Eagle1993

AOL, Scout & Tenderfoot all have the same knot requirements. To me, it makes more sense to have a new scout who earned AOL work immediately on the Tenderfoot version than simply repeating it for Scout rank and then again for Tenderfoot. They added Scout rank (requirements) in 2016. I think the rank makes sense for someone brand new to scouting. Awarding an AOL scout with Scout rank is an indication they likely already know the very basics of being a scout. Similar to the Military having Eagle scouts start at E-3.

I wouldn't mind requiring SMC at the transition, but don't make them jump through the same hoops. There is not a single scout requirement that expands beyond what they did as AOL (or could have done). Have them start immediately focusing on Tenderfoot vs redoing AOL. They can see the benefits of having another scout sign off on requirements while working on Tenderfoot. I personally see Scout as a momentum killer and a relatively boring introduction into Scouts BSA for someone who earned AOL.

It will be interesting to see what this change really means. I like your idea ... if 4th graders get a taste of Scouts BSA by having to earn scouting adventure and then AOL is really heavily focused on transitioning into Scouts BSA. If Webelos is just 1 more year of pure Cub Scouts and AOL is the 1st time anyone starts really preparing for transition to Scouts BSA ... the truth is that AOL transfer in Feb - May ... so that would mean only 6-8 months. Now, to be fair, I see many packs not spend much time on transition to Scouts BSA until late in 5th grade. So, on the ground, pushing AOL scouts earlier (in September) may actually give them more time to transition vs what many packs/Troops see today.

So ... I'm not aware of all of the changes. Some that may be coming ... Every rank will switch to 6 required adventures and 2 electives. It is not clear if this is the correct #s; however, what was made clear is every rank will have the identical # of required & elective adventures. Bobcat is no longer a rank, it will be an adventure that must be earned for every rank Webelos & AOL will be completely separate. Webelos will go to 1 year. AOL will be full focused on bridging to scouts BSA and much more focus will be on linking AOL scouts to a Scouts BSA Troop. If a scout earns AOL, when they cross over to Scouts BSA, they automatically earn Scout rank. I understand there are/could be other changes coming, but I have not heard of any changes to how the Pack functions or Lions/Tigers The 1st change listed in meh to me. I don't see much of an impact. The 2nd change ... not a bad idea to me. Scouts should go through the bobcat requirements frequently. Perhaps the uniform changes where Lions, Tigers, Wolves and Bears each have their own square. The 3rd change ... if implemented well could be a win. It should be operating this way already, but I expect it could help some Packs/Dens realize the importance of the this transition vs having it be 1 adventure. The 4th change ... I'm a big fan of this one. Earn AOL you should have done everything required for Scout Rank anyway and it gets them moving in Scouts BSA rank advancement. Thoughts on these possible changes (still just a rumor). Personally ... I don't think it is enough; however, I would like to learn more about the AOL change which could have a fairly significant impact.

I went back and hid the comment along with the back and forth as it distracted from the original discussion.

BSA financials released for end of Dec. Summary below of BSA's net unrestricted liquidity (combination of cash on hand + unrestricted investments). Dec/January is typically the peak and then liquidity drop as insurance premium is paid and income drops. Bankruptcy costs have been dropping but I expect that to pick up ... plus they will need to make some payments to the trust at some point. We will probably see 30 - 40M drop in their liquidity by August .. so down to $50-60M. Prior to bankruptcy they were at $240M.

The USDOJ brings the people's elbow (The Rock reference) to the Roman Catholic Church Ad Hoc, Coalition and Pfau request for payment. Easy read. Basically tells them they should pound sand. I have a hard time seeing the judge disagree with the DOJ. I expect a hard rebuke... Perhaps that is hope talking. https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/95089527-7d85-4e92-b5ac-57f1c41f9158_10944.pdf

In Duluth.... Brrrrrrrrr Great story!

