Eagle1993

@Eagle94-A1 Ill see if they want to join this forum. Probably shouldn’t run that suggested experiment... I think it probably violates G2SS. 😀 I definitely think there is a variety of Troop cultures and some lead to boys being more accepting of girls than others. My opinion of girls in scouts goes back to the early 1990s when we had some girls tag along on our high adventure outings (not sure they were called HA then). We had a great time and all of the boys supported our SMs futal attempt to get them registered. The Troop we feed already has girls as unofficial members so I’m sure that influences the Boy’s opinion. I’ve talked to three SMs in the last 4 days. The anti BSA4G SM told me none of his boys want this. One of the pro girl SMs said all of his boys are in support and the other said all but 2. All live in the same general area and all in the same council... so I just find it interesting to hear the feedback. I may ask a couple Boy Scouts directly this Saturday when we do SFF. In any case, I think the COs should be making decisions based upon their long term strategy and goals. The boys in the Troop today will eventually move on but the CO will be present indefinitely. In addition, Packs should be watching this as well... they need to ensure any girls they add have a Troop home.

What I find interesting is when I talk with Scoutmasters. The scoutmasters that are gung-ho about adding girls claim nearly 100% of their Troop boys are in agreement and they have girls already asking to join. The SMs who are against this claim 100% of their scouts are against this and they have never seen a girl interested. Could be a great psychological experiment. Take a mixed group of scouts and put them into two different Troops. One led by anti girl leaders and one pro girl leaders. I bet I can guess the outcome of their votes after a few months... If you are interested I’ll introduce you to my nephews. One earned Eagle and is aging out and the other in a different Troop is on his way to Eagle. Both are pro adding girls. That way you can say you have met at least 2 Boy Scouts in favor of this change.

Do LDS Scouts camp in national parks, state parks, areas where Coed venturing units camp? What is the minimum distance between a girl and a camping LDS Scout? I’m curious as I expect coed summer camps to exist, but with some separation between boys and girls camp sites. I’m wondering where the red line is for LDS in terms of camping.

@Eagle94-A1 I think you bring up a great subject regarding aligning Cub Scout coed packs and Troops. One would think both packs and Troops within one CO and COR would have similar policies. If Packs and Troops are headed in opposite directions (one coed and one Boys only) it points to weak COR/CO interactions. We know that many COR and COs have limited involvement so I think it is critical that CCs between Troops and Packs work together. I would argue a Pack should not add girls before reaching out to understand Troop plans. If the feeder Pack includes girls but the Troop plans to remain Boys only then the Pack committee should work to find another Troop to feed that is planning to add girls before they decide to accept girls.

A bit more info regarding our Tiger den. We have two sisters that already attend those den meetings that are fraternal twins. They had already been participating with the den unofficially. By moving our loan Girl Tiger to that den we are looking to get those girls registered as well and form a separate den at the same meeting. Before Family Scouting this was a coed den with twin sisters unofficially attending with their parents. Now we have an extra leader there for the girl(s). However, I agree it will probably be a coed den after Family Scouting.

Initially it was 4 girls per pack as a den can be mixed ages. I know of a few packs that thought they were going to have 4+ girls but they didn’t come thru; however, no one is asking to have the girls that did register to leave. However, it seems like some of these packs did not have line of sight to having 4 girls join immediately. I don’t think this is widespread at all but they are out there.

Quick updates.. Had another den meeting. This is my first in depth exposure to the Lion program (in addition to BSA4G) and it is a VERY light program. That said, the girls can easily get through 2 adventures in a 1 hour meeting. I talked about this with the Bear den leader and she agreed that the girls are developmentally ahead of the boys at this age. Meetings are still fun and the scouts still need to burn off some energy like the boys, they are just a bit more focused. Our Tiger girl is officially meeting with the Tiger boys now. 1 Girl, 26 boys. They have separate leaders but for all practical purposes it is a coed den (if you call a 1 to 26 ratio coed). Found out that some councils are not enforcing the minimum 4 girls to start as an early adopter. While Packs cannot sign up to be early adopters after March 15, early adopter Packs can continue to register girls and boys beyond that date.

Similar question was asked to Nationals. Here is a response from one of their reps. “The objective is to ensure girls have a clear path for Leadership opportunities. A Troop of mostly boys may only vote for boy leadership keeping girls from having elected leadership positions. There is also a concern of boys not running against girls on an election thus cutting off opportunity for boys to serve in Leader positions. That’s why separate troops are important for program delivery.”

It is VERY early still. Both of my sisters are leaders in their Packs and both packs just recently (yesterday and last week) voted to include girls. You may want to talk to your DE, they would know which units in your District are discussing “Family” packs.

Speculation within the source community where this data was presented. I agree speculation has been going on here for much longer. What is the girl bear den called? “Bear Den” . What is the girl Cub Scout Pack called? “Cub Scout Pack” The point is that both girl and Boy Scout Troops could simply be called “Scout Troops” going forward as their programs are identical. The only reason I mentioned this was the source. But I agree it is still speculation, BSA4G is fine with me.

