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I hold District and Council positions and I am Committee’s at both levels. I cannot and don’t give big money to any level of BSA. I give to FoS when I can and I designate that my United Way contribution at work go to the Council, but that is about it other than paying for my children’s activities (most of which they pay for via fundraising). Sadly, the way United Way is setup with our local Council, no one can even verify that my money gets to the Council. In fact, Charter Organizations hold far more power than most of us on a Committee, they get a vote in Council business, via the CoR’s. As for bloated salaries, I know the starting salaries for DE’s in my area is under $38k, about $13k less than the average for bachelor degree.on top of that they are working 60-80 hours a week.

Back Pack, how do you see that being structured and operated? I’m curious because I am always interested in being more boy-led, but there are issues I am struggling to see how, what I think you are proposing, working.

I have often said, only partially in jest, that Boy Scouts would be GREAT if we could get the adults out of it. There is far too much adult intervention and "support" that does not fit with the Aims and Methods. I won't call it bad, because most are just trying to help, but they do not understand the difference between Cub and Boy Scouts, or the BSA mission, Aims & Methods, boy-led philosophy or some other pillar of Scouting. For those, we can try to help, train and guide just like we do Scouts. However, just like every other part of society, there are those that want to do things their way, because they know best. Moving them out of the way isn't really an option because we risk loosing their youth, who are often the ones that need Scouting the most. However, we can stand in the gap and be a constant reminder of how things work in BSA, give them jobs to keep them occupied and continue to try to educate them on how BSA works. Unfortunately, those people are often the cause of good Scouts and Scouters either leaving the program or moving on to other unit and weakening the unit they to which they belong.

Maybe it is more misinformed than out of line. The average Scout/Scouter have no idea of the inner workings of BSA, even at a District or Council level. I'll admit I am very deep into scouting and the intricacies often confuse me and force me to go look things up. But those old men and women, didn't get there by accident. And that starts at your local district and council. The people that make the committees and boards up have a very keen interest in Scouting, they make it go, giving and raising money, serving in various positions (at local levels often several positions, because they are the ones that step up when no one else does). They are nominated and elected to those positions by fellow Scouters (and Scouts) serving on committees, and without them the program would be much different, if it existed at all. And contrary to popular belief the professionals are not the ones deciding everything. In fact, I think the only professional that has a vote is the National Chief Executive and that is only on the Executive Committee. Local Executives do not vote on the Council Committee. Many, if not most, were scouts as youth, including the current executive (Eagle Scout) and Commissioner (cub, boy Scout and Explore). So, while they are old men, they got there through years of dedicated service to Scouting.

Actually, the National Chief (OA) is on the board, as well as 3-4 more youth. I think the National VOA President is one of those. Not sure how the others are selected.

I would urge caution on using that math. The BSA quote says “87% expressed INTEREST in a program LIKE†Boy Scouts. I have not seen what question they asked or how it was answered. Let alone the sample size or methods. I’m not questioning anyone’s integrity, but the question may have simply been would you be interested in a program that develops character, citizenship and fitness, with no reference to how the program is delivered. I think most people would answer yes. But that question doesn’t show what degree of interest or how such a program would be delivered. While I have no doubt the statement is accurate, without seeing the actual data and results, I am not sure what it really tells us.

I agree that attending is not interfering. And parents are welcome to come and observe, just not as “mom and dad helicopter “ parents. We are more than glad to have them as leaders, instructors, MB counselors, etc., but not to interfere with the youth leadership and patrol method, or to be their child’s personal valets.

Please see my other post for context. I am defining “Mom and dad†as helicopter parents and doing more than observing. We are YP compliant on this issue. If after reading my other post you would still want to have a discussion with the Council I would welcome that opportunity.

Actually, I proposed that in a previous thread. There were some folks that were less than enthusiastic about the idea, but most seemed to be supportive. I have already stared moving forward by reaching out to some people in different fields that could be of assistance in writing such a plan, proposal and training curriculum. I have also started work on identifying some possible champions for such a program.

Then that is where I would start. The Youth need to be leading, and that is not really an option. If they adults are not on board I would look for a troop that is boy led or at least making strides in that direction. My guess is that whatever the “something†that happens and end up derailing things, most likely has to do with adults stepping in where they shouldn’t. If you can get the troop moving toward boy led and using the patrol method that will take a good bit of the craziness caused by adults out of things. Helicopter parents get bored when they are relegated to being distant bystanders. And the youth will almost certainly put them their if given the room and support to make their own decisions. Easier said than done, but certainly worth the effort, not to mention the right way to do Scouting.

Floating in a tube is allowed, yes. Being towed behind a boat gets a little confusing. It is mentioned in two places with contradicting allowances. It seems to be okay under Tow Sports, but specifically ruled out in Unathorized and Reatricted Activities #15.

What does the PLC have to say about it?

My bad, that was misleading. Let me clear it up. We do not prevent parents from attending meetings or outings. They can come, in fact we often need transportation. By not allowing moms and dads I mean they are not there in that capacity. ( I made reference to this in an earlier post in this thread) They are more than welcome to observe from a distance with the rest of the adults and adult leaders. The youth lead, adults only step-in when asked by youth leaders or when it become an issue of safety or policy. The only adults that are allowed to step-in are registered leaders, unless a registered leader ask the parents for assistance or it is an emergency. We don’t allow mom and dad to “do things†for their youth or “visit†their camp sites, without good reason. (They stay in the adults campsite). In fact we don’t want them correcting or disciplining them either. If some type of corrective action is required we follow the boy led philosophy and move to registered leaders if needed. They youth are leading when it is Scouting time and we do not want that to be interfered with. We have had a couple of bumps, but after a talk with the parents they get it. They may need a few extra pills on their shirt sleeve before they remember it, but eventually they figure it out. We are most certainly YP compliant in our actions.

