Eagle1993

I don't believe AIS represents all abuse claims. My understanding is that AIS is one member of the TCC, but I could be wrong. I honestly think this is bad news for National. It may help with councils going forward if some of the claims are invalid. National is going bankrupt regardless of the numbers of claims and the BSA has been clear … they want/need this settled by summer or they risk running out of $ and liquidating. If the AIS & insurers fight back and forth, this will not be settled any time soon. I fear their fighting will end up taking months of discovery (if not years) burning cash at National and forcing them into liquidation. AIS (Kosnoff) seems to actually want National BSA to liquidate. He has been vocal about going after councils and insurance companies. I wonder if he sees the National assets as a distraction (, liquidate them so he can go after the bigger pots of $ at insurance companies & councils). https://reuters.screenocean.com/record/1587144 https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/can-the-boy-scouts-survive-a-flood-of-sexual-abuse-claims I hope I am wrong … perhaps there is a lawyer in the forum that can tell us this is great news!

IF GSUSA believes scouts, scouting is confusing and BSA has tarnished scouting, they can feel free to change their name to Girl Guides. In general, it seems like GSUSA does a pretty good job up until 5th grade. After that, we have heard from many girls who have seen their GSUSA Troops fold. Those girls and families know they are signing up for a BSA program, there is no confusion. I wonder if GSUSA is stoking the fires of this lawsuit and they are seeing news articles all over the place of the first group of female Eagle Scouts and are terrified of its impacts on their recruiting. After the court decision(s) and bankruptcy, I hope BSA & GSUSA can learn to play well together.

BSA is quoted as saying they are deeply sorry for the abuse and expects that any irregularities among claims will be addressed as it works toward a settlement to compensate survivors. My guess is they take the path as #1 as I don't see the settlement changing at all. Basically, BSA will give everything it can (or is forced to) regardless of the numbers we are talking about.

The average payout of Catholic Church bankruptcies is ~$680K per plaintiff. Using that average, it would be a $65B settlement if 95,000 claims or $3.4B settlement if 5,000 claims. Either number far exceeds the total assets of the BSA, even if insurance companies pay half.. For the BSA, they are in much better shape with option 2 above. They should offer their best offer they can while still existing and fighting to hold as many assets as possible … but should stay out of fighting individual claims. Why waste legal fees and add to bad press when the end results will likely remain the same.

At first I thought this might be good news for the BSA, but my fear is that it simply drags out the bankruptcy. It almost doesn’t matter if it is 15,000 or 85,000 ... the BSA only has a fixed amount of assets and most will be lost with either number The big money might be with the insurance companies. They historically have paid 20 - 80% of the total claims. BSA won’t have billions, even after selling HA based, but the insurance companies will. I expect they the insurance companies will also see this case as the first of many coming from the look back law changes. So they will fight every claim, even if it takes months to years. In the meantime, BSA will continue to hemorrhage cash. I hope the BSA can settle and let the insurance companies fight the claims separately.

Agreed ... This article, with only 5,000 claims, was estimating the fund would be on the order of $5B. Assuming insurance would have to cover 70%, BSA would need to come up with $1.5B. I can't imagine BSA not liquidating with 95,000 (or 85,000) claims. It's over for National. I fully expect 100% liquidation. Sell everything, including trademarks (good bye Eagle Scout). The lawyers will collect their fees and move on to COs & Councils. At Stake in Boy Scouts’ Bankruptcy: $1 Billion in Assets, or Much More - The New York Times (nytimes.com) Very sad .... I hope I'm wrong, but I'm just waiting to hear the news.

I'm not sure this is true. My understanding is that the pensions would go to the PBGC who would then be an unsecured creditor, competing with all of the remaining unsecured creditors. Treatment of Pension Plans When an Employer Is in Bankruptcy (friedfrank.com)

I love this idea. Allows Scouts to find their own path, but make sure they balance between the various scout skills, oath & law.

Does anyone know if abuse lawsuits against a CO have succeeded in the past or have they been successful with BSA providing coverage? I haven't heard any; however, even the cost of litigation is extremely expensive. The CO model has been weak for a long time. These lawsuits will likely be the death of the traditional CO.

Pretty cool way to introduce Scout Life. I wasn't expecting it until I saw it open.

