Buffalo Skipper

Meat is an intersting topic. It might be fun to consider less common meats as part of the challenge. Lamb, rather than beef, or venison or other gamey protein. Instead of chicken, try something like duck or goose. Consider what is available in your area. Ostrich, if you can get it would be quiet a lot of fun. Avoid bison, that would just be wrong, though Bobwhite (the other white meat) certainly be all right.

I was doing some online research on Bill Hillcourt (Vilhelm Hans Bjerregaard Jensen), and I came across a reference to an intitative called "All Out for Scouting." As best I can see, this was a program which was meant as a return the old standards of scouting following the changes of the 60s and 70s, and roughly coincided with the release of Hillcourt's 9th edition of the Boy Scout Handbook (1979). I was a scout in 1979, but I do not believe I ever owned a copy of the 9th edition (I joined in 1977 and do not recall ever purchasing an updated handbook). Does anyone have any information on what changes were in this book and/or have any information on "All Out for Scouting"? I cannot find anything specific online.

Here are a few of my tried and true backpacking recipes which I really enjoy, but only the 3rd is perfect for a Jetboil. If you want to do one with a Jetboil, try the breakfast, but how about the first two with a traditional stove, simple: 1) Chicken & Dumplings 2 envelopes Lipton's Cream of Chicken Cup-o-soup 1 can Swanson's Chunk Chicken Meat pkg Mixed freeze-dried vegetables 1 cup Bisquick in a zip-lock bag 2 - 3 cups Water Mix the soup, chicken meat and vegetables in a relatively deep pot with 2 to 3 cups water. Place on camp stove. Heat to simmering, stirring occasionally. While soup stuff is heating, add water (see Bisquick box instructions for qty.) to Bisquick and knead in the zip-lock bag. When soup stuff is hot, tear off a corner of the bag and squeeze out plops of Bisquick into the pot. Cover and cook for about 10 mintues on low heat. 2)Couscous Chicken Vegetable Casserole 1 lg can mixed chicken C dehydrated veggies (broccoli, carrots, peas or corn) 1 tsp dried minced onion (optional) C Stuffing mix (optional for thickening) C Couscous 1 package Lipton cream of chicken soup mix Add 1 C water, dehydrated veggies and liquid from chicken and bring to a boil. Add remaining ingredients and return to a low simmer for 1 -2 minutes remove from heat. Cover and let stand 5-10 minutes. Plus fat: Add 2 T margarine/oil 3) For a change from the typical granola or oatmeal breakfast, try Sunrise Spuds a high energy breakfast that is a staple in many backpacking cookbooks. What you need to make one serving: - 1 plastic sandwich bag - 1 cup dehydrated potato flakes - 2 tablespoons dry milk powder - cup powdered cheese - 1 teaspoon parsley - 2 tablespoons of imitation/pre-cooked bacon bits - 1 teaspoon powdered butter - salt - pepper To prepare before your trip: measure 1 cup of dehydrated potato flakes into a plastic bag. Add in other ingredients. To make while camping: Boil water. Add hot water to the mixture until desired consistency is achieved. Recommended Substitute: Use IdahoanTM brand Yukon Gold buttery potatoes follow directions and add cheese, real bacon, butter and/or parsley as desired. Serves 2 (this particular product produces uniquely tasty potatoes and uses only water. Easy!)

I am a strong believer in the Green Bar method. It is an updated method based upon Bill Hillcourt's training programs. Here is the link: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm This training is meant to reinforce the Patrol Method. All the information is right there. I cannot recommend this material strongly enough! It is the most comprehensive troop/patrol level training program out there.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

AlabamaDan, Our pack does an overnighter every year. Call Dominos Pizza for dinner. They will let you pay with plastic over the phone and will deliver to the boat. We charge $5 per dad/cub and cover our cost fine. They let us eat in the Wardroom, so long as we cleaned up our whole mess. It will be a great time! There is plenty to explore. Capture the flag is good. There are several rooms with movies (historical footage regarding the boat), and there is plenty to see. Last time I went it was in the low 20s outside, but it was toasty in the quarters. Expect three high berths, 100+ to a room 2 levels forward on the boat and one aft. Our kids stayed up until 11pm or so and then crashed. You will need to be out early, but you can see the airplanes and the submarine USS Drum in the morning Remember they are cub scouts, so letting the run wild (with dads and/or in small groups) is just fine. Too much structure and they will get bored. If you take off the time for dinner, you will only have 3 or so hours to run around, but let them. It will wear them out. Have fun! For Guy, the USS Alabama was one of 3 ships of this type/size built: USS Alabama, Massachusetts, and South Dakota. They were "Pocket" battleships, built to the standards of the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922, which limited capital ships to 35,000 tons. These three ships are only about half the size of the famed Iowa class battleships of WW II.

