I decided to be patient and see what everyone had to say, and I am glad that I did. Allow me to clarify the issue a little without railroading my own topic (which, I might add, is entirely within my abilities). Our SPL is underqualified and completely unprepared for meetings. The scouts give an amount of respect equal to the amount of effort he puts into planning: zero. I would put this back on the scouts for electing him, but I find that hard to do because our troop is so young that they have no real expectations of their leaders. The SPL is a significant problem, but I must treat that as separate from this issue, even if it is related. The scouts who are disruptive are not scouts I want out of the troop, in fact, they have quite a bit to contribute to the greater good; two have the potential to be some of the strongest leaders our troop has ever seen. I have some options. I do like the 3-strikes idea Barry proposed (one warning, leave the room, leave the meeting). With an inexperienced SPL this may be hard to enforce fairly, but this may be our best option at the present. We have a strong, experienced scout leader stepping up in the committee, and we have a parents' meeting very soon (but no date set). Is this something we should bring up at that time? Should we warn parents and scouts before hand? Waiting for the parents meeting will delay things by a month, and I believe that may be enough time to cause significant damage. I am more inclined to just start with a 1-2-3 strikes youre out policy. Ntrog8r, I also like the idea of putting them into their own patrol. Like I said, one of these scouts has all the makings of a great leader; he just needs focus and direction. We only have 13 active scouts right now, which is two patrols of 6 plus the SPL. To divide out would make 4 patrols of 4 which would prove extremely problematic. We have problems getting enough of each patrol at campouts to actually call them a patrol. Yet, I will keep this option open, as with a little extra effort, it could prove very intriguing. Stosh, what is the name of your book so I can look into finding an old copy?

Sorry if that ended up being misleading, or appeared to be out of context. The exact quote on page 25 of the Insignia Guide reads as follows: "Eagle Palm, Bronze, No. 00335; Gold No. 00336; Silver No. 00337; Boy Scout and Scouter, worn only on the Eagle Award ribbon or Eagle square knot. You may wear only the proper combination of Palms for the number of merit badges you earn beyond Eagle. The Bronze Palm represents five merit badges; Gold, 10; and Silver, 15. For example, if you earn 10 merit badges and two Palms, you would wear only the Gold Palm. If you earn 20 merit badges and four Palms, you would wear a Silver and a Bronze Palm." [hopefully no typos there] Clearly there is nothing wrong with wearing palms on the knot, in fact I wear mine on occasion. Typically,as I suggested in my earlier post, I wear it whenattending a court of honor or maybe a District or Council Banquet. These are the same occasions when I wear my other devices. I have found that these pins, easily get caught on things (including seatbelts), and I just don't feel the need to display them all the time. I put this in the same category I put scouts' MB sashs: an appropriate part of a complete uniform, but unnecessary and impractical on every occasion.

Per the insignia guide. page 25: Eagle Palm,Boy Scout and Scouter, worn only on the Eagle Award ribbon or Eagle square knot. Just as a scout is not expected to his MB sash or an eagle wear his ribbon all the time, this should be reserved of only more formal occasions--certainly not on a day to day basis.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

We have had a fairly laid back culture at our troop for some time now. The little structure we had was generated by older scouts who no longer attend meetings. One of these scouts is just blatently deifiant, and though he has now left the troop, he has left his mark on the other scouts. This core of 3-4 scouts are very disruptive and in general disrespectful. Two are real clowns, and will interrupt constantly, trying to get a laugh. They make disruptive noises, talk back and make themselves the center of attention. Both are Tenderfoot going who are ready to become a Second Class. I am not trying to have our leaders build a "military" type of disciplined troop. In fact I am really trying to create a troop which is fun, laughing and happy; but there is a time for everything. We want to make it clear that this behavior is not acceptable. So, how to we enforce this without being adult directed. I refuse to accept that this must be entirely left to the scouts to implement; that would only be chaos perpetuating chaos, which in part is what the troop has had for years. The question is how do we instill (and enforce) this expecation on the patrols and scouts when it has been done in the past?