Moose Int recommending termination of existing charter agreements not sure on timing. See attached. OC-January-26.pdf

It has been a while, but it feels like we are getting close to the end (or the beginning of the actual trust). It doesn't seem like District Court is pushing to overturn. In Purdue, the confirmation was September 17th and it took the District Court less than a month to reject the deal. I also do not see the US DOJ pushing hard against the BSA deal (compared to what they did in Purdue). I'm starting to get the impression that approval by District Court is highly likely. If they had major concerns, one would think they would push to hear the appeal more quickly. That doesn't guarantee anything, but the arguments put forward by the insurance companies seem weak (for the most part, they can still fight the settlement trust). There are a few claimants, but the vast majority seem to support the plan. This circuit already allows non debtor releases ... so, I just don't see much momentum behind rejection. That said ... there is always a path. I am hopeful by March we may see the approval of the plan by District Court. I believe further appeals can happen after that, but from what I understand, the plan would start being implemented after district court and appeals could quickly become moot.

I have heard recently that there are changes coming to the Cub Scout program. I'll hold back the specifics for now, but I am curious as to what changes you would like to see. It sounds like changes are in the advanced planning stage and are pending the closure of bankruptcy (hopefully March). If you were running Cub Scouts, what would you do?

It seems odd they only allow this for a religious purpose. It seems like that could be targeted by lawsuits ... like the state is establishing a religion by pushing non-religious institutions with taxes they don't apply to religious ones. Plus, it isn't just religious institutions ... it is that + museums. In my state, yes, churches don't pay but most other non profit organizations don't have to pay property tax. They don't just separate out museums + churches. The fix is even more odd. Why not other youth organizations? Why not other non-profit organizations? I'm glad I don't run a non-profit in Virginia. Having to pay property tax when you run a homeless shelter or food pantry seems wrong.

I don't understand. Why would religious institutions be exempt from paying personal property tax but other non profits are not exempt? Even the fix doesn't sound great. What about 4H or First Robotics teams?

I think this is why it is nearly impossible to predict where BSA will be in 10 years. Either Scouts UK or Scouts Canada could be our future. Scouts Canada - added girls in 1993 ... down to 21,788 total youth members. So, 0.4% of youth in Canada are registered members of Scouts Canada. The #1 search item I saw about Scouts Canada was "Does Scouts Canada still exist". UK Scout Association - added girls in 1991 ... 412,986 total youth members with 90,000 on a waiting list. So, 4.8% of youth in UK are registered members of UK Scout Association ... or 12 times the per capita youth that are in Scouts Canada So ... in 10 years, will adding girls result in UK Scout Association or Scouts Canada. Unless we have a leadership change, I expect Scouts Canada. However, with the right leaders in place ... we could be UK Scout Association. What would BSA look like: Scouts Canada path - Most camps sold off, 2nd bankruptcy, girls 25% of membership and BSA becomes a relic of history UK Scout Association path - Major increase in membership (perhaps 2.5 to 3 million members), 40% of membership is girls and girls out of BSA become key leaders in society, camps are full and maintained well, BSA seen as a great way to instill values for all youth. I'm sure there were great unit leaders in both organizations 15-20 years ago. Both drove scouting values. Understanding and studying the paths they took will be important to prevent a repeat of Scouts Canada. Perhaps as @yknot mentioned, some of the issues could be outside the organization control. However, the organization is still responsible for meeting the needs and wants of parents/youth ... those who do not will die off.

The council defense is probably flimsy. I would think they would settle.

BSA has clear rules that the unit violated. I'm not sure what else the BSA could have done to prevent this. Now, the council who owns the camp. If any council employee was aware of this situation or gave approval, then the council should be held liable. If it simply happened at their camp, without their approval nor seen by any employee ... then I struggle to see how they are liable. If all the council did was having unapproved targets, I struggle to see how that would be blamed for this incident. Unit leaders & CO ... could be held liable. How was the barrel not pointed down range? No safety official overseeing the range is disturbing. Ammo on tables happens all the time and is fine. Same with guns (though these clearly violate BSA policy).

