Hawkwin

Wow, Girl Scouts are losing their heads over this: https://www.yahoo.com/gma/girl-scouts-slam-boy-scouts-decision-accept-girls-134608349--abc-news-topstories.html "The Boy Scouts' house is on fire," Girl Scouts told ABC News in a statement today. "Instead of addressing systemic issues of continuing sexual assault, financial mismanagement and deficient programming, BSA's senior management wants to add an accelerant to the house fire by recruiting girls."

@Tampa Turtle Regarding how they announced this, I am not sure how they could have done it much differently. There is virtually no way they could have shared this news with scouts prior without it having been leaked to the media. Any pre-announcement made to anyone other than everyone at the same time would have resulted in BSA losing the narrative. Someone else, perhaps someone opposed to the change, would have been the first to scoop the story and BSA would have lost whatever advantage they have in controlling the message.

Thank you @blw2

Please pin this, thanks!

Excerpt from an email from our DC:

I see that you are in NJ, what city? If rural, what is your nearest large city? I live in a suburb of a large metro area and we often work various sporting events. We sell merchandise, concessions and provide clean up. We make all of our money that way. Any popcorn the scouts sell goes 100% to their scout account. We typically do 3 major events a year. Perhaps there is an opportunity for your troop to do something similar?

What is the rest of the announcement?!? I've seen at least one, Middle Tennessee (on Facebook) that stated that they will not help in this change but will not oppose COs and their own decisions.

So does that mean you used to use some very large tents? 8-12 person tents? It is not uncommon for our Patrols to have double digit members so to sleep in the same tent would require a large tent - and one that would be rather difficult for new scouters to set up without adult or older scout assistance. Our patrols today sleep in two-scout tents so in that respect, it would not be a change for us.

I was previously a member of the 82nd Airborne Division, 1/504 Parachute Infantry Regiment. Obviously all male. Now, we have female fighter pilots and female Rangers (a privilege I did not seek). I also was against some of those changes - especially female Rangers as I didn't think it would work - that they would lower the standards. Turns out I was wrong. What makes it "ridiculous" [i would say silly and illogical] is quitting before any of us have any idea what it will look like. Why would anyone make a rational decision to leave an organization that they have loved for decades when they don't even know what changes we will experience? Sure, those that oppose this change have some strong assumptions about the negative impacts but if you are a rational decision-maker, the correct thing to do would be to wait and see the actual results. If you are playing baseball and you are losing in the 9th inning, do you quit and go home before the last pitch? If you are playing football and you face 4th and long and you are down by 5 points, do you quit and go home before the last play? If you are playing poker and got checked on the big blind, do you fold before the flop? We don't know the results. We do have many other examples throughout other 1st world countries where they made it work. If you care about the mission of BSA, then the appropriate, logical, and mature response, even if you oppose this change, is to wait and see the results. To quit now before anything actually changes is little more than a temper tantrum being used to try and tell BSA they are wrong.

Wow. That is like the exact example given in YPT - and the adult leaders have done nothing?!? They are #$ lucky it was not my kid that was sexually assaulted in such a manner.

Hehe. You might want to revisit your impression of Applebees and Olive Garden. 5 chains facing a tough year in 2017http://www.nrn.com/sales-trends/5-chains-facing-tough-year-2017 Imagine this: You operate a bar and grill chain, and in a bid to generate customers, you convince franchisees to spend big dollars on a strategy to improve quality — and that effort fails. This is what happened at Applebee’s, which launched an impressive strategy, with wood-fired grills and hand-cut steaks. But customers didn’t show up. Same-store sales fell 5.2 percent in the third quarter, with traffic faring much worse. ------------- Inside Olive Garden's incredible comeback [Olive Garden almost went bankrupt few years ago] http://www.foodbusinessnews.net/articles/news_home/Financial-Performance/2016/04/Inside_Olive_Gardens_incredibl.aspx?ID=%7B632597FD-229F-44F5-B23C-82F1F9505381%7D Key drivers of this performance include an improved guest experience delivered through proper staffing and the simplification of processes and procedures, culinary innovation that builds on the brand equities and flavor profiles that our loyal guests enjoy most, as seen with our successful flavor-filled pastas and create-your-own Tour of Italy promotions, and continuing to meet our guest needs for convenience with the national launch of large party catering delivery. [in other words, Olive Garden realized that it had to CHANGE to meet the ever evolving consumer dynamics.] More: “At the end of the day, what we’re doing in LongHorn today is we’re removing some consumers, some guests from the guest base that we are confident that we weren’t making any money on,†Mr. Lee said. “And they were a consumer that was buying a low-end steak, coming in with a $5 coupon, and that was all happening while we had a 45-minute wait outside the restaurant, people waiting to get in to pay full price for more of a higher-end experience in casual dining steak. So, we’re transitioning the positioning slightly, and we believe this is the right place to be.†[So Olive Garden was willing to lose some existing customers in order to be more profitable. Do we sense a trend here?!?] -------------- No one knows what impact this will have on membership, either for existing members that leave or new members that are recruited. No survey can really tell you that in advance. But, just like Olive Garden, BSA seems to be willing to make a change that might result in the lose of some customers in order to make the business more profitable.