I went to a college with a NA mascot. Before school started, I attended an orientation day. The student leaders brought us to the football stadium and there were NA protestors outside. We walked past and inside the stadium the student leaders said that our mascot was fully supported by most NAs and only a small group protests. They said that our NA symbol (not mascot) performed a dance and in a costume that was authentic. I was disappointed by the protestors and believed in the university. Fast forward to half time at the first football game I attended. Out comes our mascot. I looked at his regalia and was a bit suspicious. Then his dance started and I was shocked. It looked nothing like anything I had seen. After the game, I did some research and found the regalia as not native to our area. The dance was not authentic at all. Many native groups were not fans and I had been lied to. As a boy scout, I earned Indian Lore MB, I was in OA and went to pow wows. Had I not had that experience, I probably wouldn't have had the background to understand NA history. I'm not arguing that BSA is 100% correct and I agree they should relook at OA lodges, ceremonies, MB content. That said, I would not support eliminating all of it. I think teaching NA history and rituals is important. I would suggest BSA work with NA organizations and tribes. If a tribe works with an OA lodge on a ceremony, that would be approved. NA groups should help update our Indian Lore MB. The benefit to NA groups is a wider group that understands the history and culture of NA tribes. Again, I know BSA isn't perfect, but it was the only organization/group I was part of that helped provide exposure to NA culture. I would love to see that improve and not eliminated.

Our Troop is down the past two years; however, I think part of that is losing low/no attendance scouts from our roster. In the past, our Troop meeting attendance was around 40 - 50%. Yesterday it was well over 80%. We used to have some 1 campout only scouts … they are dropping. So, I'm not too concerned with Covid impacts on our Troop, we have been able to manage and I see the light at the end of the tunnel. The pack is a disaster. We are still going through recharter, but I expect we will end up down 75%. I just talked with a den leader who is dropping. Eagle scout, energized but has no desire to lead a den during Covid. He said he will return with his son after Covid. I think what attracts scouts to Cub Scouts is getting together, in person, working on fun projects, going on hikes & overnights, pinewood derby, etc. Advancement provides minimal to no motivation. Our school is hybrid, so kids get a ton of zoom meetings and have no desire for more. I told my DE that my goal is simply unit survival at this time (at the pack level). As long as we have enough leaders to get to next fall, we will recruit heavy and I expect within 1 - 2 years or so we will recover. I do think this will damage the Troop over a few years … but both Troop & Pack are large enough to survive.

I probably should have stated "there is a rumor that …". @gpurlee started the thread and if there are questions, I would recommend posting in that thread as he/she is more likely to be able to answer them.

I think BSA can and should remain volunteer led, but will be much smaller than the past. I think the BSA organization will need to resize (shrink) as I think society changes are a major headwind. I do wonder if there is a place for a paid staff led outdoor leadership "scouting" type program. I'm not sure, but do wonder. A program that would charge large per year fees + fees for trips, etc. It would be led by professionally trained staff (perhaps former scouts who were college grads with expertise in outdoor education, forestry, citizenship, etc.). They would run Troops/Packs/etc. One could even see Packs running daily after school programs … essentially taking the place of child care. Troops would be closer to how Troops should operate today, just with professional staff leadership. I'm not stating this is the correct direction, but I do wonder if there is a market for this type of organization.

19 pages of emails to inform all of the groups of claimants … wow, this has grown.

BSA is coming up with a new charter option. I'd recommend reviewing this thread for more details. I did see on Facebook that a United Methodist Church dropped their charter; however, others were indicating their churches were still planning on signing charter agreements.

If CO's have money, they will be at financial risk going forward regardless of wording. I question, long term, if any charter org would be really interested in the traditional model. Especially after they start seeing the waves of lawsuits in 2021 as the lawyers are able to start documenting Troops/Packs/COs/Councils. Once the pull the meat from the bones of National BSA, they will descend on the rest. The legal fees & bad press will be tough to handle. I expect the charters dropping now are simply the first wave. We had a "Friends of CO" that we ended this year. I talked with the individuals (parents) who were running the "CO". I asked them if they had consulted lawyers to understand their legal liability if something went wrong with the Troop. Blank stares. I asked them how much insurance they had and if, as leaders of the CO, they were ready to be listed as defendants in future lawsuits if something went wrong. Blank stares. I asked them why we didn't simply use a fraternal org … I was told "control/not sure". I began these discussions after talking with an attorney about what would happen if a scout got Covid at one of my outings (it went beyond Covid to any serious injury). He told me that we would sue everyone and let the courts work out the mess. After these discussions there was quick agreement to end the "Friends Of" and go with a traditional CO (a fraternal organization). I think we were lucky to have one, I wonder if it will continue next year. For those running Friends of Troop or Pack xxx COs going forward, I would be careful and recommend consulting an attorney and insurance agent if you plan to continue.

This looks new "Actively participate in the local councils annual giving campaign and product sales to ensure quality Scouting throughout the community. (ex. Friends of Scouting campaign, popcorn, camp card, etc.) " I wonder if the sales become mandatory going forward (like Girl Scout Cookies).