Lawsuit filed against the council & BSA. Suit against Boy Scouts: ‘Pattern of failures’ led to fatal shooting of 11-year-old at Hawaii campsite (hawaiinewsnow.com) one of the Scout parents brought about a dozen firearms, including an AK-47 semi-automatic assault rifle, an AR-15, an M-4 carbine, four shotguns, and four Glock pistols. As children were shooting high-powered rifles, the lawsuit says, no safety official was overseeing the range or tables filled with guns and ammo. Carvalho was sitting in a chair behind the firing line, when another boy picked up the AK-47 and set it back down, an act that discharged a round that hit Carvalho in the back of his head. There was no magazine in the rifle, but a round had been left in the chamber. something the family believes could have been prevented had safety protocols been in place.

I'll start by saying I hope I am wrong ... GSUSA, seeing BSA as a threat, continues their focus on girl only scouting in successful fundraising campaigns. Those funds help them maintain/increase staff, increase offerings and help with advertising, keeping them the organization of choice for most girls. Parents looking at organizations see GSUSA with more camp offerings, more STEM opportunities and in general an organization that doesn't look in financial ruin. BSA leadership continue to struggle to communicate their vision & purpose. Prior supporters who were conservative do not come back as they consider BSA too woke. Progressive/liberals who left during Dale do not come on board given religious requirements & fight with GSUSA. BSA exits bankruptcy in financial peril. Debt payments to JP Morgan outpace their ability to pay due to lack of significant fundraising and membership stagnation. BSA quickly merges councils, cuts programs/offerings and raises fees at HA bases and registration to help offset their debt load. They stop offerings that are not profitable and nearly every activity is looked at as a P&L line item. (Offer this merit badge as we can make $$$, kill camping at this camporee as food costs are too high). This causes further disruption in the ranks and prevents a response to GSUSA's aggressive recruiting of girls. BSA enters bankruptcy in 2028 and loses several HA bases, sold to Elon Musk who uses them as Space X launch locations. Girls represent 25% of their membership by 2030, but membership is still at only 1M members. Colleges see Eagle Scout as less and less of a benefit and therefore, parents see less benefit driving kids to stay in or join BSA with a goal of obtaining Eagle. This further erodes membership numbers. Trails Life announce record recruiting ... but yet still at 30,000 members. GSUSA buys the Eagle Scout trademark. .... it could definitely go @Cburkhardtpath & I hope it does. I just think National Leadership is going to have to improve how they lead the organization as we are still in financial peril. Navigating the financial situation while addressing the needs/wants of millennial/gen z parents & gen alpha youth is going to be difficult. I'm not convinced they have it in them.

In my area, to get into the selective private middle schools you just need to ensure your $25,000 check doesn't bounce.

I think you make a good point and I agree, most councils struggle with their current responsibilities. I started the 1st girls den in my council and my daughter was the 1st registered girl in Cub Scouts in my council. It started with ~10 girls or so across several different grades. The biggest group came from a GSUSA troop that folded. Over time, GSUSA did a better job in my school with retaining Troops and girls decided to stay in GSUSA. My daughter ended up dropping out of Cub Scouts in 4th grade when there were no remaining girls in the Pack. She is happy hanging out with the boys, but also wants some girls present. We attempted recruiting, but every girl interested in scouts went to GSUSA (my daughter did as well). Similar story with our girl's troop. We started strong with some very active girls. However, it never really rose above 7 girls. They were adament, they wanted to remain linked to the boy's troop ... but over time, more and more dropped out. Most dropped out as they are very active with sports, rock climbing, dance, etc. and just didn't have time for scouts. Some had similar comments to boys who leave ... scouts is becoming boring (they don't want any meetings, just go out hiking, camping & canoeing). Perhaps if we had a 20+ girl Troop and the girls all had friends they would have stayed. We are now down to 3 girls (including my daughter). If we don't get more, the Troop will fold. I've talked through my council and many girl units have similar stories. Initial surge, then this decline. I am interested in a council by council breakdown of girls in scouts as the story may not be consistent nationwide. Personally, I would welcome the council coming into my town and setting up a dedicated girl Troop. Grab the 3 girls from the 3-4 different girl troops in the area to form a 10-12 member troop & recruit to grow that. I simply do not have time until I leave my current Troop ... which I won't do until my son ages out. But ... I agree, that is a lot to but on councils, so I fear we will simply watch this limp forward. GSUSA's dominance of recruiting K-5th grade girls will limit girls in packs and that is the main feed for girls in Scouts BSA. If you don't change that somehow, I'm not sure this will succeed.