I am with you John. In fact, our troop takes advantage of the summer break, when kids are out of school to ramp UP our troop's activities. Of course we went to summmer camp, but for our other summer campouts, we extended them beyond the regular 2 nights. One was a 3 nighter (caving and canoeing), and the other ended up being a 4 nighter (5 full days on the Suwannee River!). Additionally, the PLC (with committee assistance) organized extra activities, including a Surfing Day and a river clean up (with free canoes!). Finally, we had 3 troop meetings at the college pool (across the street from our regular meeting place). Overall, it was a busy summer, and the PLC is planning for another one this year. We had also planned a day-sailing outing, but that fell through. This year we have a sailboat owner on the committee (who used to own a sailing school), so we may be able to pull that off as either a PLC or a troop activity. Summer on the Gulf Coast can be hot. Days with highs below 90F are rare and humidity is always up there as well, so the abundance of aquatic activities is understandable. For the same reason, we ususally do a summer camp in the higher (read cooler) altiudes of the southern Appalachians to seek some relief. This year we will be at Daniel Boone, which, I believe, is the highest camp this side of the Mississippi. If scouts are on family vacation, that is fine. In fact that is why we plan so many activities, so that if you miss one, you can catch another at different time. It's clear that the scouts are beginning to look forward to all the extra activites we are doing throughout the summer.

I know I have posted this before, but I cannot find it on the forum so I will write it out again. I have a real story which I can relate about Webelos who choose their own pack. When I was CM, the Webelos den was had 5 boys; these Webelos had gone camping with two troops and had visited two others. All but one of the scouts decided to go to one particular troop ("Troop A", the oldest in the council), while the last scout wanted to go to another ("Troop B", by chance, the second oldest in the council). This last boy was a high risk of dropping. Minority, low income family, couldn't always get transportation (DL often helped), father in jail, you get the idea. The DL was very concerned about this boy's future, and wanted him to continue with scouting. Troop A was very close to this boy's house, while Troop B was much further away, and all his friends were crossing to the other troop. The DL tried to talk him into crossing to Troop A, but he boy said he really had a good time with camping with Troop B. The DL, a friend of mine, explained the situation to me, and encouraged me to assist. I was a committee member of Troop B, but I really liked this scout and wanted what was best for him, so I encouraged him to cross, not to my troop, but to the other troop with his friends. The boy said "No." I even spoke to the SM, who also talked to the Webelos during the required SMC. But he insited NO, he wanted to cross to Troop B! After 3 years, only one scout from the den remained in Troop A (DL and son transfered--military, and the others dropped). Yet that same year, the scout in Troop B made EVERY meeting and campout, and became the youngest SPL the troop had seen in decades. He is almost Life now and if he continues as he has been, he could be the youngest Eagle Troop B has seen in a dozen years or more! As I am now the SM of Troop B, I am very proud! If I had 4 scouts like him, I would have the best troop in the state. I am very glad he did not do what we adults were encouraging him to do. He followed his heart and it was certainly the right choice.

Actually that was a cut-paste from the website. In spite of being a SM and thinking that we have a great troop, I strongly encourage all visitors to make sure they let their son is a part of the decision process. I have seen many scouts quit because their parents made a decision for them and it was not really the best choice. Man I don't get no respect!

* Venturing Leadership Award (to show level of awards) I understand that this can be earned on different levels: Council, Regional or National. I also understand that each is refelected by a different color on the medal which is presented, but what device accompanies these levels?

