Carbenez

UPDATE: The story has a happy ending. With the help and wisdom from people that read about the predicament faced by my sons, wheels became unstuck and the channels were cleared for them to proceed. My oldest son completed his Eagle Board of Review and his application for Eagle Scout is now at National. My youngest got his proposal approved, and his project was completed this weekend. Massive thanks to any and all who took the time to read and reply. My guys are invigorated, and once again engaged in Scouting!

Poorly worded on my part....it should have read "in HIS MIND, he is not being malicious or obstructive." Thank you for your thoughts!!

Thanks for the questions, Barry. No, the scouts don't particularly like him. My oldest, who LOVED scouting before he took over, just wants to finish his Eagle and be done with Scouting. I find this heartbreaking. With just a couple of exceptions, the older scouts have quit participating in camp outs/ camping weekends because according to this SM camping weekends should be about work...scrubbing tents, washing the troop trailer, etc.... maybe this is common practice? Both of my kids have complained that all the fun has been taken out of scout activities. The parents of the scouts have organized a couple of get togethers to talk about this SM....I never participated because I assumed they were being "whiny snowflakes" and I was trying my best to support this guy's endeavors. In the past, he has complained to me that he just doesn't understand why the older scouts don't want to participate. The sad thing is....the guy is not intentionally malicious or obstructive.....he genuinely feels "I'm doing the best I can to prepare these kids for facing the Board." He's truly baffled as to the lack of participation by the Scouts, and sincerely hurt that so many parents complain about his style. I fault whatever training he has received that has given him the mental wiggle room to feel his actions are just and warranted.

Here is his latest, sent yesterday..... "You mentioned that electric extension cords will be used to obtain power for the miter saw and electric drills. How far away are the electrical outlets? Will the sawing and drilling be done in a building or on open ground? If on open ground, what will you do if there is bad weather such as rain or snow? I believe you mentioned that the beneficiary will not be participating in the construction, and that your Mom or Dad will use the miter saw. Does the miter saw belong to the beneficiary? Is the miter saw in a fixed location in a building or is it on a mobile platform that you will need to move? Will the beneficiary be watching the construction and/or providing direction in any way? It's important that you nail down the answers to these questions for me so that I and the Board have a good understanding of how construction will take place" How far away are the electrical outlets? Who does the miter saw belong to? Is it on a mobile platform? I'm waiting for him to ask the make, model, and serial number....paint color, who manufactured the saw blades....

My son certainly is discouraged at this point. What is adding to the weight of the situation is that we are going through a similar process with his older brother, who has already completed his Service Project. The Beneficiary signed off on the project plan....and the SM took it, marked it up, demanded typos/wording be changed and so now we have to drive 2 hours round trip to get the beneficiary's signature again on a clean form. AND THE PLAN DOESN'T REQUIRE THE SM's APPROVAL!!!!!!!!! We've already been through 4 hours of meetings with the SM, on something that doesn't require his approval.... So, younger son is seeing all this....seeing the SM be defiant even though I presented him with the Guide to Advancement...while I don't think he'll give up on Eagle, he's quite disillusioned with the proceedings. Were it not for the close friends he has in the Troop, he'd be gone for sure.

Latest update... My son worked with the beneficiary to change the date so that my son will be the only scout working on his project on a given date. After 4 hours of meetings, the SM is still refusing to sign off on the proposal even though he admits it passes all the tests. He even stated that multiple times in the meeting. The reason he is refusing to sign off is he wants the proposal re-typed with his latest revisions and grammatical corrections ( use this word instead of this word, add a semi-colon here...). After my son spent 2 hours at the local Lowe's obtaining all the item numbers and prices so that he could provide a COMPLETE pricing sheet for the project, another sticking point with the SM was that he didn't ITEMIZE the estimate for providing lunch for the volunteers!!! "What kind of sandwiches? What kind of chips? What drinks will you have? You need to provide more detail for the Eagle Board." He even grilled the kid on what types of screws were being used in the project, citing that the previous SM had a preference for "screws with star heads, so you'd better use those or he's going to give you a hard time." What does the RETIRED SM''s screw preference HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING???? The project beneficiary has provided a design that THEY desire.... and this SM spent a good 20 minutes expressing his opinions on the design. So to date, we have had 2 meetings that have lasted nearly 4 hours in total....my son conferred with the beneficiary and got the dates of the project changed (the beneficiary is none too pleased mind you)...My son re-typed his proposal with all the corrections requested by the SM in the first meeting...my son has provided detail over and above what is required in the proposal form and the SM admits the project passes all the tests. And yet....my son is without signatures because....and this is a quote....."Grammar is a big part of the Eagle Scout Project." And - "this is the way our Troop does it!! We've always done it this way, and we can make our own policies and procedures when it comes to approval." And - "the beneficiary shouldn't be upset - they should be happy that I'm such a stickler and so thorough." The beneficiary should be happy about the SM's arguments over semantics pushing completion of their project back 4-6 weeks? Really? Is this normal? Am I out of bounds being upset with this guy? I even discussed section 9.0.2.7 of the Guide to Advancement with him...."The candidate shall not be required to submit more than is described there, or more than is necessary to establish that a project can meet the above tests....A thorough review should generate numerous suggestions, cautions, and perhaps concerns (see “What an Eagle Scout Candidate Should Expect,” 9.0.2.1). The Scout should be encouraged to write these down and take them seriously. When the reviewer is satisfied the five tests above can be met, then approval is granted. It is important to be as considerate of an Eagle Scout candidate’s time as we expect him to be of ours. He is probably just as busy. Every attempt should be made to complete the approval process in one meeting." At this point, his answer became "this is how I do it, and you have to have my signature - and I'm not signing."

