Eagle1993

Our Cubmaster was thrown out of a liberal organization due to her association with the brown shirts of America (BSA). This was 2 years ago.

That is the $64,000 $3,000,000,000 question.

BSA should make sure their offer is one the claimants cannot refuse. Essentially, the lawyers on the other side would not see significantly more $ if they pursue liquidation. Lets say BSA decides they can survive without 2 or 3 of our 4 HA bases. They should include those assets in the settlement regardless of the judge's near term decision. Why? Because that decision can be appealed and those appeals can take YEARS. One example ... Milwaukee archdiocese cemetery trust fund (which was litigated against Jeff Anderson). The archdiocese argued that the trust fund is off limits in their bankruptcy as it was specifically created in 2007/2008 to cover the cost of Catholic cemeteries. Jan 4 2011 the archdiocese files for bankruptcy. The creditors committee claims the transfer of $ to the fund was illegal. June 28 2011 the Cemetery trust fund files claims to keep the $55M of their assets out of the settlement. May 25 2012 The creditor committee asks the judge for summary judgement to reject that claim. Jan 17 2013 the judge agrees with the creditors committee July 29 2013 the US District court reverses the bankruptcy court ruling March 9 2015 the court of appeals agrees and reverses the bankruptcy court It was then appealed to the supreme court who refused to hear this. That was a fight over $55M of assets. It took 4+ years and went through multiple courts of appeals. If BSA wants this settled quickly, they will need to give up nearly everything but their trademarks. Otherwise, they need a plan to last 4+ years of legal battles. There is no in-between and their leadership team must make that call now.

I expect zero chance this happens. - If you are in the insurance business and threaten bankruptcy when you are asked to pay out claims, what is the value of your product? Every insurance competitor would highlight that when working with businesses. - Most of these companies are publicly traded. I could imagine the stock price impact if their lawyers are saying they plan to go bankrupt if they have to pay a settlement. - The judge doesn't care if the insurance company has to go bankrupt. I don't know of any judge that would base a settlement on if the payer has the ability to pay. Settlements are based on the law and contracts. The judge would probably say fine, go bankrupt. You owe $5B. Now, I do expect the insurance companies to fight over the next several years to get as much leverage to lower their overall payout. Hopefully BSA can stay out of that fight and protracted legal fight. Kosnoff is fighting for council assets as he wants National, Council, Insurance and possibly CO assets. He wants the biggest pot of $ possible and likely believes liquidation of BSA may be the best way to get there.

For us, Covid is having a much bigger impact than the bankruptcy. That said, I do hope the bankruptcy goes away before fall recruiting. BSA/Councils shouldn't get involved. Let's look at it from Top down. How much can BSA really provide without liquidating. Let's say National sells all land, HA bases, artwork & investments and can create a $1B victims fund. Lets say the councils pitch in $2B for a total fund of $3B. The average payout by the Catholic church has been over $700K per victim. So, with a $3B fund, BSA can afford to pay 4,285 victims. Let's say insurance funds help cover some of this, so perhaps we can double the amount of claims we could cover to 8,500 or so. There are 95,000 claims. BSA's financial situation is not changed if it is 95,000, 50,000, 25,000, 15,000 or even 10,000 claims. They would need to see 85,000+ claims dropped before they could even consider reducing the victims fund. BSA needs to assume there will be more than 10,000 claims and simply focus on negotiating the settlement amount. That negotiation will be considered by the plaintiff team and basically they will have to decide if its worth fighting it further in court. The real financial impact will be the insurance companies. Lets say they need to pay out 350,000 per claim. They will care if its 10,000 or 95,000 ($3.5B to $33.3B). They are not going bankrupt (at least yet) and this will also be a precedent for other companies/organizations they insure. I expect insurance companies will not care if fighting this in court for 5 - 10 years will force BSA to liquidate. BSA needs to stay out of this, exit bankruptcy by making their best offer and let the insurance companies figure out if they will pay $30B or $3B over the next decade.

Correct, except the fitness requirements are in series. So, you cannot count the same 30 days/4 weeks of fitness for T - 2nd - 1st. The fitness is really the primary reason you can't go from cross over to 1st class in 3 - 4 weeks. I actually think its fine to allow work on the ranks in parallel. The vast majority of my scouts take 2 - 3 years to get to first class anyway (only scouts with a focus on rank can come close to the 12 - 18 months to 1st class). If this was done in series, only the truly rank focused scouts would advance at all.