FAQ document indicates changes are coming for uniforms, Boy’s Life, OA, training (including Den Chief training) and various program materials. They also indicated there will be changes with United Way... Speculation is now going on what BSA will call the Girls Boy Scout Troops. Some are saying that both will simply be call Scout Troops. So you would have Cub Scouts, Scouts And Venturing. Who knows... I think the separate Troops will keep SPLs to the same gender as the PLs and perhaps ease the transition.

Thanks for clarifying. I don’t think I’ve heard of crossovers before a Scout enters 5th grade but it appears possible. Most of the Packs I’ve seen cross over at the earliest in December.

Oops. Posted this series in wrong topic. Could an admin move this one? Thanks!

Few interesting points...FAQ indicates boy and girl Troops cannot have the same SM. boy and girl Troops can meet at same time and place

FAQ document updated Program for Older Girl Update and FAQ 3-5-18.pdf

See attached update sent out today by Nationals to SEs. Family_Scouting_Overview_Presentation_3-5-18.pdf

A fifth grader approached us and council had given the ok. We made it clear there would be a time period where they wouldn’t be in scouting. In the end she decided to wait for the Troop option (I think that was for the best). I’m not sure if we would have had her app approved all the way through Nationals if we did go thru with it.

I think you need 6 months in after completing 4th grade ... which typically means earliest anyone should cross over is December. So they would have to wait ~2 months unless I missed something. I don’t think this would represent many scouts. Has anyone done the math to see when the first girl Eagle will be awarded?

It looks like Troops start Feb 2019. That should be early enough for most 4th Grade girls. 5th graders were not supposed to join but I’m not sure how well that was enforced. If they exist they’ll have to wait after this summer when they age out of Cub Scouts.

Thanks for sending this out. Looks like they plan to keep separate Troops but worked out a way to allow some of the overhead (CC, Treasurer, committee chairs, etc.) to essentially work coed. I wonder if they will force separate names for ASM and SMs between the boy and girl Troops under one committee. Good to see dates out there. While I would like to see earlier the linked Troop idea should cut down some of the overhead and allow Girl Troops to form quickly starting Feb.

Good advice above. I think the order of priority would be ensuring the pack is safe, then the activities are fun and in line with teaching scout ideals and finally the advancement tracking. The lack of YPT/Adult applications (background checks) is a concern. I'm surprised the CC wouldn't be driving that issue. Not much you can do now, other than raise the concern. You didn't mention actual den/pack activities beyond B&G. Are the pack activities fun, appropriate & well attended? How are the individual dens run? Do you see high attrition in the pack? If there are issues with the actual program the scouts see, then you are facing a much bigger issue then some incomplete forms & tracking software. Finally, I don't see advancement tracking as a major concern for Cub Scouts. Our pack uses Scoutbook and as CC I help enter in the data, but our main mechanism is simply having Den Leaders talk with the parents. If we miss tracking pins/belt loops we don't consider an issue as long as the scout completes the required ones and we make sure to track the rank advancement. As you only have ~12months left in the pack making lasting change will be difficult without recruiting a parent of a young scout (Tiger/Wolf). If you COR is active (to ensure a good future CC) but your activities are strong, then you may just need a member or two on the committee to help the paperwork issues above. If your program is also starting to suffer, that could indicate an issue with the CC and/or CM. Again, find that young parent that has similar goals and have them join the committee. Depending on when the CC will move on (assuming they are there due to having scouts in the program) the parent can take over CC eventually. That is the role where you can really influence and improve the pack.

The Pack committee decides what process to use for handling funds and it is the treasurer’s job to enforce the policy. They should not invent hurdles for your already overburdened den leaders. I disagree with the treasurer regarding the mixing of money, unless that is Pack policy. We have done this frequently (for example a leader to puts a $1k deposit for a camp then deducts that from his sons camp charge to only ask $800 in credit). The treasurer should be able to handle this easily in their ledger. Our treasurer, who is also a den leader and a senior executive at his Corp, has never felt the role was that difficult or time consuming even while working efficiently with our den leaders. If the treasurer is not happy with the policy they should take that up with the committee. All of this should be done with a good attitude. You are all volunteers and systematic conflicts within leadership can destroy a Pack. It sounds like your CC needs to step in to help mediate the situation.

I’ve now heard from several sources the plan is to vote on the proposed program for girls during the May national meeting. We should know the answer in June.

A group is maintaining a map of every council with early adopter Packs. See below: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1UMMudFUybRb5G2mun-tIQ7_jWU3_Lel1&ll=43.0890255520589%2C-97.97409562070374&z=4

Supreme Court has not been consistent. You can also look at prior decisions that focused on the militia as being the purpose of the 2nd amendment. Presser vs Illinois claimed the national government cannot regulate guns but the states can. US vs Miller “In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment, or that its use could contribute to the common defense. Aymette v. State, 2 Humphreys (Tenn.) 154, 158. The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. 'A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline.' And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time."' Constitutional scholars disagree. Liberals focus on the well regulated militia and can point to clear case law. Conservatives focus on the people portion and point to other case law. Even with recent decisions and the current Court makeup there is plenty of space for additional gun control. The Supreme Court just denied an appeal of California’s 10 day wait period.