Welcome! Webelos is great and fun time to work with boys. Enjoy this year while you can. It seems to me you are trying to do everything right and that is good. As for advice, first I would remind the mom that even at 11, her boy would be in a group of middle- and high-schoolers, alone. If they wait to cross with the rest, your group of elementary school boys will be better able to adjust together, as a team. Remind her that your den is a team and that breaking up the team prematurely hurts all the members, those that leave as well as those who remain. But if he is 11 years old and she wants him to cross to a troop, you cannot stop her, nor should you put roadblocks in the way. Work with him, just as you would your other scouts to prepare him for a troop; that is what Webelos is about. As far as already being signed off on reciting the scout oath and law; if it was previously signed off it counts. Plain and simple. Our 5th grade Webelos den [Go Dragons!] meets together with a 4th grade den, and part of our opening ceremony every week is to recite the scout oath and law. That way, every scout is reinforced with this, and he will memorize it without your having to force it on him or retest him. I also have a 5th grade den of mixed experienced Webelos and new scouts. The new scouts are excited about joining and we are making it interesting for everyone. The experienced Webelos are working with the new friends to see that they earn their Bobcat and their Webelos badge. It is a great bonding experience for these boys and I am excited at their prospects in moving to a troop in 4-5 months. Have fun!(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

OK, I'll play ball. I talked about the First Aid MB, where you were talking about the T-2-1 requirements. I consider the skill sets presented in a merit badge to be more advanced than what would be expected for rank requirements; not the same thing (exactly) but the overlap is significant. We're kind of comparing apples to cherries here; both are red fruit which grow on trees in similar climate zones and each can be found in my two my favorite pies--but they do not taste the same. Merit Badges are not intended to make scouts experts on their associated topic. Yes, scouts must often demonstrate a degree of proficiency in the related skills. I earned the Architecture MB as a scout. I hardly remember a thing about the requirements, could not recall a one without rereading them after 30 years. I also earned the Printing MB. My father was a printer (he owned a one man shop with several presses), so it made sense to learn more about this field. I still retain much of this knowledge because of my repeated exposure over the years, but I could not run one of his offset presses to save my life. On the other hand, what I learned about layout, format, fonts, spelling and grammer, proofing and other related "printing" skills I use almost every day of my life, on and off my job (though they are certainly not of my job description). I believe that scouts completing the T-2-1 requirements should have a basic proficency at these skills, and when signed off have demonstrated their understanding of how they are done. However, unless they are presented with opportunites to refresh and hone these skills, they will be lost. That responsibility is not the scouts, but falls generally on the unit and its leaders. I can go on about this, but most everywhere I would take this would likely become a discussion about "either adding to the requirements," "who signs off advancement," or "re-testing at BoRs." And I don't feel that would be prudent, productive or necessary. Near my house is a 4 lane divided road with a large landscaped median. There are no businesses and few houses (driveways) on the road, though several neighborhoods "back up" it. There are traffic lights only at each end, and over 1.5 mile stretch only 3 side roads on one side or the other as it winds around the airport property. Traffic on this road is regular but typically light. The speed limit was 45, but about 7 years ago the city changed it to 35. Most people still drive 40-45 on the road, but I drive right at 36, so I can set the cruise control (which will not work at 35 mph or below). I consider the 1 mph over the speed limit acceptable, as with the cruise control I will not accidentally find myself at 45 mph or higher. Everything we as leaders do is a compromise of sorts. We must look at all the elements involved and find the balance we want to instill in our scouts. This is not so different than how we live our lives. I expect that our scouts are demonstrate a proficiency in their rank skills. Then I work with the PLC and see that our troop as a whole has the opporutnity to practice these skills over the years to reinforce what they have learned. I do not expect perfection every day until their 18th birthday. But I do hope they retain the proficiency we have tried to instill in them, prehaps for years to come, just as my Scoutmasters, Skipper, SPLs and MBCs did with me. [edit: sorry, I made some gramatical errors and didn't proof it as thoroughly as I usually do](This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

