Hawkwin

? Can you elaborate on your beef? What has BSA done to suggest that it is exempt from going bankrupt? Based on what? Why all the doom and gloom? I am personally more committed to scouting today than I was yesterday and will probably be more so tomorrow. And the day after that, and the day after that...

I disagree. Please don't assign beliefs to me. We will play by whatever hand we are dealt, just give us clear rules at the start of the game. We have no desire to cut corners, especially when they are well defined. If a workshop stated, "You will need to complete XXX after this class and meet with a MBC for final credit," then that would be well within reason and we would comply eagerly (which is what we will have to do anyway). My quest for clarity is not a quest to cut corners. We could have easily cut corners for the Wilderness Survival MB and my son would have walked out with a signed card but we didn't. I am a MBC for Wilderness Survival but I wanted him to meet with someone other than myself if possible (as is the goal of the program) but I will be the one signing off when he finally builds his last fire, not before. Agreed.

It wasn't possible to seek their guidance in advance. You understand that right? It isn't as if we are told the name of the MBC prior to registration or attendance. Additionally, if the MBC wanted something different than what was written on the worksheet, then publishing that as part of the prereqs would have made sense, don't you think? Provide said guidance in advance. Again, the worksheet specifically referenced a resource to use, and that is what he used. As a MBC, why even volunteer to host a MB class if you know that you have likely set up your scouts for failure due to your interpretation of the requirements? It can't be any fun for the MBC to spend their weekend on a class where no one gets full credit. If this is not a good MB for hosting at a workshop, then dropping it makes sense. As I stated in another thread, my son also was working on his prereqs for Wilderness Survival for the same workshop. The prereqs for that class were to build a natural shelter and sleep in it (done) and to build three fires without matches (only two done). He left with incomplete credit and he was OK with that fact as he could not get his third fire to work (magnifying glass). He will try again soon so he can get final credit. My son said all other scouts also did the same (except for one, maybe) and also didn't receive credit so this MB probably needs clarity brought to what is expected if "sample program" is to be considered the same thing as "write...a functioning program." Sample means already in existence. Write suggests create new. https://boyslife.org/merit-badges/programming-merit-badge/ GET STARTED PROGRAMMING Get help with Requirement 5! Select a programming language for sample programs, resources, tips, videos and more. Use the dropdown menu to filter languages by industry. -----------------

Don't disagree - but "don't hate tha playa, hate tha game" is my motto. In this case, the req states, "It’s a good idea to seek your merit badge counselor’s guidance." Well, if the MBC wanted to give different guidance for the prereqs than what is printed, they certainly had ample opportunity to tell all applicants that they had to use a different source than what the worksheet states. My son would have complied. They do the same thing for summer camp when it requires an extra fee for supplies or when they want to impose an age restriction or recommendation for the class. We do have one Programming MBC the Troop so I will encourage my son to reach out to him. Thanks @ItsBrian

My son recently went to Workshop that included Programming. The Prereqs were: 1. Cyberchip (check) 5a. With your counselor’s approval, choose a sample program. Modify the code or add a function or subroutine to it. Debug and demonstrate the modified program to your counselor... The Programming merit badge website, http://www.boyslife.org/programming, has a number of sample programs that you could use for requirement 5a. However, you have the option of finding a program on your own. It’s a good idea to seek your merit badge counselor’s guidance. So my son went to the above link, found a "sample program" and added a function exactly as the directions stated. He also debugged and demonstrated the modified program. We couldn't get the counselor's approval in advance obviously but thelanguage of the referenced link is right there on the worksheet. 5b and 5c are similar. The counselor refused to sign off because my son did not create an original program. Nowhere does it state it must be original (it clearly states chose a sample program). I did not learn of this until the event was over and I wanted to be sure we were correct in our interpretation. What recourse do we have now? Are we correct or is the MBC correct? The MBC originally signed the card but then scribbled out their signature.

LOL. A bit of a tangent but your comment made me chuckle and instantly think of a scenario last week where one of my son and daughter's volunteer running coaches went on a short tirade about not asking her when practice was over and to not tell her that you are tired and you are ready to go home. Us parents looked at each other and giggled. She then went on to correct some rude/inappropriate behavior when a kid was talking during her tirade (same kid that said he was tired) and she pulled him up and had him stand next to her when she continued her speech. Basically the same thing as scouts - no one else talking while an adult is talking. I thought to myself and later said to my kids that, "I like her, I hope she is your running coach when you get to middle school." My kids, not realizing why I liked her, immediately thought that I had a crush on their running coach. Turns out that my "crush" will be their weekly volunteer coach as well as the official coach for my son next year. He may not be as excited about that prospect as I am.

Interesting. Is this not a domestic/American thing? My family has used one of these for as long as I can remember camping. We make ham and cheese and hot apple pies in them (white bread and pie filling from a can). Just did a quick internet search and indeed, the first entry I found was an "Australian" Jaffle Iron on Amazon.