This is what I never realized until my last round of youth protection training. I had always thought the predators were simply scout leaders who had that perversion and acted on it. I never realized that many likely joined scouts with this intent in mind. I still get chills (disgusted) when I realize this. I will say, this knowledge really helped me explain to others why we must rigorously enforce barriers to abuse. I always thought there were two reasons (protecting youth from abuse and protecting adults from false charges). However, there is a 3rd reason … scaring away any sexual predator from even joining scouts as they see they will not have an opportunity and would be quickly discovered. One final point, I will say there are definitely abusers who are parents. I personally know 2 individuals that were sent to prison for child porn. Both were parents. In addition, my nephews ASM's husband, not involved in scouting, was caught sexually abusing two little girls he would baby sit. He was a friend of my father and my dad was clearly in shock. No one had a clue this could be happening. I think these serve as a reminder to me that the barriers to abuse must be enforced as you never really know. My one concern is that we overcorrect. I do not want any child abused; however, I also want youth to have opportunities I believe can mold them into strong adults. I am concerned that over litigation could drive many youth organizations out of business. If there are real gaps that could lead to abuse, they should be addressed. What I would like to avoid is changes that do not necessarily make the program safer, but are simply added to prevent litigation.

I still question if admitting girls was a response to the LDS leaving. The LDS had to be working on their alternate program for years and I expect informed the BSA of their decision well ahead of any public announcements. Giving the timing, it seems like the BSA added girls as they knew they would be losing LDS membership. Would be interesting to hear the details once they all come out. Covid has devastated our Pack. Our Troop shrank by 24% but our Pack will shrink by 80%+. I expect we will recover some next fall when we can return to normal … but it will take 2 - 3 years to get back to our original membership, if at all possible. That said, Covid & the lawsuits while massive impacts, may simply be pulling in the end date of the BSA. If BSA was healthy going in, I'm sure it could survive both. The real issue is that BSA has been in decline for decades. In my area, the groups that seem to be expanding have hired staff. Travel sports have paid coaches. After school programs have paid staff. Non BSA overnight week long summer camps cost $800+ but have well compensated staff, cabins and nice equipment. Their commonality …. no or limited time commitment from parents. Volunteer organizations that thrived in the 1900s are dying in the 2000s. I wonder if this is a symptom of 2 income households. Moms and dads both working and then are expected to both share in household activities after work. Neither have time/energy to spend with volunteer organizations (like Boy Scouts, youth sports, etc.). This isn't true 100%, but finding good volunteers is tough these days. I wonder if it was a model that worked well in the past but doesn't work well going forward and also explains the decline of the fraternal orders. Look at the rise in dual income households since 1960. While BSA membership has other causes & effects, I expect this was a huge headwind.

I do not believe any got Covid from this event. I was getting pressure from some adult leaders to move all online, but left it up to the PLC. In a split vote, we have decided to proceed with an in person Troop meetings for December. Outdoors with masks. Patrols separate & everyone socially distant. If you could do it, outdoor patrol activities sounds like a great idea.

Actually this is not fully true. The plan is that there will be a large pot of $. Once there is agreement on the size of the settlement, there is a panel that will decide what each victim gets. That will vary by the length of time since the action & severity of the incident. There will be vetting of the claims, but given the age of many of these, I'm not sure how much vetting could take place. I'm not arguing against tort reform (I think there should be reform & statue of limitations should be in place).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2020/11/19/boy-scouts-bankruptcy-abuse/ Having trouble copying quotes from the article. (Using work computer and copy/paste into websites is difficult). Attorney for insurance company is questioning if the law firms reviewed the claims and is indicating it will take time to go through the 95,000 248 of 253 councils have now provided details regarding their assets & insurance local council attorney indicating that councils will be involved via their insurance companies he also said that plaintiffs will not be happy as many donors & properties have restrictions, preventing disposition he went on saying he thinks they will settle; however, he went on to say if they fail to settle BSA and "scouting" will likely fail and most if not all local councils will cease to exist in current form plaintiff attorney is saying more people continue to call post filing deadline. He said this will cascade for years as they are now planning lawsuits against local councils, churches, fire departments, rotary clubs and other sponsoring organizations. They plan to sue everyone linked to scouting and these cases. Talking with my wife tonight … (she is fairly liberal so would generally lean against large organizations) ... She doesn't buy the number … she expects many are just looking for $ She is questioning why their parents didn't do anything if it was that severe. She believes this could kill many youth organizations … nothing is 100% safe and if that is the expectation, then nothing can exist for kids except hanging out with their parents.

I plan to carry on. I still believe in the BSA program and enjoy working with my Troop. I know there were sins in the past and we must atone for them, but if I think the work we do today is important and impactful. I grew up in scouting in the 80s and early 90s and it provided some of the best experiences in my youth. I want to provide that to today's youth. I hope BSA survives, especially with council camps, but will find another way if it doesn't.