Here is a copy of what I provide to Webelos leaders and parents when I do a "find a troop" presentation. I found this several years ago on another website (usscouts.org). Some of what is here is dated (15 years old), but generally applies. I hope it helps. ******************************* The following are taken from BSA Publication No. 18-251, 1995 Printing entitled Are You Delivering The Promise. Troop has earned Quality Unit Award Scoutmaster has completed basic training. Troop follows traditional troop-meeting pattern, standard troop-meeting plan with two or more skills training groups) Troop has a high ratio of active adults to youth. Leaders regularly attend roundtable. Troop meetings are planned at Patrol Leaders' Council meetings. Woods Wisdom is used in planning Troop program. A patrol for new Scouts exists, with a Troop Guide and Assistant Scoutmaster. Troop adds at least ten Scouts each year. Troop has annual minimum of twenty-five days and nights of camping. Troop attends a council long-term camp. Leaders are proficient in outdoor skills. Troop has at least twenty-one Scouts. Troop has a program for older Scouts. Other volunteers based on experience have suggested that the above not be applied rigidly as a test for a good Troop, noting that it is possible to find a Troop that meets all of the above criteria, but still fails use the patrol method. Others have noted that in rural and some urban settings adding 10 new Scouts in a year may not be realistic for a particular unit and not a valid criteria. Still others have suggested the following things to consider: Convenience of the day and location of weekly troop meetings, and Which troop a boy's best friends are going to join or already belong to. Is the troop run by the boys or the adults? Is there good scout skills instruction for newer scouts? Is there strong patrol activity or inter-patrol activity, like competitions or games? Are the boys just sitting around or are they busy most of the time? How often does the troop go on outings of some sort? Is it a back packing/hiking troop or car camping troop? Is there a diversity of ranks throughout the troop? All Second Class and Tenderfoot ranks will tell you it's a pretty new troop with no maturity in leadership. All Life and Eagle scouts means it's a troop about to graduate and disappear on you, and a troop full of leaders with no followers. Is there sufficient adult help around for the size of the troop? Have any of these Troops contacted you, or did you contact them? This means are they actively recruiting? Troop Meeting run by Youth - The troop is a real life opportunity for Scouts to learn leadership through participation. It is unfortunately a well kept secret that the Scout program is a leadership training program with the outdoors as a laboratory. Patrol Method Used - The Patrol Method gives Scouts an experience in group living and participating in leadership activities. The patrols determine troop activities through their elected representatives. Trained Youth & Adults - Understanding the concepts of leadership helps each person accept the leadership roles of others and guides them toward the citizenship aim of Scouting. Uniformed Youth & Adults - The uniform makes the Scout troop visible as a group. It shows each Youth and Adult's commitment to the aims and purposes of Scouting. Troop Meetings Planned by Youth - Patrol Leaders' Council of the Troop should plan the Troop meetings, campouts and activities. It is an important part of the leadership experience. Troop Calendar Planned by Youth - Ask who planned the calendar. It should be planned by the Patrol Leaders' Council and approved by the Troop Committee. Troop Calendar Published - It needs to be planned and published or it does not exist. Troop Roster Published - Look and see if you find someone you know and then call them. Ask them about the program, leaders and activities. Troop Monthly Mailings - Even the best calendar needs updating. Troop Program Explained During Visit - Each Scout program should plan programs that work towards the three aims of Scouting. Dues and Fees Explained - You should know how the Troop program is financed and what the money you are paying is used for. Find out what the campouts and activities cost. Troop Fundraising Assists Youth - We believe the purpose of fund raising is to help you and your son participate in Scouting. Most of the profits go to items that benefit the Scouts. Enthusiasm of Youth & Adults - If the youth and adults are not excited by their program, why should you join! Were you asked to Join - Not only should you be made to feel welcome at the Troop Meeting. How does your Son Feel - What was your son's impression of the visit. When he joins a program, you also become a part of it. There probably isn't a single test that fits all units and certainly no one checklist will be best for making your decision about which Boy Scout Troop to join. The best advice may be to spend some time with the Troop you are thinking about joining and seeing whether it is a good fit between the new boys and boys already in the Troop. Does the Troop offer all the things you think your Cub Scout will need? Will he have fun? Sit down and make up your own checklist and visit several Troops. Pick the one that is best for you.

Our recharter packets are also initially handed out at Roundtable. Our roundtables are fairly well attended, by Cub Scout leaders, Venturing Advisors, Boy Scout Leaders and also by Commissioners. We have an informational joint session for the first 15 minutes, where things like Recharter packets, FOS ribbons, sales commission checks, Scouter Awards and other various sundry things are take care of. Not to hijack the thread, but why would a CC be expected NOT attend roundtable? Our programs (CS, BS and Venturing) cover material applicable to most leaders regardless of position. Our CSRT even has a special 15 minute break out session just for CM and Committee Members. BSRT covers topics of BS program, and we have many committee members attending alongside of SMs and ASMs. The monthly district Commissioners meeting immediately preceeds RT, so any packets which are not picked up by units, are easily passed to UCs. For our district, it is easy to see the strong and weak units. Just go to Roundtable. Those units who don't regularly have someone in attendance are likely struggling, not participating in District organized activities. Our combined RT usually has right at 100 in attendance.