Nearly all of the above seem to be a symptom of the problem and not the problem itself. The problem is that it wasn't fun. If the SM is a jerk, it wasn't fun. If the scout sees it as dorky, then it wasn't fun, if they don't like dirt and bugs, then it wasn't fun, not enough camping, it wasn't fun, A bully wasn't making it fun, I am involved in other activities that are more fun, the requirements are not fun, lack of leadership is not fun, summer camp was not fun. I push my son hard in scouts and there are many times I question whether he is still having fun. I know when he says he isn't having fun, something is wrong and either I need to change or the program does. Perhaps not enough Packs are asking each scout what they want to do to have fun and then designing a program (that includes the requirements, leadership, etc.) that emphasizes fun. *Shrug*

And here folks we have a specific definition of what is strong to you - and if THAT was listed in the requirement, it would be measurable. Since it isn't the verbiage used, "strong" remains subjective. I am in favor of using your verbiage, all of it, for the MB. But since it isn't the verbiage, another MBC might determine "strong" differently. That is what makes it subjective.

Ahem... Unless you can quantitatively measure what makes one swimmer strong and another not where both of them swam the entire distance with the correct strokes, then as the OP and others have stated, the qualifier is subjective. It is determined by the opinion and the interpretation of the instructor, not a specific measurement.

I don't think it will be an issue, to quote: Level off and swim 75 yards in a strong manner using one or more of the following strokes: sidestroke, breaststroke, trudgen, or crawl; then swim 25 yards using an easy, resting backstroke. The 100 yards must be completed in one swim without stops and must include at least one sharp turn. After completing the swim, rest by floating. ------------------------------- "Strong" being subjective, should probably be removed from the language. As long as he can swim using a combination of the above strokes for 75 yards, he should be OK. The strokes don't have to be perfect (Do Your Best). The float does not require the scout to remain completely still, just demonstrate that you can float without a doggy paddle or other active swimming method. I don't see any reference to his butt needing to be at any specific depth so as long as he can remain on his back afloat with minimal effort, he should be OK

Agreed. And, if there was indeed such a clamor for join BSA, then it should not need to change to accommodate a different gender. We should assume that they wanted to join because what we already have to offer, not we would somehow morph into GSA with more swag and camping.

I hope for both our sakes (and BSA too) that neither of us have to wait that long. I think we can ALL agree that BSA could have handled this in a manner where this level of ambiguity was not present.

No vilification, just confusion how someone can make an informed decision when we don't know what BSA4G will look like. As I stated, perhaps now for the third time, if troops are forced to have girls, then those leaders have my sympathy and support in their decision. Step away if it turns out as bad as some seem to think it will be but don't step away over the fear of what it could be.

There were girls at the Jambo last year.

If you write out a check to "Save the Whales" does that mean your a consumer of whales? If you are a consumer, what good or service is it that you are buying? I don't have the years of service you do but I can't think of a good or service I gained through my years of volunteering (and paying registration fees). My son and other scouts obtained a good or service but all I gained was miles on my car and bigger holes in my wallet.

I don't disagree, but how can ANYONE in advance of what this will look like even come to an informed decision that they can no longer function as a leader? Again, if BSA forces a troop to take on girls, then I both sympathize and support the decision of leaders to step away if they is how they feel - but we are not there yet. We have only the FEAR of what BSA might look like in 2019 and to make a decision in advance of that conveys that the decision is not about inability to function as a leader but more a dislike of girls anywhere at all in BSA. Quitting over a fear of how a policy will be implemented, not over how it actually works.

Except as adult volunteers, we are not consumers. Our scouts are the consumers. We are the instruments of the Law and the Oath. When we remove our expertise from this process, we are not deciding to buy a cheaper or better product, we are deciding that we longer want to help this group of youth learn the Law and the Oath. Quitting on our existing scouts might be the final "lesson" about the Oath and the Law that we ever teach them.

I am trying to understand why you would disadvantage your own scouts by removing your years of expertise from your boys and I just don't get it. Unless (and some say until) BSA forces you to have girls in your troop, then what direct impact does it have on your boys? Even if they occasionally see one at a District camp out, certainly your boy scouts are well adjusted enough to not freak out or behave differently. Have you always avoided the World Jambo based on the same concern of seeing girls there? I get (and support) that there are many scouters that do not want full coed. I don't want such a decision forced on you and for your sake (and ours) I hope that doesn't happen but if BSA rolls out a program that is separate, as they claim it will be, then what negative impact are you expecting to experience by having another Troop have girls but yours doesn't? Removing yourself from scouting seems to hurt your troop more than the fact that there are girls in some other troop.

Found it, thanks.

Interested! Please share a link. As is often the case with gungho parents, I just got drafted to be the Den Leader of our new girl Webelos Den.

I spoke to my council this week and all cub camps (day and resident) will be coed for all weeks - which is surprising considering just how few early adopters there are.

Is it a min of 4 girls per pack or per den? So far, my daughter's Web den has just 2 but there are some younger girls in the pack.

Not sure I agree with that being a "natural" occurrence. I think that such preference is a learned behavior, not one that comes naturally or instinctually. I also think such preference is likely more cultural than it is natural. I am in complete agreement on this. I don't mind if we end up with some sort of coed solution but I think gender-specific patrols and likely completely separate leadership roles will continue to be beneficial for both boys and girls. Agreed, to a point. I really like the cub scout structure of single-gender dens that might report to a coed pack.