Eagle1993

Several years ago our Pack leaders silently went about ensuring only male leadership. We didn’t have an ACM, Treasurer or two deep leadership in all but one den. Our Pack dropped its enrollment by nearly 70% and went from a $3k surplus to a $500 deficit. Last year we only crossed over 5 and most of them have already dropped out. When I and a few other leaders took over we quickly identified the gaps in leadership and sent out requests to parents. A couple of moms asked me if I was open to having female leaders and I answered yes. It only took 3 moms added to the leadership ranks (all den leaders) to turn around our Pack. Our meetings are more effective, we are recruiting better than ever and our retention is up. Oh, and the pack ended up in the black. I absolutely agree that some moms (perhaps many) could hurt the program with the main risk of being too protective of the youth. Adding girls could make this worse. However, blindly lumping all women into this group is a mistake. The three moms in our Pack are more into camping than most of the male leaders. This isn’t saying every mom is a great fit and I agree Boy Scouts is a different beast than Cub Scouts, but the female leaders helped save our Pack, uphold the scout law and oath and haven’t changed the nature of our outdoor outings. Times have changed since 1916 and there are some great female leaders that help ensure our scouting program is successful. I’ve seen this at both the unit and district level. We should thank them instead of blaming them for undermining the ability to have male role models.

I’m working our Cub Scout Pack recharter right now (for January 1). “Moose/Rocco ... help the parents find their wallets.†But I digress. No mention of designating Boy, Girl or Coed. Just your standard process, but now required to be online. It was made clear to me that girls won’t start until September. I’m also concerned a bit about having AoL girl(s) with no Troop to partner with. Our AOL typical does one overnight (minimum) and a few other activities with the Troop. If we have any AOL girls they will be left out of these activities.

Brian ... it’s your call. That said a few quick things I think back to in high school: 1) I have more regrets on opportunities I passed on vs took. The girl I didn’t ask out because I was afraid she would say no (it happens, who cares and move on) or the time I could have been on the field during a World Cup match and passed (once in a life time opportunity). 2) Everybody thinks that their actions are the center of all gossip at school. Yep, you may get a hard time for a week. But the half life on high school gossip is much shorter than you think. They’ll find something else soon enough. Embarrassment passes, but I think you would look back and be proud of honoring them. You may even be surprised by some reactions.

We had a discussion regarding girls in Packs and Troops during our District Meeting. I brought up concerns of possible small den sizes and lack of volunteers. It was made clear that how we run the Pack will be up to the CO and Committee. If we want to have both boy and girl dens meet at the same time/place with two separate leaders that would be allowed. We also talked about Boy Scouts and the expectation based upon early CO and Troop feedback is that there will be some that run it as Troop XXXA (all boys) and Troop XXXB (all girls) that would have the same leadership. Clearly this won’t be all cases but as of now it sounds like they will be allowing us some flexibility. I think the Troop statements were pure speculation but the Pack side sounded a bit more baked. Not sure yet how we will run or interest level (based on sibling interest alone we are thinking 10-15% of our Pack will be girls). Our recent Pack meeting had 8 girls (siblings) attend and some were in GSUSA. One of the GSUSA leaders were also at our meeting (she is also a den leader) and they all remarked how different Cub Scouts was vs GSUSA (a lot more energy and excitement). No recruiting plans yet...

Do you have two strong den leaders? You may be better with a larger den under one good leader than 2 dens with one weak leader. We used to always split larger dens but we found the group that gets stuck with the weaker leader has higher attrition. We now have a den of 24 Tigers with four dens leaders. One is a great leader and the other three help with the breakout groups.