Ours are very close to Lisabob, but our dues are higher. Dues: $10/month One-time equipment fee for new scouts: $35 Typical camp out $20 (11 per year) ($10 for food, 5 meals; $10 for camping expenses) (one or two trips a year usually costs more during long weekend) Summer camp cost: (This year we are doing local camp, $165 and mountain camp, $270. Troop generally covers gas costs for long range to summer camp) Winter Camp cost: $100 Troop covers registration and Boys' Life for all scouts. Also covers all equipment costs (beyond the one time $35 equipment fee). Certainly we handle all award costs, and even most patches including patrol patches, but not CSP or World Crest; we also have a custom neckerchief which is paid (replacements are $5). We also have the unique responsibility (opportunity) to maintain our own building. The church owns the property and building, and pays insurance and electric; but the troop is repsonsible for all other expenses. Last summer we had to redo all the exterior paneling (replaced with hardyboard); total cost to troop was over $2500 but will last years, but we now need a new air conditioner. Total for this year: about $900 for everything We this is the first year (2010) we are going to 2 camps (long story) and we do not expect all scouts to do both, but many will. It is also the first year we have a council Winter Camp, which again, not all scouts will be able to make. Most scouts attend 7-8 campouts a year outside of summer/winter camps (no one made all campouts last year). With all that in mind, figure quite a bit less, probably around $700-750 on average. This year (2009), we are looking at having 37 troop nights camping (plus 2 more lock-in nights); 2010 may be up to 45 nights so you figure you get what you pay for.

As always, I appreciate your thoughtful and complete replies. Let me reiterate that this is a hypethetical discussion here, but I am curious about the real-world experience. Our troop is neither large enough to split, nor am I (or any of our leaders) at odds with anyone. I have for years laid the groundwork for growth in the troop, and we may become a larger troop in the coming years. I many of you talking of the wonders of larger troops (and I would like to hear more on that). From the early 70s through the early 90s , this troop had 60-80 active members, a large troop by local standards. I was in a more modest sized troop, which consistently hovered around 25 registered/18 active. Few of the places where we camp would handle a troop of this size, so it makes it difficult to conceive of where we could go to set up 25 tents in groups of 3s or 4s (patrol sized) and keep these 6 groups even 50 yards apart. (Sure wish I could hear Kudu's take on this). Even worse, areas where we backpack have small campsites, and how do you backpack with 50?!? I have heard many of you talk about "limiting troop size." We had one troop do that some years ago--a very healthy and stable troop (SM and I had been in the same Wolf den), which limited troop size. Both transferring scouts and new scouts were reviewed by the committee before being allowed to register with the troop; they kept their registered number around 30, and inactive scouts were booted out. I do not believe that this is a healthy way to run a troop, as scouting should be open to all, and troops should not be some private "boys' camping club." I know of 3 webelos who quit scouting after being turned down for this troop, and I wonder how many more were lost because of this troop's policy. Sorry, I don't want to limit troop size, but neither will I tell a scout "we don't need you, go play somewhere else." One last question about large troops (say 60+), how do you maintain a patrol integrity on campouts, especially where you are in smallish campsites? I am curious to hear about how your larger troops run.

In the original thread, it was suggested that that if the Scoutmaster has to delegate certain responsiblities due to the number of scouts, it may be time to split the troop. If the Scoutmaster has to delegate those, it's time to look at splitting the Troop, it's too big! I've seen, out in a server farm somewhere, several different Commish College theses which say the correct high-end youth count shouldn't be more than 50 kids. There is certain to be some division here amongst us scouters, but I don't want to turn this into a slam on large troops, but it is something I have not seen discussed here. So, at what point should the leadership begin considering dividing a troop? John suggested 50. I have read Aids to Scoutmastership in which BP has a section entitled "One Reason Why a Troop Should not Exceed 32." I agree with BP's ideas here, for the most part, but I look to a slightly larger number, say 40 to 45. (My thought is that the larger number allows for 2 healthy troops of 20+, rather than the smaller 16, which would only be 2 patrols; BP does not at all discuss splitting a troop, only not going over 32.) What are your thoughts on this?

Our district camporees have taken a different turn the past few years. Our camporees are organized and run by the SPLs. The SPLs meet monthly at roundtable (they have their own roundtable). The fall camporee is a Renaissance theme. We are having chariot races, jousting, a pheasant (chicken for dinner or eggs for breakfast) cooking competition (dutch oven), and of course a catapult fling. There are only about 10 events, so it will be pretty low key. Last fall, we had a council encampment (1st in over a decade) and it was run by the OA. Well done and a big hit! This spring is the Centennial encampment, which appears to be adult run. It will be at a neighboring city's fairgrounds which will be very visible, which appears to be the point. Looks to me like it will be very adult organized. I need to ask more about how youth run it will be.

