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Just curious, but to which position in the debate is this question posed?

At the end of the day the Unit leader must sign off on those put up for election to the OA. So if the Unit leader refuses to sign off he can effectively ban the election. However, I do not believe that doing so follows the ScoutnOath and Law. By refusing to sign off the Unit leader is in effect saying that none of his scouts meet the requirements. Since the only subjective requirements are if the Scout in question meets the the Scout spirit and adherence to Oath and Law requirements, he is in effect saying that he scouts do not (assuming they meet rank and camping requirements). If he truly believes that to be the case I would question his effectiveness as a Unit leader. If none of his scouts adhere to the Oath and Law and do not show Scout spirit, he isn't doing a very good job as a Unit leader. Hopefully leaving Helpful Tracks

True and agreed.

That's how it supposed to work. Congrats! Hopefully leaving Helpful Tracks

I if you are serving in an OA capacity hen wear it, if not I would say no. http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/01/27/ask-the-expert-when-should-scouts-and-scouters-wear-their-oa-sash/

His moral perspective differs from yours, so he is wrong?

Significant support with in BSA? There is a difference between support and acquiescence. I personally think the changes in '13 and '15 were logical changes, because the "sin" and "moral" issues were shaky ground (that is for another thread) and did not oppose them. But I am in fact aware of only a small percentage that outright supported the changes. I am aware of far more that opposed them.

And they are people who are tired of the argument that BSA "has to make room for all." It presumes that others perspectives are somehow invalid. Think about that statement for a minute. Is there no group that you would be opposed to BSA granting a charter or a commission? Some, perhaps many, there is the concern that goal for total inclusiveness means there is NO line in the sand for standards. I am certain there is some scenario that everyone will draw a line and say, no, that is not acceptable. Thus that line varies from individual to individual. But when a group continually hears their perspective (where they draw the line) is invalid, bigoted, mean spirited, wrong etc. is that inclusive? Is there room for them? That is particularly true when the organization they joined has a long standing history matching their value system, such as BSA. Changes in that value system can cause them to have concerns, and dismissing those concerns certainly does not feel inclusive to them. BSA did not suddenly create a "de facto policy. There policy has always been Boy Scout membership for youth has always been for boys only. The change has come with the flexible, and historically very recent, perception of of what defines a boy. That is not on BSA, their policy is unchanged, society, or at least a portion of it has changed that definition, and not everyone agrees with that change. To tell them their perception is invalid hardly feels inclusive. Hopefully leaving Helpful Tracks

First, the birth certificate no longer matters. That is the crux of the policy change. BSA will regard the youth's gender as the gender the parent marks on the application. Second, arguing the "practicalities of implementing the decisions" is not a red herring. There are potential and real legal impacts to every decision. It is prudent to discuss and understand those implications, regardless of where one's stance on the issue falls. "Be Prepared" is not just as motto, it is how we should conduct ourselves. Understanding how this and other decisions impact BSA, our councils, troops and CO's is important, not completely understood at this point and frankly the only way to come close to "Being Prepared." Hopefully leaving Helpful Tracks

Things seemed to have picked up in my area. Winter banquet was packed, many crossovers and elections going on. The calendar is packed with conclave, fellowships, ordeals and celebrations. There is talk of a big camping outing for Cubs put on by the lodge this year and tons of service projects. I think it is cyclic and varies by area though. Some years are just better than others. Hopefully leaving Helpful Tracks

“The Scoutmaster guides the boy in the spirit of an older brother.†- Baden-Powell To me to guide and direct are to very different things. Guides advise, mentor and act as role models for how things should be done. They are not the ones making the decisions.

Ha Ha - I forgot about having a job back then. But that was only something I did so I could do the things I wanted to do! That and my father made sure I worked to understand the value of an education. He made sure I worked by requiring me to pay for those High Adventure Trips and Jamboree. You are correct, finding out why Scouts leave the program is critical. Sometimes it is for reason we choose to believe, such as the 3 G's, as often as not, or perhaps more often, it's because the program isn't meeting their needs. Hopefully leaving Helpful Tracks

My pleasure!