I guess I am welcome to chime in here; after all I was the one who asked to discuss the the FCFY (or FCE) concept last week. I have listened to what everyone here has said. My take is that we are getting our panties unnecessarily wrapped around the axle here. For one, as leaders, we are responsible to see that our scouts are getting an adequate program which meets our standards. There are many tools at our disposal, and we do not necessarily announce to the scout exactly what we are doing, which educational concepts are being used nor do we expect from our scouts a written evaluation how effectively we delivered the program to them. Our methods are more subtle. We deliver program (in an organized and methodical manner) with the expectation that scouts will learn from these opportunities provided them. We don't say how it was organized, we just do it. Sometimes, scouts miss those meetings or campouts, and we hope they are responible enough to seek out their patrol leaders (or troop guides or other "experienced" scout) to learn the skills they lack. Other times it may take a little prodding to see that the PLs seek out their scouts who are missing requirements and encourage them in this direction. Beavah, in the case of our troop First Aid skills are a poor example; however, I think it is a great example of how a FCE program can be implemented. One of our committee members is a PA and 25 year scout leader. He offers a First Aid Merit badge class at the end of the school year (before summer camp) for anyone who has not completed the badge. This class is handled in depth, and is no gimme for the scouts. It is often 3-4 Saturday sessions lasting 2-4 hours each, depending upon the number of scouts, skipped sessions and the like. No one is given the badge, but it is earned as the skills are demonstrated and "mastered," per the FA MB requirements. First Aid MB requirements cover completely the 2C and 1C rank requirements. This is the only formal class our troop promotes for merit badges, and there is a reason we treat this differently. We consider First Aid a necessary "life-skill." At any point in or out of scouting, a boy can be thrust into a situation in which a rudimentary knowledge of first aid can have great benefit, prehaps even saving a life (though most first aid situations are not life threatening). I have never read of a scout talking about how thankful he was to have taken the Citizenship in the Community MB because without that knoweldge surely his family would have perished in the situation they in which the found themselves. Sure we have scouts who cannot attend or prehaps not complete this class and the opportunity is provided them to make it up afterwards. Most importantly, we do review first aid skills periodically to reinforce what they have learned. Any scout who appears to be a little weak in this area is invited back to assist in the next FA MB class. Lisabob hit the nail on the head, as did SR540Beaver. The scouts are exposed to the program, it is up to them to take up the reigns and go with it. No scout need be aware that we are giving them the tools to be a First Class scout in a year, or that that is our expectation. Neither our adults nor our scout leaders sit around the PLC and with the rank advancement requirements in front of us and say "How can we cover all this in the next 52 meetings?" or "Johnny and Frank don't have this done and they only have 6 more weeks before they have been in the troop a year--we need to get on this!" I looked over my rank advancement cards last night, looking specifically at how long it took me to make 1st Class and every rank to that point. I crossed over to my boy scout troop in June of 1976; I missed summer camp that summer, but regardless, there were no "new scout" programs being offer at our summer camp then, just MBs and fun, so it didn't hurt me on my "road to First Class." It took me roughly 6-10 months to earn each rank to First Class which I completed exactly 2 years and 1 week after my Arrow of Light. Interstingly, back then, the First Aid skill award was required for 2nd Class and the First Aid MB was required for 1st Class. Scouts are coming out of Webelos with their Advancement hand fed to them since they were a Tiger, 5 years earlier. Webelos in a good program will have a slightly different advancement experience their 4th and 5th grade years, but the diferences are subtle and not really like how it is handled in Boy Scouts. It is important to me that we wean them from these habits. Our way of doing this is to provide them strong opportunities to complete the Tenderfoot requirements and to encourage them to get them signed off by olders scouts when we see they have "mastered" these basic skills. For 2nd Class, again we provide skill learning opporunities, but we expect the scout to take much more initiative on learning and getting things signed off, and by the time they are working on 1st Class, we really do not push the scouts, as we expect them to be "self motivated" to advance at their own pace. After a year, however, troop outings (and the First Aid MB) summer camp and troop life have provided the scouts with the opportunity to be a first class. It is not perfect, and it is not absolute. All but one of our current first year scouts is Tenderfoot; one is a Second Class, and the rest are close to completing Second Class (this 7-8 months in). All could be 1st Class by their anniversery date, but I expect that not every one will will have taken the initiative to finish it up. I stepped in as SM officially right at New Year's. One that year's first year scouts was still a Scout and the rest were Tenderfoot. All have now advanced one rank and all are just about to advance again. Two who are almost 1C almost are self motivated (but each lack a key requirement) and the others are close to 2C. I feel the troop is making progress. Of our remaining 3 older scouts who are Life and closing in on 18, two took 2 years to earn 1C and one took 4 years. All are racing to finish Eagle. I believe 1 will almost certainly make it it, one will probably make it, but the other will have to work extremely hard to comeplete Eagle. I was not a part of the troop when they earned their lower ranks, so it would be pointless to jump to the conclusion that early rank advancement would have encouraged these scouts to make Eagle at a younger age, but who is to say it might not have? Let me finish by saying that it is not all about Eagle (nor even about counting ranks). Sure we want our troops to be made of perfect, self motivating scouts who have flawless skills and make Eagle by whatever age you think is best for each of them; that is not the real world of scouting, and I do not believe any troop should be that way. Advancement is only one method of Boy Scouts, or you might say that advancement is one method by which we measure a scout's progress, but it is not the only way we do this. Interstingly, no where in the Boy Scouts of America Mission Statement or Vision Statement is advancement or Eagle mentioned or even suggested.