Did a quick trademark search and it does not look like GSUSA has any claim legally to Girl Guides. But that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be continuous.

Precisely why we do not allow “moms and dads†on outings or in meetings. The youth lead and run things, if an adult is needed it is a registered Scouter that steps in. If mom or dad wants to register as a leader, great! But that means they have an obligation to the youth of the Unit not just their child. When they have the uniform on they are adult leaders, not Mom and dad.

Absolutely. I think there are some that are using the phrase because they oppose the policy change and want to make the connection. I prefer a discussion based on merit rather than creating a bias by attempting to connect the two very different issues.

I have no problems saying it without rolling my eyes.

The phrase “separate but equal†has a heavily charged history and meaning wrapped around its use and instantly changes the discussion.

Sure: Paintball Laser Tag Water guns Water Tubing Four wheeling Personal Water Craft Towed Para Sailing Hot Air Balloon rides Dodgeball ( i still argue this it's different that using paint/laser guns) Introductory Karate Class with qualified instructors Certain pioneering projects Those are some of the items I can remember that have been suggested by our Scouts that they have done on other youth organizations, but did not meet G2SC requirements. Mind you I do not disagree that some of them should be excluded but some of the others I think are a bit over zealous.

Yes, but you know if they had decided to keep the announcement under wraps until they had a detailed program they thunder we hear would have been just as loud, only withe the subject of why were we not included in developing the program and similar arguments.. Besides even if no one on the committee were to leak the information (which I doubt), as soon as planning started and the circle of those in the know grew, it certainly would have come out. How does it go? The only way 3 people can keep a secret is if 2 of them are dead. I would have taken the next day in the office pool for how long it would take before the info was leaked. I also imagine I would have lost to someone that picked an earlier time.

The Aims/Mission is character, citizenship an fitness are the destination. The Methods and the program are the vehicles to get there. Most Scouters probably join because they believe in that mission. Most parents probably want their children in Scouting because of that mission. But that is not why Scout want to join or stay in Scouting. While there are many factors that contribute to the downward trajectory of BSA membership over that last few decades, I would argue program is the number one way to reverse that trajectory. And program may be the number one reason for that trajectory to begin with. Each year our Scouts bring a list of activities to the PLC and annual planning, because those items are what they youth WANT in their program. Each year there are some request we must alter considerably or out right reject due to the Guide to Safe Scouting. And I am not talking crazy request, these are activities they already do with their families, church groups and other organizations. It is disheartening to Scouts and Scouters alike. I look at my job as a Scouter as helping Scouts engage in experiences that change their life, get them excited about learning and trying new things, to help them appreciate and love the outdoors and all of the adventures it holds. Along that journey I am going to help them develop character, citizenship and fitness. I know that doing my job of fulfilling the mission of Scouting requires that I do the job getting the Scouts to have fun and embrace the program. The two things are inseparable. I absolutely embrace the need for safety and risk management, however, as Scouters, with boots on the ground dealing with Scout everyday, we have to bring the Scout handbook to life for them or it is nothing more than casual reading and a checklist. As ardent supporter of professionals, and often a defender, I do find it troubling when Scouters are told just follow the book, when we are simply looking for ways to build a better program.

One tier higher, Apache Attack Helo: They're reliving their childhood through their Scout/Athlete/Child, directing what THEY (not the youth) will be involved in and haranguing the leadership (youth and adult) to make sure they get what THEY want because THEY didn't get to do/accomplish it a as a youth. Their mantra "I just want what is best for Johnny" - ignoring what Johnny wants or what is really in his best interest. All of the above is in good fun, but setting boundaries for adults is as important, if not more, than it is for the youth. We don't allow Moms & Dads on outings. If a parent comes on an outing they are there as an adult leader and need to attend to the troops needs, not their own child's needs. The first couple of times it takes some nudging or holding them back. After that, they generally lose interest in coming or get on board with being a member of the unit. Same for when I coached football. No parents allowed on the field, once Johnny stepped on the field they listened to coaches only. After practice I would listen to the parents complaints/suggestions/critiques, nodding politely and saying thank you for you input. I didn't attempt to explain why Johnny was a tackle and not the QB. On occasion I would respond to the complaint that I was not listening with the response that listening is not the same as capitulating

It is sad you feel that way, because if there is no standard, then the rank of Eagle Scout means nothing. Not every Eagle may be of the same caliber, but I will chose to believe, based on reputation and my personal experience, that Eagle is still a standard of excellence that means something.

Having been involved in the hiring process for hundreds positions and seen thousands of applicants I would have to disagree. Unless I personally know the reference I have become accustomed to stock answers from HR folk. With the litigious society we live in, most HR groups will do little more than verify employment, along with dates and salary range. Some will verify if an applicant is eligible for rehire. I cannot tell you the last time I had someone (that I didn’t already know) give me real and solid opinions on a candidates strengths and weaknesses. In fact I have had some very good reference conversations that, in hindsight, I believe were the HR person was just doing some CYA. Every Eagle may not be the same, but at least you have some baseline to start from.