Correct, most of the issues are above-unit levels. At the unit level, the program works well for girls. While GSUSA has a great K-5th grade program, it drops off significantly after which is where Scouts BSA shines. What would I change going forward? Just a few ideas .... 1) Councils need to be much more active building up Girl Troops. Perhaps even finding district/council level volunteers to help create the Troops. I have heard of several stories where girls in Cub Scouts had no Troop to transition into. 2) Support new Troops to help build up equipment. One girl Troop I met at summer camp was in sad shape in terms of equipment. It is expensive and takes years to build up patrol boxes, stoves, troop tents, dining flies, Klondike sleds, white gas stoves, etc., etc. I expect Councils could likely find equipment from Troops in decline that could be used by these new Troops. We need strong girl Troops in all districts and councils need to be more active helping to ramp this up. 3) National & local advertising campaign ... most girls have no clue this is an option 4) Tools and direct support from councils to recruit 11-17 year olds into Girls Troops ... most of our recruiting experience is at the Cub Scout level ... GSUSA dominates there 5) National working on corp. partnerships (GSUSA destroys BSA in this area). Many of these could apply to boy troops as well. My #1 issue is Roger Mosby. Seems like a nice guy, but not a great leader of an organization.

What is BSA's goal? I think the only way you can say anything is a success is to set a goal and measure against that value. UK scouts has 443,777 6-18 year olds in scouts and a goal of 547,000 by 2025. They have detailed breakdowns of this goal. What is our goal and a council by council look at progress to that goal? UK scouting has about 4% of youth registered (excluding waiting list of 90,000 youth).. BSA is about 1.5%. UK is at 87% of their 2019 numbers... BSA is at 50%. I struggle to see much to cheer about in terms of BSA youth participation. In terms of girls and the summer camps I have attended, the number of girls seemed to jump quickly in 2019 and haven't grown that much since. I typically only see 1-2 patrols of girls out of 25-30 at camporees. What should be done varies by council and unit. I believe drastic changes are required and most if not all of those apply to both girls and boys. It all starts with our national leadership.

For those closer to the case, any details regarding the hearing Feb 21? Looks like the Coalition is asking for $21M and Pfau/Zalkin is looking for $3.5M. Is this coming directly from BSA (who has around $80M of cash) or out of the settlement? Will coalition law firms reduce their 33 - 40% commission or are they simply double dipping?

This is not true. OA is struggling for many other reasons. One is council mergers. OA meetings prior to our council merger were a 30 min round trip away. Now they are 1 hr and 45 mins. OA ordeal used to occur at our council summer camp. Our council no longer has a summer camp. Service was at a local camp (35 mins away). That camp has been sold and service is now not linked to camps. Yes, AIA is one aspect that should be discussed, but changing that won't mean OA has solved it's long term role or relevence. In fact, removing AIA without lodge involvement could kill OA.

One issue for some Troops, including ours. OA election in March and our council doesn't have a summer camp. So, for Ordeal you have two opportunities. One a few weeks after selecting and one in the fall. If you have a fall sport (many youth) you really only have a few weeks notice and may have a conflict. Some Troops don't let scouts know until summer camp, so for those, they really have only one opportunity for Ordeal. This will give scouts a bit more time to attend Ordeal the next spring. Will it make a big difference, who knows.