Not counting how you actually squeeze in all of the outings, campouts, tracking for personal mgt and fitness. These are the time limits I am aware of. 30 Days - Tenderfoot Fitness 4 Weeks - 2nd Class Fitness 4 Weeks- 1st Class Fitness 4 Months - 1st to Star 6 Months - Star to Life 6 Months - Life to Eagle

Probably the best & only way to really consider this story. I was 15yo when I went for my EBOR and faced a crotchety old scouter who thought you should be at least 16 and preferably 17 to earn Eagle. He quizzed me on a number of knots & lashings until he relented. I think I'm becoming that crotchety old scouter.

100% agree ... anyone with a claim should be asked to provide information supporting their claim. In addition to false claims, it will be important, regardless of the final amount, to compensate claimants fairly and proportionally. Not all claims will be equal and the payouts to individuals should vary based upon the impact, timing, frequency, etc. of abuse. If someone cannot answer basic questions, they should not be able to file a claim. That said, BSA should stay out of this. They would lose on PR & financials if they get involved.

While I am pretty open to earning Eagle Scout early, I still struggle with the 12 year olds. The good news is that it appears he plans to stick with scouts, vs a 12 year old who would earn Eagle and drop. I don't believe I have met a scout, who at 12, would have the leadership I expect of an Eagle Scout ... but I guess some may be out there. https://yubanet.com/regional/local-boy-becomes-one-of-the-youngest-to-earn-boy-scouts-eagle-scout-rank/ The Eagle Scout project seemed to be a bit on the smaller side (vs what I have seen/approved in my Troop). I know the article says buying & installing benches, but hopefully there was a fair number of youth/adults to lead and some more aspects to the project. It almost looks like the benches cost $3K each ... He installed two park benches along the Wolf Creek Trail in Grass Valley. In addition – with the help of generous, local donors – he fundraised $3000 to purchase and install a third bench.

This is a good move. BSA should push the court to close out the bankruptcy & their portion of the funds ASAP. Let the insurance companies & coalition lawyers fight out the final list over time.

"redeployed as agreed upon by the chartered organization and local council." It looks like the CO cannot just go off on their own and they need to get agreement with the council. Are any CO's pushing back at simply writing checks to close out their accounts? I wonder how these conversations go.

I haven't seen that yet, but the push on recharter is much less than prior years. We are late, as always, but have seen almost no emails/calls/etc. (We change our COR annually which causes all sorts of issues during charter.) Technically the assets must be used for scouting (if raised for scouting). See below. Rules_Regulations_Sept20 (netdna-ssl.com) Council or Unit Assets Upon Dissolution Consistent with the Bylaws, in the event of the dissolution of a council or the revocation or lapse of its charter, the Executive Committee may, at its option, authorize the National Council to assume charge of the affairs of the council and continue operation pending reorganization or re-establishment of the council or wind up the business of the council. All funds and property in the possession or control of such council must be applied to the payment of the council’s obligations. Any surplus funds or property may thereafter be administered as deemed to be in the best interest of Scouting. In the event of the dissolution of a unit or the revocation or lapse of its charter, unit funds and assets must be used to first satisfy any outstanding unit obligations. Any remaining assets obtained with funds raised in the name of Scouting must be redeployed for Scouting use in the local area. Any assets obtained with funds from the chartered organization or parents of registered members may be redeployed as agreed upon by the chartered organization and local council. Any property or funds acquired by the National Council upon the dissolution of a Scouting unit or local council will be administered so as to make effective, asfar as possible, the intentions and wishes of the donors.

I don't believe AIS represents all abuse claims. My understanding is that AIS is one member of the TCC, but I could be wrong. I honestly think this is bad news for National. It may help with councils going forward if some of the claims are invalid. National is going bankrupt regardless of the numbers of claims and the BSA has been clear … they want/need this settled by summer or they risk running out of $ and liquidating. If the AIS & insurers fight back and forth, this will not be settled any time soon. I fear their fighting will end up taking months of discovery (if not years) burning cash at National and forcing them into liquidation. AIS (Kosnoff) seems to actually want National BSA to liquidate. He has been vocal about going after councils and insurance companies. I wonder if he sees the National assets as a distraction (, liquidate them so he can go after the bigger pots of $ at insurance companies & councils). https://reuters.screenocean.com/record/1587144 https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/can-the-boy-scouts-survive-a-flood-of-sexual-abuse-claims I hope I am wrong … perhaps there is a lawyer in the forum that can tell us this is great news!