@@backpack. I think he used “ ...did just..†which is a bit different than “just didâ€. I believe 47 years is a long time even for the old guys on this forum (I’m not sure if I’m counting myself as an old guy just yet). As far as the great survey debate... I am 100% sure the organization that spent $400m+ to clear a mountain top to make a camp could have figured out how to survey all of its members (youth and or adult). They didn’t want to. They said so in the various videos that they only wanted input from those that attended their meetings. I’m generally in favor of this change but I don’t believe the BSA really wanted its members input. Their final proposal was nearly identical to what they had before the sessions began. I just wish they came out and said... “we are broke, girls have been asking to get in for 83 years so if your Pack/Troop is interested go ahead, if not don’t.†I’m not a fan of groups stating they are taking input but then clearly ignoring it. I’m rooting for this to work (for all units, both boy only and coed/girl) as I’d like BSA to be around for the future, but their role out of this was poor.

@@Gwaihir.... Years ago nearly all interstate highways had a speed limit of 55 mph. It was set during the gas crisis to save fuel. Nearly everyone ignored the speed limit where it seemed ridiculous. Sure, that meant breaking the law but when a law is created that is completely inconsistent with what the constituents desire it won’t be followed without strict and heavy enforcement. Eventually that law was changed and speed limits increased. If large numbers of scouts are jumping through hoops to get around some of the really questionable rules shouldn’t nationals reconsider them? That isn’t saying all rules are wrong. Just like the 55 mph case that doesn’t mean throw all laws out the window. Going 70 in a work zone or around a school are clearly not appropriate and you don’t see mass noncompliance. It simply means the reasoning for the rule should be questioned when there is mass noncompliance (or workarounds). For the most part I think Nationals has a pretty good set of rules but some seem excessive; I’m sure lawyers and insurance companies help set them. So perhaps they won’t change any and scouts will work around them.

Head to a state where it is legal (or add the green/red and white lights). Find a non motorized small lake. Pick an evening with a full moon and no wind. Cast away with a few friends. Stay sober. I tell you there are few memories as great as canoeing at night under a full moon.

I believe the Boys club had their charter modified by congress when they added girls. “To recognize the fact that girls are a part of our cause, the national organization's name was changed to Boys & Girls Clubs of America in 1990. Accordingly, Congress amended and renewed our charter.â€

@@David CO ... or they are more aware of the financial situation we are in which could trump their concern on the social issue. As they did not launch coed Troops I’m not so sure they are fully in the Democratic camp. Even on the gay and transgender issue they only moved when they started loosing $$$ (that was under Gates... a Republican). GSUSA was way ahead of them on that change. Last time I checked Randall Stephenson donated heavily to Republicans and nothing to Democrats.

Given this survey, does that mean 77% of Republicans would want girls kicked out of Venturing? It would be interesting to get the questions asked and I wonder if it was clear what the proposal was and the current status that girls are already in the BSA. if it is simply should girls be in Boy Scouts (that is not the proposal and girls are already in the BSA). @Col Flag ... to be clear “good†isn’t necessarily great and the BSA has a lot of work on their left, their announcement and roll out was terrible. Note that the margin of error on the cross tabs would be even greater than the overall number, so you are correct that it could still be negative across the board.

The only good aspect of this poll is that the next generation of BSA parents are in favor (if you believe the cross tabs). I think the BSA should reconsider their decision on branding and will need to work on an ad campaign. While the 18-34 are the next parents the 65+ probably donate the most $.

Looking at the 2016 annual report it seems clear the BSA is in some financial trouble. The Summit continues to suck cash, our net insurance is costing $70m a year (vs $40m in 2015), we lost $28m in net cash from operations (vs $6m loss in 2015) and then read Note 9.... the lawsuits being filed could cause “ ...operational impact on our program.†Just 1 lawsuit filed in Oregon is suing BSA for $21m. It appears we are selling assets and continuing to bond with the hope that Summit will take off and the we won’t lose these upcoming massive lawsuits. Our assets (think selling camps) will keep us afloat for a while until we sell too many and kill the program. The discussion around girls joining has been around for decades. While I think it can be done with a positive impact and will do my best to recruit those interested while maintaining our Pack, I think the BSA chose to include them to boost membership and save the overall program. I highly doubt this was done altruistically. Either way, what’s done is done and I hope that we find some new energetic volunteers and scouts with this change. I’d like to see us adding camps, facilities and programs while being at a loss of how to handle all of these extra volunteers. Perhaps this change will lead us there. Hope springs eternal...

