Eagle1993

To be fair, I think you can definitely see some lawyers giving up on this case and looking to cash in. They just want the check now.

Yes, for the lawyers, I agree. For lawyers, the best case now is a quick settlement. I am talking as a claimant.

Not really. Let's say you get $30K today. The court case has taken 2 years. Let's say it takes 2 more years. So, today .. you invest $30K at a 6% rate of return, after 2 years, you would have $33,708. So, even after paying 40%, the a $6,180 increase would be match your return ... so anything more than $6,180 would be worth it economically. That means, doubling the court case would require about a 21% increase in settlement.

Based on what I have seen in other lawsuits. I think it will depend on the case & liability. From what I have seen, a lawsuit could be filed against all of the following: National BSA (that will be dismissed due to bankruptcy) Local Councils Chartered Org Unit Leader(s) Individual Each of these groups will be asked to be dismissed. The judge could say ... looking at the facts, I see that XYZ has 0 liability and so they cannot be included in the lawsuit. Then, whoever remains, a could be sued. I believe either a judge and/or jury would then assign liability. I think they do this with precents ... like 20% parents, 20% CO, 10% LC, 50% National BSA. After all of that, then they could assign damages (and punitive charges) depending on state. So ... lets say they say $2M of damages only. So, CO would owe $400K and LC $200K. The CO & LC would owe that. Now, they could then sue their insurance company if insurance doesn't pay but the court would expect payment from them. Now, if the LC and/or CO go bankrupt, the insurance debate will be included in the bankruptcy.

I went ahead and moved these to the correct thread.

While I am not 100% on board with everything Mike Rowe says, I think he has a lot of valid points. We need someone, like a Mike Rowe, who sees the gaps that exist in kids today and how scouting can fill them. I would be perfectly happy with less emphasis on advancement/uniforms and more emphasis on exploring skills and getting outdoors, adventure and patrols/youth leadership. I bring this up as any group that is facing crisis must ask ... why are we here? I wonder ... what if we eliminate all ranks in Scouts BSA except Eagle. I'm not saying we do that, but personally, I could see how some bold changes like that could help improve the program and focus units/volunteers are areas more critical to the mission. In any case ... I hope there is a Baden-Powell or Green Bar Bill out there who has a vision of scouting in the 2020 & beyond.

I agree. I think the parties all want a broad settlement that is robust legally. Now, there is a chance, that the district courts all agree that nonconsensual releases for non debtors are no longer allowed, but I get the sense that the judge will push through one that complies with the law as she sees it today. Yes, BSA floated the national only, but that was a threat not a real proposal. I saw that as a ... well, you want to see how bad this can get ... I don't see that getting 66% of the vote. My guess as of today is that there will be a mechanism for LCs & COs to be included ... but the amount they pay and releases (who and what) they are granted may change. Crossing my fingers that magic happens this week.

The issue is that the Judge cannot invent/modify laws because there is no other alternate plan. There is always options of National only or consensual nondebtor releases. She was clear that she will evaluate statuary aspects of the plan, releases and injunctions. She previously said she had concerns and marked up sections. DOJ was clear that this plan is non confirmable ... it violates law. TCC has also been clear it violates law. The changes could be substantial and impact settlement amounts. While possible, I find it highly unlikley the current plan is approved. I do look forward to seeing the update later this week (perhaps in the form of a RSA). Note that even if TCC & most claimants join in (for example, Purdue had 95%) there is risk with including nonconsensual nondebtor releases. The only way to avoid fully is making them consensual. Otherwise, this will be risky (which may be necessary).