What changes to the program do you envision that will be so terrible? The first question I asked of the UK scouters is what they changed about the program when they allowed girls. Their response was "nothing." Regardless, BSA is CONSTANTLY making changes to the program. Merit badges are retired, new ones are created. Number of campout nights are changed, etc. etc. Just what do you think will change with the inclusion of girls? Please be specific.

OK UK folks, play devil's advocate for me. If you had to argue against co-ed scouting, what would be your primary argument? I am in favor of the change but would very much like to hear from those that have been through this, what is your biggest gripe?

Quite a few I would imagine. I was in a co-ed fraternity in college that was 70% female. We referred to each other as "Brother [last name]." My Girl Scout daughter has NO problem with it being called boy scouts. That is a problem parents and society would try teach her. She isn't born with such an objection and doesn't have it now. Girls of cub scout age won't care and obviously any girl that wants to join "boy" scouts has already accept the title of the organization.

LOL! Thanks!

Again, no one is forcing your unit to accept girls. In fact, it is entirely possible that not a single existing unit would change. This change, much to your point, simply allows girls to experience a group that, "teaches both boys and girls the same thing as Boy Scouts." No one is forcing it upon a group that doesn't want it. It is still BOY Scouts if your CO wants it to be. This is an OPTIONAL change. Not mandatory.

I am sure one of the first questions that comes up, what changed when you added girls? Did any of the standards get eased? Are there now more girl-focused (or girl stereotyped) merit badges or activities? What challenged did you face on recruit more moms to participate? What impact did this have on Girl Scouts?

This is the part of the angst that I just don't understand. If your CO doesn't want to change, if your CO doesn't want to allow girls, or gays, or trans, then don't allow them. No one is forcing your troop to change or to admit new members. I support this change but I also VERY STRONGLY support the freedom of COs to not change if they don't want to. If that mom wants her girl to be a boy scout and your CO says no, then it is on that mom and other like-minded parents to find a CO that will say yes. That might mean that they need to create their own. I am OK with that. And, I would hope you and yours are OK with that as well.

Great idea in theory but how would you handle leadership? Would each troop have their own individual required leaders or would there be a single leader? With such small troops, you might consider each troop operating as their own patrol of the larger troop. The Patrols could be named "123" or whatever is their original Troop number and the Master Troop could be the sum or some other multiple of those numbers. Perhaps legacy patrols named after the original troops so that the history can be maintained but I think the Master Troop (as I am calling it) would have a very hard time splitting into three in the future. For example, which Patrol troop would the new recruits join? Who would decide that, the Patrol/Troops, the applicant? If everything is the same and with such small troops, one "Patrol" could quickly dominate and take over the other two based on unequal recruitment. The other patrols would effectively lose whatever they had that once made them unique. As a new applicant, why would I want to join the patrol/troop that has 5 scouts when I could join one that has 8? Assuming I have friends in both, I would likely join the one with 8. Again, I think this is a great idea in theory and one that could help save the troops - but not an idea that will ever likely allow them to be divided again in the future. And, in the future with a completely different set of scouts, they may not want to divide again. Boy-led and all that.

What is your confusion? The we are those of us that asked for this change. If you are asking me to list every single person in the country that wanted this change, then I can't help you. Per the news release, and assuming you believe it, polling indicated that many people wanted this change. I am calling on those people that wanted this to step up to the plate and own it. "We" asked for it now we should not simply sit back and put it on the shoulders of the current leaders. We should do our part to make it work by helping to recruit new volunteers. If anything, I would think those that DON'T support this change would appreciate the fact that I am taking the initiative to make this ask of the supporters. The fee increase was to rebuild the litigation fund. BSA has been sued for millions annually and the membership fee increase will be totally used to help rebuild that fund. I have no insight and it would be of no benefit for me to speculate on the reason for those various law suits.

What is bigoted about this decision? Your CO has the complete freedom to remain boy-only. What difference does it make to you if a girl 1000 miles away earns her Eagle but your scouts never see a girl in their troop?

I would think the "we" is rather obvious - those of us that asked for this change. Since you did not support or ask for this change, I am not asking anything more from you. Simple enough, right? Edit: And as far as driving people away - it certainly might and probably will drive some away, just like integration drove some away and the inclusion of gay scouts drove some away. Doing the right thing isn't always immediately popular. It also might drive more to join. It will certainly be a +1 situation in my household. My 9 year daughter was ecstatic to learn of this change. I've already heard from another scout parent in our Troop who also has a 9 year old daughter that is very excited about this change - and both of our daughters are currently Girl Scouts.

Hey Snow, it would likely be a huge benefit to all of us if you could make a few posts on how your local org has been doing this for years. Some of the pros and cons, anything you do differently, pitfalls, successes, etc. Those of us that really want to make this work could immensely benefit from your shared experience.

My personal challenge to every person that supports this decision - go out and recruit AT LEAST one new volunteer (preferably female) to make this inclusion a success. We asked for this, now let us support it. Take ownership of the success, or the failure.

Very excited about this news and also very excited to have both a son and a daughter than will be able to earn the right to wear the Eagle.