The few times I came close to death was on an Snowmobiles, ATV and Jet Ski. Each time I yelled something along the line of “watch this...â€. Rule #1 in G2SS should be to stop any activity as soon as that phase is mentioned. Overall, I tend to agree with TAHAWK that there are plenty of fun activities available that can be conducted within the confines of G2SS. My nephews’ Webelos friend died at a Boy Scout outing as the kids were climbing rocks near a waterfall (he slipped and hit his head during the fall). Rules are in place for more than just lawyers. That said, I don’t agree with all of the rules and several (paint ball, laser tag) seem a stretch to be considered a safety requirement.

Absolutely agree. Note that volunteers already pay for uniforms, training and their time. As a show of appreciation of their time and guidance, we include adult fees as part of our pack fees charged to every scout (about $5). I have volunteered for many other youth programs/sports and BSA is one of the only that charges me to volunteer. $33 is not that much money and most adults would pay without objection, our Pack just thinks it sends the wrong message.

It was definitely for canoeing at night. It was a Troop (not Pack) during summer camp. The canoes were open to use outside of the merit badge times (at least that is how they were used during the day). The lake was small, you could easily paddle back in 5 mins from any point so no need to check them out. Plus, the waterfront director was yelling as we paddled in... that we are not allowed to canoe at night because "it is dark and unsafe!" I have no idea if the waterfront director made up the rule, if was a BSA rule at summer camps or if it is still in place there. That was the only year I remember him at our council summer camp. Just pointing out a case where I have seen a leader go overboard (in my opinion) with rules regarding safety.

I still remember getting blasted at summer camp when a few members of my pack and our leaders went out to canoe at night. Full moon, no wind, we were all in life jackets and all passed the swim test. It was an awesome experience and when we canoed in the waterfront director wanted to kick us out of camp and worse for our leaders. At the same time, I know a Webelos scout who was a friend of my nephews who died on a scout outing because all the scouts were climbing up rocks that were wet from a waterfall. Accidents happen but if the Scouts obeyed the sign that said do not climb that Webelos scout would be alive today. In general I agree that we have gotten too soft but at the same time we do need to make sure we don't put lives at risk. Perhaps putting in too many rules that soften the program may actually lead to more accidents as leaders get rule fatigue and start ignoring the real important ones. Finally, I also believe there is the legal factor one must consider. Could you imagine the lawyers and lawsuits that would level the BSA financially if they allowed a completely secret society that resulted in injury? Class action all the way. Emotional trauma. Perhaps even criminal prosecution. We aren't in the 1950s anymore and I don't think the 1950s BSA is achievable in today's legal climate. I do think we can get a bit more rugged...perhaps we can canoe at night, get kids swimming and even fillet and grill fish for breakfast.

I think the media and GSUSA also spread some false information that is causing confusion. The other issue is that their policy is more "inside baseball" and is difficult to communicate in. 30 second news update. People simply hear Boy Scouts now include girls... and then react. At the Cub Scout level the feedback has been mixed. In general, I have heard only one person who objected in principle of adding girls to Cub Scouts. Most of the conversations have been around answering why the BSA wants to do this and why would they keep dens single gender. The single gender dens has been a major sticking point after I bring that up. I essentially have to explain ... yes Pack meetings are coed, pack outings and overnights (with appropriate leadership and separation) are coed but dens and den meetings are single gender. Then I get the comments... so, why can't boys and girls go to the fire station together or earn their whittling chip at the same location and time... more comments start coming.. then my den leaders say they don't care they'll meet together because this policy is dumb. I try and move on to discussions of recruiting more leaders...they ask why as we already have a lot of den leaders. I explain the need for separate den leaders for the girls den. Process repeats. The final set of comments I get are negative comments regarding GSUSA. These go along the lines of ... I really hate impacting the GSUSA followed by a list of issues they have with the GSUSA and the fact that they believe this wil destroy the organization. Somehow it comes back to blaming the BSA. I try to state the GSUSA is a fine organization ... they stop me and complain about cookie sales and the joke of their cooking badge (apparently they are not allowed to actually cook). So in summary, they are mad that the BSA will end up destroying an organization they despise. Ok. As Tobia Funke would state "Let the great experiment begin!"