Really good input. I am very concerned about the debt load that BSA will face post bankruptcy that will continue to drive costs higher. In my school district, I attended the Girl Scout recruiting event for my daughter when she was in K5. Cost - $25 ... no unit fee. When the council person was asked about fees, they said they are MUCH cheaper than Cub Scouts and everyone laughed (this was before the more recent BSA fee increases) Uniform Cost - $20 Patches ... very cheap Fundraising ... they ask but no requirement to sell cookies (easy to sell) Minimum to start $45 Volunteer requests .. only to help your grade, no "pack or committee type roles, only 2 parents needed" Now BSA approaching a Cub Scout $25 New member fee $72 for following year + $18 for remaining year ($90) $50 Pack fee $7 Council Fee ~$40 Uniform Cost Fundraising ... ask to sell popcorn, no requirement (not too bad to sell, but much tougher than cookies) Oh ... and surprise fundraising ... FOS request More volunteer overhead (committee, COR, Pack) ... some benefit but also more overhead Minimum to start $212 Unfortunately, the volunteer overhead and increasing costs will hurt Cub Scout recruiting vs past efforts. Now, I do think a great national voice (think Bear Grills) that could generate natural excitement in scouting could help ... but has been absent from BSA for decades. With Cub Scouts not keeping up, Scouts BSA will start declining as well. As numbers decline and debt is high, fees will continue to rise. To me, that is the death spiral for BSA. How to avoid this? #1 ... Clarify mission, aims, etc. What role does scouting fill in the 21st century. Do parents and society agree that is a need. Personally, I think BSA's mission is good, but they need to really be introspective and agree. This could go from uniform through STEM. Evaluate it all. #2 ... Cut EVERYTHING that doesn't fit that mission. Spin off or end projects/side gigs, etc. that do not align to that mission. #3 ... Hire young, energetic leaders at the National Level that are active, communicate well at various forms of media, etc. Generate a national excitement in scouting and the values it provides. #4 ... Cut overhead costs aggressively. Merge councils, consolidate IT, etc. #5 ... Spend MORE in areas that directly touch units. #6 ... Invest in volunteers. Free training. Go after the 18 - 30 year olds (before they are parents) .. have them lead Packs, Troops, etc. #7 ... Be aggressive on directing scouts to "good units" and help strengthen them vs just adding more units. I'm sure there are many others. BSA can thrive; however, I am a bit pessimistic based on our current state and National leaders.

I didn't get the sense that the amount of money was the issue. The issue is that if there is nothing in bankruptcy code that specifically allows nonconsensual releases of non debtors. There is also a constitutional question (Article I courts vs Article 3 courts). My understanding and will definitely welcome input. In terms of the constitution, the Supreme Court is the only federal court established by the Constitution. Based on the Constitutional Convention, the SC determined that Congress can establish courts under Article III with judicial powers and Article I with legislative powers (regulatory). Bankruptcy courts fall under Article I. Their judges are not lifetime appointments (vs Article III which are lifetime). One concern raised is that Article I courts cannot take on Article III duties. So, when non debtors get non consensual releases, an Article I court is abusing their constitutional authority over Article III courts. This part will likely go to the Supreme Court. The other aspect of Purdue, which apparently is the bigger deal, is that since there is no statutory basis for a bankruptcy court to approve a release of such claims. Basically, bankruptcy courts cannot invent the ability to include powers they were not given. It sounds like the 3rd circuit believes the constitutional powers are there but haven't ruled on the statutory issue. I guess I wonder if the real issue is that if someone rejects the plan, they should still have the right to sue non debtors (so the plan is only for individuals who accept it).

Some, perhaps including the DOJ, seemed to think this is a waste of time. It definitely seems like they are headed to plan confirmation. If the plan changes greatly, I expect it will have to go out to vote again. In terms of beating a dead horse ... the reality is that the judge has not really ruled on any element of the plan. So, the plan is not dead and her rulings will help (hopefully) provide more guidance to get to a plan that can be confirmed. Given how long each vote will take (and the expense) I expect BSA and others would like the next plan to be approved ... they don't want to keep iterating.

Including the TCC? The sides were so far apart on financials and structure of the plan.

Looks like I missed a key update. Sounds like we may see an updated plan later this week. Will be interesting if it is a tweak (like $100M more) or a more significant change. Boy Scouts lawyer touts ‘significant progress’ towards sex-abuse settlement | Reuters

A lot of back and forth on discovery & depositions today. I wasn't following too closely; however, I listened closely to the judge & DOJ. 1) DOJ rep said that they have no opinion on the back and forth as in reality the plan is going to fail anyway. He went on a bit, but afterward the judge said thank you and no one said anything else. I was a bit surprised how confident he was that this plan is dead. 2) The judge said she has multiple jobs to do during confirmation. That includes the settlement, the releases and the channeling injunctions. Each of those have different statues they must meet. BSA lawyers wanted to know how many days in a row they could meet for planning purposes. It sounds like they are planning into March. My takeaway ... everyone knows this plan is going to fail; however, how it fails is going to be key. She could indicate the channeling injunctions are the issue or perhaps some aspect of the releases, etc. She stated again, she is not going to delay any dates going forward. She needs to make rulings to allow the various parties to get to a final plan. - My opinion on why she is not allowing any movement on dates/timelines. I was expecting someone to speak up with the DOJ made that statement, but all I saw were a few grim faces and a thank you.

I think it will depend on what they do post bankruptcy more than what they do during bankruptcy. If they don't change course and keep going down their current path, I expect they back in bankruptcy court in 5-10 years and they will lose most of their properties. I don't see them fading away fully ever, but they could become a very small group <0.5% of all youth and perhaps <1% of boys.