Not to nit pick, but I will a little Both male and female produce the hormones estrogen and androgen (testosterone being an androgen). But they are in very different amounts for the sexes. So the body isn't producing the wrong hormone, perhaps, in some cases, production out of balance for their chromosomes. Second - medicine can and does have ways for correcting imbalances. In fact in most TG instances I am aware of, hormone treatment is used to create an imbalance. i.e. males transitioning get estrogen treatment and vice versa. "2. Punishment is for God to decide (i.e. Heaven vs. Hell), not mortal man." - Amen! "Is this a good decision for TG boys; absolutely." Is teaching character, citizenship, fitness, leadership and the principals of the Scout Oath and Law a good thing? No, it is a great thing, regardless of sex, gender identity, race, religion, national origin etc. But we are not just talking about teaching. We are talking about how we handle a sensitive subject. Is it a good idea to support TG from a psychological perspective? I am no expert so I can not say definitively. I tend to defer to experts in areas I am not as familiar with, and this is one of those. But when I research the topic there is a wide range of thoughts about how to handle TG. I am not talking about intersex, where there is a biological discrepancy, but rather TG. Some experts liken the conditions to other psychological conditions such as anorexia, anxiety, obsessive compulsive disorder in that the brain experiencing something different from reality. My understanding all of these things can be caused by various chemical, environment, social factors (and more). Others believe it is more helpful to embrace the gender you believe you are rather what your DNA says. So is reinforcing a belief that is counter to scientific evidence a good thing? My gut says no, but I am still studying this and trying to come to grips with it, so I will refrain from judgement for now. But it is a question worth asking.

There is nothing inherently wrong with Girl Scouts. But it is not for everyone, neither is Boy Scouts. But GS is structurally and programmatically different from Boy Scouts, that has pluses and minuses. My daughter looked at several GS Troops. Most did not fit what she was looking for. I would say our experience with GS has been that they are more like Explorer Post or focused Venturing Crews, they have a theme they stick with. I know that is not always true, but it has been what we have experienced. She looks at what my son does with Scouting, a more varied program from month to month (for example a six month stint in our program (snow sports one month, horsemanship the next, archery, wilderness survival, rifle & shotgun and water sports in successive months) and that is what she would like. It has also been difficult at times. She found a troop that was into horseback riding, which she was all about. But due to limited resources (enough horses) the troop wasn't taking in new Girl Scouts. IN at least 2 instances she found friends at school in GS and her friends were excited about doing some of the things she wanted to do, but the mothers who ran the troop were not. I volunteered to help in both cases and was politely told "no thank you." She eventually gave up on GS, but cannot wait for Venturing. We go camping and other activities together, but it is not the same as doing so with a large group of friends, like my son does with Boy Scouts. That is why I would love to see a BSA parallel for girls. As for what would happen to GS? I think it might have some impact, but again the two organizations are very different, I certainly do not think it would be the demise of GS USA

I hear the term regularly. Most often attached to the question how to prevent it, and/or with a tone of disappointment. As a UC my usual reply is a question. Why do you think it is happening. I am given all kinds of reasons, most having nothing to do with the program, which is usually very much the issue. I have been am ASM with my troop for about a year and a half. All of the Eagles we have had in that time have Eagled just as they turn 18. I am the advisor for our older patrol and several of them, if they get their Eagle, will do so this coming year close to aging out. The good thing is they are staying with the program. I would love to see the get their Eagle sooner and stay around as examples and mentors. But I tell them and their parents, it is not my goal to get them to Eagle. My goal is the Aims of Scouting and helping them achieve their goals. Getting Eagle should not be my goal or even their parents. It should be theirs if they choose. I discourage the "Wheels for Wings" concept and other such inducements. I do offer guidance, mentoring and any help I can provide for them to achieve their goals, and if Eagle is one of them great! They have my full support and any assistance I can provide. Those that "Eagle Out" long before their 18th birthday can be a sign of a program that does not meet their needs. But no always. I just barely got my Eagle despite 50 plus merit badges and getting Life at 15. But it was not because my troop program was not good. I had a good, active, troop. I managed to go to 2 high adventure bases and a Jamboree all after I achieved the rank of Life. But I was also active in multiple sports, academics, and other extracurricular activities, not to mention dating. And getting Eagle is not easy, my project took 5 months of solid work to complete. You mix in the 3 G's (Girls, Gas and Games) with other extracurricular programs and academics, available time becomes rare. Attending meetings is harder, weekend outings more so. The time needed for PoR also adds more time to Scouting and Eagle projects can be very difficult to fit in. All that said, it is a difficult task for boys to create a program that keeps all ages and ranks enthusiastic and engaged. As an adult leader I try to encourage our Scouts to work together to create programs that work for all of them, regardless of age or rank, and for older Scouts we may focus on more high adventure that suits their needs. That is no small task for them to do. While I do get disappointed in seeing Eagles withdraw, I also understand it. I do not begrudge their need and desire to other things besides Scouting, but I do try to help them make the most of their time while in Scouting, enjoy it and continue to learn from it.

I'll try to get this back on the rails of the OP. If I could just get Troop Committee to stop treating the Boy Scout program like Cub Scout program and start respecting the concept of boy-led troop rather than trying to it like a pack . And to be fair, it is only a small number of the Committee, but enough, the we need to routinely remind them they boys lead, SM/ASM's guide, Committee supports.