Yah, and it wouldn't be Scouter.Com if we didn't mention "Patrols must camp at least 300 feet from each other" Nothing arbitrary about this rule. It was recomended in BSA literature by Green Bar Bill Hillcourt himself! Or is that just a myth?

So they don't allow anything which can be used as a weapon at school or even in the parking lot? How do they justify the presence of cars? I am sure far more students have died in car crashes than have been by a 2" pocket knife.

Tough days head. Like Mike F, would not wish your situation on anyone. My own impression about this mirrors everyone else here. I would have a sit down with the SM first. As the CC, you are not a direct contact leader, so don't circumvent the SM. If you don't like what you hear, talk to the COR, and determine a position to which you will hold fast. Eventually, this will have to lead to the scout. But my take is that this should be resolved before any paperwork is signed or a EBoR is called. As has been mentioned the "Belief in God statement" is a condition of membership, not rank advancement. Do not turn a blind eye and push this to a committee reviewing the scout for Eagle; to send it there is making the statement that you do not accept the "Belief in God statement" to be relevant. I am not suggesting you take the high road here. This must be handled very tactfully and thoughtfully. Don't rush here. It is, however something which must be addressed. My prayers are with you and your scout.

I am always amazed to be shocked by the high-handed, pompus and ludicrous behavior of some pack leaders. No this is not BSA policy. It is those leaders who make such statements who should have their applications denied. Do what you can to get that dad to a pack who wants to work with children, rather than create their own Cub Scout "club." And kudos to that single parent dad who is doing what he can to get his son involved in a meaningful, productive activity. The motto of Cub Scouts is "Do your best"; not "We don't think your best meets our standards, so leave now and don't come back."

We have a spool of #4 (.8mm) whipping twine. This slick "string" is easy to work with, but you must pull it very tight in order to make it work. This is good on anything up to about 9/16". http://www.westmarine.com/1/1/8106-whipping-twine-white-4-med-0-8mm-295l-from-fse-robline.html# Scouts make a big deal out of whipping, and we work hard to de-bunk that. We teach the 3 primary methods of whipping. I can easily cut and whip the end of a manilla rope in under 60 seconds, using a simple whipping. Some scouts like the West Country whipping, do not do that with the above mentioned twine, as it is too slick to get a good binding. For that, try a simple string of a small diameter. For our older scouts, we recomend encouarage them to use a sailmakers whipping (also called a bound whipping). It is neat and extremely secure. Whipping is a staple skill, and we encourage our scouts to master this and continually repeat the process over and over. That is the best way to learn. Our more skilled scouts do this without much thought.

There are actually people at national?!? I thougth that was the myth.

Our church charters a troop and 2 packs. We do not treat the packs as "feeders." We actively go out and recruit every Webelos who might be interested in joining the troop. Last year's Webelos leader from one pack (who is a good friend) went to another troop because his son had a great time camping with them. Good for him! All boys may join the troop of their choice. It is up to us (adults and youth) to offer a program for scouts in which they will grab and hold their attention.