I agree its essential....what I DON'T agree with now that I know the rules is that the SM requires the Scouts to have him APPROVE the project plan.... On the project plan cover sheet, it states very clearly that plan is not "approved or signed." My oldest son, who just finished his Eagle project, went through a lengthy meeting with the SM and the previous SM where they demanded to see the Project Plan and grilled him about it for nearly 2 hours. They circled typos, and made him re-write it before they would "allow" him to start working. While I understand they are trying to be helpful.... this is way outside the rules. These guys were debating the design of the project which was a 22 foot long bridge over a creek (my son had gotten help from his grandfather who is an architect and spent several hours with a family friend who is a civil engineer). They even got into debating what color he should paint it, what kind of screws and nails should be used....

There shouldn't have to be any "comebacks" necessary other than....show me in the Guide To Advancement where is says 2 Scouts are prohibited from working on different projects at the same facility on the same day. Anything else is a made-up requirement. This guy has also been making kids finish their project plan (not the proposal, the PLAN) before he "allows" them to start working on their project. Another made up requirement in direct opposition to current rules.

Short answer...yes However....the troop will still have an obstructionist SM making up his own rules. I appreciate the perspective your question provided.

I really appreciate this reply. Both my son's mother and I have communicated with the SM separately, explaining how all the criteria you listed will be met. Additionally, the 3 Scouts are from different troops and have never had communication of any kind. I can guarantee there is no planned sharing of responsibilities or volunteers. Each Scout is expected to lead their own project by the beneficiary. The representative of the Beneficiary that we are dealing with has 3 sons that are Eagle Scouts, has sat on Eagle boards....and thinks our SM is "out of his mind." We have made multiple attempts to explain things to the SM. He keeps replying with the same answer; "We don't allow Scouts to work on their Eagle project at the same time and place as other Scouts working on a project. Scouts have asked, and we don't allow it." My question to him - who is this "we" exactly? This is all very unfortunate.

Thanks for the reply. Over the past couple of years, there have been multiple instances of this SM using the phrase "our troop requires it" and I've always let it slide although I shouldn't have. I've requested that he show me in black and white where it is a BSA rule that 2 Scouts - from different troops mind you - cannot work on separate projects on the same day at the same facility. I'm going to let him hang himself, because I know he'll reply that "it's just a rule our troop made." I already have one email from him where he states "our Troop doesn't allow it" and I've just emailed him again asking him to either provide me the section and code of the BSA Guide to Advancement that states this rule explicitly or admit it's just something that he is making up. I really hate confrontation...but this guy is over the line.

Greetings and Happy New Year. My son is working on an Eagle Scout project for a very large beneficiary; it's the largest equine therapy center in the country. Currently there are 3 Scouts (including my son) who are doing their Eagle Service Project for this beneficiary. To make things easy on the facility, the beneficiary is asking the Scouts to work on their projects on the same dates. Mind you, they are all doing their OWN project, raising their own funds, leading their own crew of volunteers... The Scoutmaster has just informed me the "we" don't allow Scouts to work on their Eagle projects at the same time and place as another Scout working on a project....I have read the Guide to Advancement over and over, and have found no reference to this prohibition. Is this a black and white case of the Scoutmaster adding requirements? After all, it's the beneficiary that is asking for this arrangement. Thank you.

Greetings...I'm sure this has been discussed before but I want to gather informed opinions before taking action. I'm especially sensitive because the Scout Master is a friend and a good guy... he is new this year, following a SM that was fantastic and loved by all. Long story short...my son completed his requirements for Life Scout almost 3 months ago, and has asked 8 troop meetings in a row to get his Board of Review. Each time, he gets "next meeting" as an answer. He loves Scouts and is very driven to obtain Eagle Scout - but is becoming seriously disillusioned. 13 year old kids just don't understand it when they feel an adult in a power position is neglecting their responsibilities. Last night at the troop meeting, my son was told a new directive - "Call me to make an appointment." I don't want to be the guy that shows up with the highlighted Guide to Advancement, but this is getting ridiculous. Any words of wisdom? I don't want to create conflict with the Scoutmaster OR come off as a helicopter parent, but I feel at this point he is way out of line. Thank you for any and all help.