IF GSUSA believes scouts, scouting is confusing and BSA has tarnished scouting, they can feel free to change their name to Girl Guides. In general, it seems like GSUSA does a pretty good job up until 5th grade. After that, we have heard from many girls who have seen their GSUSA Troops fold. Those girls and families know they are signing up for a BSA program, there is no confusion. I wonder if GSUSA is stoking the fires of this lawsuit and they are seeing news articles all over the place of the first group of female Eagle Scouts and are terrified of its impacts on their recruiting. After the court decision(s) and bankruptcy, I hope BSA & GSUSA can learn to play well together.

BSA is quoted as saying they are deeply sorry for the abuse and expects that any irregularities among claims will be addressed as it works toward a settlement to compensate survivors. My guess is they take the path as #1 as I don't see the settlement changing at all. Basically, BSA will give everything it can (or is forced to) regardless of the numbers we are talking about.

The average payout of Catholic Church bankruptcies is ~$680K per plaintiff. Using that average, it would be a $65B settlement if 95,000 claims or $3.4B settlement if 5,000 claims. Either number far exceeds the total assets of the BSA, even if insurance companies pay half.. For the BSA, they are in much better shape with option 2 above. They should offer their best offer they can while still existing and fighting to hold as many assets as possible … but should stay out of fighting individual claims. Why waste legal fees and add to bad press when the end results will likely remain the same.

At first I thought this might be good news for the BSA, but my fear is that it simply drags out the bankruptcy. It almost doesn’t matter if it is 15,000 or 85,000 ... the BSA only has a fixed amount of assets and most will be lost with either number The big money might be with the insurance companies. They historically have paid 20 - 80% of the total claims. BSA won’t have billions, even after selling HA based, but the insurance companies will. I expect they the insurance companies will also see this case as the first of many coming from the look back law changes. So they will fight every claim, even if it takes months to years. In the meantime, BSA will continue to hemorrhage cash. I hope the BSA can settle and let the insurance companies fight the claims separately.

Agreed ... This article, with only 5,000 claims, was estimating the fund would be on the order of $5B. Assuming insurance would have to cover 70%, BSA would need to come up with $1.5B. I can't imagine BSA not liquidating with 95,000 (or 85,000) claims. It's over for National. I fully expect 100% liquidation. Sell everything, including trademarks (good bye Eagle Scout). The lawyers will collect their fees and move on to COs & Councils. At Stake in Boy Scouts’ Bankruptcy: $1 Billion in Assets, or Much More - The New York Times (nytimes.com) Very sad .... I hope I'm wrong, but I'm just waiting to hear the news.

I'm not sure this is true. My understanding is that the pensions would go to the PBGC who would then be an unsecured creditor, competing with all of the remaining unsecured creditors. Treatment of Pension Plans When an Employer Is in Bankruptcy (friedfrank.com)

I love this idea. Allows Scouts to find their own path, but make sure they balance between the various scout skills, oath & law.

Does anyone know if abuse lawsuits against a CO have succeeded in the past or have they been successful with BSA providing coverage? I haven't heard any; however, even the cost of litigation is extremely expensive. The CO model has been weak for a long time. These lawsuits will likely be the death of the traditional CO.

Pretty cool way to introduce Scout Life. I wasn't expecting it until I saw it open.

I went to a college with a NA mascot. Before school started, I attended an orientation day. The student leaders brought us to the football stadium and there were NA protestors outside. We walked past and inside the stadium the student leaders said that our mascot was fully supported by most NAs and only a small group protests. They said that our NA symbol (not mascot) performed a dance and in a costume that was authentic. I was disappointed by the protestors and believed in the university. Fast forward to half time at the first football game I attended. Out comes our mascot. I looked at his regalia and was a bit suspicious. Then his dance started and I was shocked. It looked nothing like anything I had seen. After the game, I did some research and found the regalia as not native to our area. The dance was not authentic at all. Many native groups were not fans and I had been lied to. As a boy scout, I earned Indian Lore MB, I was in OA and went to pow wows. Had I not had that experience, I probably wouldn't have had the background to understand NA history. I'm not arguing that BSA is 100% correct and I agree they should relook at OA lodges, ceremonies, MB content. That said, I would not support eliminating all of it. I think teaching NA history and rituals is important. I would suggest BSA work with NA organizations and tribes. If a tribe works with an OA lodge on a ceremony, that would be approved. NA groups should help update our Indian Lore MB. The benefit to NA groups is a wider group that understands the history and culture of NA tribes. Again, I know BSA isn't perfect, but it was the only organization/group I was part of that helped provide exposure to NA culture. I would love to see that improve and not eliminated.