Yes, propane camping gas, which is mostly butane. Agreed ... but typically at Klondike our time (and number of fire areas) are typically limited. Traditionally we haven't been able to have fires outside of 1 fire pit (with 3-4 patrols total). We do have adults handle the white gas stoves.

"We are staring down a confirmation hearing with no final settlement agreements." - TCC

Judge said thank you.... interesting.

Feb 22 will be full day, Feb 23 will break at 1, Feb 24 full, Feb 28 already has conflict ... so no hearing the 28th. Attempting to understand how many days in a row they can go. Given # of witnesses listed, need to know if they are all going to be called. DOJ - no position on motion. However, DOJ says all of today assumes plan will be confirmed and it will not.

Break in hearing (I missed the first 50 mins or so and am only partially listening. There are dogs barking, people talking now in the background. Sounds like a "good dog". Now a baby crying. Clearly CO's have been concerned that their insurance is protected. They have other non scouting risks they need that insurance for. The insurance companies likely want to say it is being used without openly saying it is ... Will be interesting to see what the judge decides.

Very upset lawyer today from Roman Catholic Church. Basically, they are saying insurers are using their (the church's) policies to pay for the settlement. He said ... just say they are not being used and they are fine and insurance companies are refusing to say that. Also, several insurance companies said the term sheets of their settlements are not final due to movement in mediation. They can't be specific on changes. Insurers stated it is unclear on number of chartered orgs involved. Range is from 40,000 to 100,000 organizations.

One other point that I didn't see mentioned. Propane performance degrades a lot as temps drop below 20F. We typically use white gas stoves for Klondike. However, we found a trick where you heat a pot of water on a white gas stove (not boiling, just warm). Then, place your propane tank(s) in that pot to use the other stoves. It works, but we found just using white gas easier (and probably a bit safer) than putting tanks of propane in warm water.

To be fair, I think only 1 person really has a good understanding of what is about to happen ... and she does not work for the BSA. BSA, TCC, and other lawyers may have some guesses where this is headed and they are probably well informed. I expect the Ad Hoc committee is probably updated. Now, as you go further out, less and less is known. Perhaps a few senior leaders of each council are updated, but even then, what they are told is probably limited. So, what is known outside a very limited group isn't much. There is a proposed plan. If it is approved as is, then councils are protected. If it is not, then who knows. If I had a claim against a council, I would file a lawsuit now just in case the bankruptcy falls through (or perhaps hoping it falls through). We will know a LOT more in late Feb/March. If brought up during FOS, I would deflect to the DE (who will likely deflect upwards). Personally, I plan to contribute again. Yes, there is a fair chance my contribution this year may go to lawyers or payouts, but I've spent money on worse things.

Already a lot of great tips. A few more. 1) Go to the bathroom before going to bed. If you end up waking up as you have to go to the bathroom, just head out and deal with it. Yes, you will get cold for a short time, but your body will use energy holding it in otherwise. 2) This was mentioned and is really key. We tell our scouts to completely change their clothes before going to bed. They may be moist with sweat otherwise, so changing into dry clothes is key. 3) Pack clothing in large zip lock bags ... to keep them dry. 4) Open up boots/laces as they may freeze overnight. Once you put your foot in and lace them back up, they will warm up. Also, protect them from snow (don't keep them outside). Finally, we tell scouts to not worry about light packing. We don't do backpack camping in 0 degree weather. (Some Troops may, but we stick to car camping). So, pack heavy, bring a lot of socks, gloves and hats. Bring good boots (not tennis shoes). Don't wear jeans. Klondike is our Troop's favorite activity ... it is great if you are prepared.

There is definitely a balance. Too large of a council, you lose connection with the variety of areas you serve. Too small of a council, you cannot have sufficient staff to specialize in all the areas councils are expected to function (program, camps, fundraising, training, HR/legal, etc. Given the massive debt and severe financial distress BSA (and councils) are facing post bankruptcy, I think the only way to survival is mergers. Having a bunch of financially weak councils with camps falling into disrepair, lack of programs, limited money for PR/recruiting, etc. will lead to collapse. I think large councils while keeping local districts would be the right mix. It will allow pooling of resources centrally to manage back office items (such as HR/IT) efficiently while still ensuring program offerings meet local scouts. BSA can encourage this by increasing the fee it charges councils to charter. If they start charging $50K or $100K per council per year (to help pay off their own massive debt), councils will naturally seek out mergers to spread that fee across more scouts. In my state, there are 3 GSUSA councils but 10 BSA councils. You can tell the difference in terms of PR, marketing, IT, media, camps, programs, etc. My daughter has far more options presented to her from GSUSA than my son in BSA. The website, registration tools, camp guides, camp offerings are better in GSUSA than BSA in my area. GSUSA is far from perfect, but I have seen the other side of council size and see some significant benefits.