Our CO had a board meeting and passed s resolution that essentially states they support our Pack's decision to either include or not include girls. It seems like a common theme from several COs. I do appreciate that they are leaving it up to us as their involvement has been minimal over the last several years.

@@backpack. I was a Boy Scout starting in 1988 until 1995. During that time we had girl summer camp counselors around our same age and our Troop had a couple of girls that would go with us on trips to BWCA. I think the interactions were mixed. As a SPL I had to go into a tent and pull out two of my Scouts who were " just talking" with the girl counselors and not attending their merit badge clinics. That said, it occurred infrequently and when it did happen I made it clear it wasn't acceptable. On our trips to BWCA we were focused on fishing, canoeing and hiking. The girls were just additional members attending. By the end of the day we were so exhausted we simply hung out at the campfire, talked about the days events and fell asleep in our separate tents. Yes, I agree there will definitely be additional challenges. That said, if your scout leaders (boys, not adults) have clear expectations of their patrols and scouts, then it can be managed. I do hope they are able to keep Troops single gender for at least several years as I believe it will take the leadership some time to figure out how to handle these situations.

Nope. I'm just stating the this is one benefit that boys could have by adding girls to the program. @@prof stated he saw nothing great for boys. One could argue that helping to change boy's and men's views of girls and woman could be great for them. Now, I'm not stating that this is a guaranteed outcome nor is is definitely a net benefit for boys.

I was in band, church youth group and sports. I can say without a doubt that my experience in BSA provided an impact on my life that was an order of magnitude greater than any other club or sport. The leadership challenges and experiences far outweighed any single hike, game or concert I was part of. I could absolutely imagine adding girls could have challenged my internal biases. I'm just not sure if it would have taken other aspects of the program away to be a net negative

The one benefit I see for boys is to see peer girls in a leadership position taking on the same challenges they boys are faced with. There was a thread earlier on from a female Venturer at Jambo explaining several sexist comments she received from other Scouts in attendance. She handled it well but I'm actually more concerned about the scouts and boys who didn't stand up. Perhaps seeing more examples of girls from Lion through Eagle will make them better men. Or, this change could just end up an unmitigated disaster.

Understand and makes sense. If they think Troops will fully integrate (which I also think is very likely) their statements and concerns make sense. Also the initial response may not be the final one once all of us get more (any) info. As far as the FAQ and roll out plan I agree this was a complete miss. I was talking about this with a Cubmaster who said girls aren't allowed to camp in Cubscouts after this change. I told him I thought they were allowed if you have YPT and BALOO coverage plus keep genders separate. He said that wasn't true and that he saw something that stated coed packs can't camp. I have heard almost nothing from the parents in my pack after I explained the change. The leaders were nearly 100% in support however they are concerned with the impact to GSUSA. Thanks for your update ... it's good to hear our Scouts' thoughts regarding this change.

@@Tampa Turtle .... was it clear to them that Girls would not be members of Boy Scout Troops but a different parallel program? Are they aware of the Venturing program that has girl members? Is their concern Summer camps where girls can now earn merit badges? I know it's early but I'm wondering why they object to girls joining independent Troops. Their comments about learning from men... is perfectly fine but there are other Troops that have female leaders. Does the fact that other Troops having female leaders diminish their own experience in scouting? I'm just curious as this change definitely impacts existing Cub Scout packs as they can go coed but no one has talked about coed Troops (at least so far). To be clear... I'm not trying to argue, I'm just curious to understand their concerns.