From a religious and moral consideration, I know many Scouts, Scouters and CO’s have already voiced those concerns, but it is clear that not everyone will agree on those issues. I respect that different faiths, even churches within faiths, have different views on such matters. I have never been one for telling someone they are wrong in their faith, nor am I concerned when they tell me I am wrong about mine. So for a moment, let’s put religious and moral concerns aside for the sake of argument on other points. There is still plenty to be concerned with about this edict from National. 1. First, it feels knee jerk, with little or no input from the millions of volunteers that do the hard work of implementing BSA programs. It feels as if they do not care or, that they believe they know what is best for the rest of us. Regardless of how you feel about previous policy changes, at least the rank and file where consulted. This bothers me greatly because it sets the precedent that we as volunteers have literally no say in the matters of the organization that we are the backbone of, not do the Scouts who are the heart and soul of the program. Creating at minimum, the appearance that our opinions and concerns are of no value to National. 2. A Scenario – Samantha is born a biological female. At some point Samantha determines she should really be Sam and transitions to a boy and joins Cub Scouts. Sam eventually crosses over to Boy Scouts. Sam is an exemplary Scout, earning the rank of First Class, several merit badges, and so on. A year into Boy Scouts, Sam concludes that he really is a female and transitions back to being Samantha. And before someone says that will not happen, respected, peer reviewed psychiatrist and psychologist put the number of youths that will transition back to their biological sex at between 70-95%. a. Does the Charter Organization (CO) remove Samantha from the program? If they do, they likely face law suits, or at minimum a great deal of negative public opinion. b. Do they allow Samantha to stay and continue on to earn HER Eagle Scout? If so, what about Jessica, who is biologically female and identifies with that gender? Is she allowed in (not under the current policy), does her family sue if her application is rejected? After all, they will already have females in the troop and BSA. c. Does BSA open Boy Scouts up to girls? I have long been a proponent of BSA starting a parallel organization for girls. I have daughter that would love that opportunity and who is counting the days until she is old enough for Venturing. I also have a son who thinks Venturing being coed is great, but as he put it, he likes Boy Scouts, because sometimes he likes having a place to hang out with the guys. d. What if the CO denied Sam’s application to begin with? BSA policy and legal support does not guarantee the CO will not face legal action. Even if BSA can and does foot the bill for legal cost, the CO which is strapped for resources (people and time), can ill afford to spend the time required to mount a defense. e. What about YPT. I have seen a good many reference that coed works for venturing, but two deep leadership requires that a female adult be present when Venturing is coed. Will that now be the case with Boy Scouts? If the troop cannot get enough adult female support, do we cancel outings because Sam cannot go? Do we tell Sam “sorry, you cannot come on this trip?†f. Do we allow/force Sam to tent with Brian? What if Brian is uncomfortable with that arrangement? Remember, these are 10-17 year old boys that we are struggling to teach the real meaning of the words of the oath and law. Transgender is a far more complicated issue for those young men to comprehend and for us as adults to explain with any degree of consistency. g. If we segregate Sam, then we as volunteers face accusations of discrimination. If we do not, we find ourselves in a legal quagmire. I can guarantee you if there is ever any issue, real or imagined, that someone feels they need to get an attorney involved in, this becomes problematic. A lawyer representing their client will not hesitate to point out that Sam is still biologically female, regardless of the fact they chose to be seen as a male, and the courts will almost certainly agree. I am highly concerned about how all of these things will be viewed by CO’s, not just from a religious and moral perspective, but from a legal and logistical perspective. At some point the burden BSA places on CO’s may well become to high, even if they agree, with policy. At some point they may conclude that the baggage associated with BSA is not worth it and that there are other options for their youth missions. I have always been a major supporter of our professionals. When I hear people complain, and many do, about professional Scouters, I am quick to jump to their defense for the huge amount of time and effort they put into the program and low amount the vast majority are paid. The way this policy change has been handled has made me lose any faith that remained in the professional in Dallas. Our local professional have been almost completely silent other than to say we are having conference calls with National, working on it and HOPE to release something soon. Clearly, National has left our local professional out of the loop and out on a limb that they were unprepared to deal with. These issues, and many more, have been on my mind since the announcement. I could easily continue with a list of problems that we may encounter as volunteers, but this is plenty to chew on for now. Hopefully leaving Helpful Tracks

Here are a few that i have seen personally Biohazard Flaming Flying Squirrels Toxic Bacon Radioactive Potatoes Flaming Coconuts Narwhals Moist Towelettes