January 1, 2010. However, I was in the scout store a few weeks ago, and the POR insignia are in stock. I think it would be OK to have scouts in these positions, but I would be reluctant to count the time as POR for rank until January 1, when these become official.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

One of our older scouts (now 18 and an ASM) a few years ago when he was SPL was really put off by the language of his fellow scouts. After one string of expletives, he responded "And you go home and kiss your momma with that mouth?" I don't recall how much of an impression that left with the other scouts, but the rest of the adults got a kick out of it. We are fortunate that our oldest scouts (who are prone to use bad language) are not active, and our current troop is young enough that this is not an issue. Three of our scouts go to private Christian schools, and they don't really put up with that language.

One of our older scouts (now 18 and an ASM) a few years ago when he was SPL was really put off by the language of his fellow scouts. After one string of expletives, he responded "And you go home and kiss your momma with that mouth?" I don't recall how much of an impression that left with the other scouts, but the rest of the adults got a kick out of it. We are fortunate that our oldest scouts (who are prone to use bad language) are not active, and our current troop is young enough that this is not an issue. Three of our scouts go to private Christian schools, and they don't really put up with that language.

Here is the link to the progress award from the BSA site. It is the 2006 printing, but that may be the most current. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34169-56.pdf

Interesting you should ask. Eighteen months ago at summer camp, we had a real problem with homesickness. This had been my first time with the troop (at summer camp), but the other leaders all said it was different than they had previously experienced. Out of 17 scouts, 3 first year scouts were very homesick. The camp we went to had a great chaplain, and when we could hardly deal with it, he stepped in and really helped. The one thing he said was never let them call home--it only makes it worse. We do not allow cell phones, and there was no reception at the camp, so that was not too much of an issue, but they did want to call from the pay phone at the office. The got over it and we have not had any more trouble. No problems at this year's summer camp. We just had a scout transfer in from another troop. A 12 year old Star. He went camping with us for the first time two weeks ago, and he ended up very wet eyed and homesick, coming to the adults once each night. We reassured him, distracted him, and made him laugh; but most of all we reassured him. Not to get on a tangent about this scout, but he has good skills for a 12 yo Star, so I was initially surprised by this. As I though about it though, I realized that his parents were very active with the other troop and this was the first time he had probably camped without them. I spoke to them and have asked that they not camp with us for some time so he can make the adjustment. He is to go to NJ this summer, so I want to see that he is ready. I agree with evmori, it is worst during the down time, something we did not have at camp this summer, which may be why there were no issues. We would also work with the PLC to see that these scouts are engaged and active. Aside from these cases, we have not had any real issues.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

I see two main options here. First, if you have a mixed patrol (male and female) at an NYLT course (males and females camping in separate areas) then you loose the cohesiveness of the patrol. But you also must put a male and female adults with these patrols. At NYLT, you only have a handful of adults, so now staff can't work together, because they must be babysitting the boys and girls. The second option is to have segregated patrols (all girls together, all boys together) but again you will need to keep these patrols rigidly separated with adults. Like I said in my original response: I see NO benefit which comes from this. NONE. NADA. NICHTS. I just don't see the point here.

In the parent thread, there was some discussion about whether or not the PL should be on the duty roster. How do your patrols work up duty rosters? How are assignments divvied up and what duties do you have on your troop's roster forms? Is it effective? If not what is done about it?

I agree that the PL should be a part of the duty roster, but it has become the culture in our troop (maybe this should be on the "what arbitrary rules do you enforce" thread) that PLs do not cook. This is because for some time (before I became SM) patrols were complaining that they never were allowed to cook because it was only the PL who did it. No that we intend to make that a permanent rule, but one to facilitate the "spread the wealth" syndrome.

As far a youth protection issues, they would be no different than what's currenly used in the Venturing program. I both agree and disagree with this, but that is the point. Venturers enter the program in a co-ed environment, with those expectations. Boys from a troop (regardless of age) do not have that mind set. It doesn't make much sense to "retrain" them to accommodate one week (or two weekends) of activities, especially when, returning to their troop environment means leaving that co-ed environment behind. It just seems like this would create a whole new series of challenges for which there is no real gain.

I just found this on Fox news. Though many here would find it interesting.... http://www.foxnews.com/slideshow/entertainment/2009/10/21/celebrity-eagle-scouts-boy-scout?test=faces