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SO many things wrong with this scenario. Nothing about it is boy led. The Adults are doing the deciding, the adults are doing the teaching, the adults are leading, (well, actually that is debatable) as opposed to guiding. Does your unit THINK/CLAIM they are boy led? If so, every time they do or say something like this, remind them that it is not boy led, remind them that Scouting is a safe place to fail, remind them that most of what the boys generally want is first to have fun, advancement is somewhere down the list.

Technically speaking, if a Council Camp is using something other than "Blue Cards," and most I have seen are, then those forms must be approved by National. If they are not, then they are worth less than the paper they are written on. That is why we transfer all Camp Paperwork to blue cards and have a counselor go over it with the Scout. If the MB counslor is satisfied, they will sign-off. If not a larger discussion is had.

On an tangent note I think there will be those that take he inclusion of females as an opportunity to remove the Native American element out of OA. I continue to hope that as an organization we can find a way to keep that part of the tradition going. As a person with a small degree of Native American ancestry I appreciate that element of the program, but I am well aware that those that do not share my feelings are small but vocal group.

I have never taken the "Boy scout Camping" to part of excluding Venturing Crew members. That is done by defining what units (Troops & Teams) are eligible. I have always taken that clause to prohibit camping that was done as a Cub Scout. Particularly since fulfilling requirements for each unit type (Troop & Crew) can be done in the other as long as they are a member of each unit type. Since camping nights for Camping MB can be fulfilled using Crew outings, I cannot see how or why they would not count toward OA. I have nothing official to reference, but my guess is that BSA4G Units will be eligible to elect OA members. However, the 15 nights of camping, as well as the requirements for rank, will need to be completed AFTER they join the BSA4G unit. Venturing, or any other activities, completed prior to joining a BSA4G unit would not count toward OA or any other rank advancement. I think that is closest to your 3rd option above, but I doubt there will be much left to interpretation by troops or lodges. At least I hope not.

The Application for Merit Badge (Blue Cards) is considered an official document for purposes of merit badges earned, i.e. it is the only form officially recognized (without an exception being granted). Having Blue Cards on hand is a good safety measure, in the case of conflicting documentation or worse if the BoR is disputed for any reason involving merit badges or advancement in general. It is always good to keep up with any documentation along your journey to Eagle as you never know when or why it may be needed.

Sounds about right to me.

Assuming they are camping out, yes.

Why did the PLC choose to have this specific CoH script? Perhaps they would be willing to approve him creating a new script and using that one. Have him write it up and see if the PLC will approve it.

I would add my 2 cents, but SSSCout just gave you a nickles worth. Great advice!

No reflection on you ItsBrian, but my heart sank at that question. No boring presentation needed. No hand out needed. To borrow from Nike - Just Do It! With few exceptions (Sustainability MB comes to mind) skills should be hands on whenever possible. Take the younger Scouts outside, grab a tent and show them how to pitch it, or how to change a tire on a bike, or read a map and compass, or what ever skill the MB is about. Scouting was never supposed to be about presentations, or handouts or classrooms. It was designed to be hands on and experiencing things. Granted people learn differently, so some will learn better by reading first. As NJCubScouter said, the handbook is a great place to start, so is the fieldbook. Some do better with EDGE method, some do better with just jumping in and figuring it out. Regardless, just get them with their hands in/on/around something they want to learn.

School work first! We will be here and always ready to bloviate.

It’s a judgement call on the maturity level. Only you know if they are likely to take it seriously enough to not clown around and put themselves in danger. Being in the wilderness is fun but understanding dangers that exist there. They should know how to read a map and compass and have them. They should have the 10 essentials and know why they are important. They should know basic first aid. They should know about and use the buddy system. They should know enough about likely emergency procedures (Johnny gets separated and lost, Jimmy has heat stroke or breaks a leg) Know, understand and use basic hiking procedures (file a plan with 2 adults, what’s the expected weather and potential for rapid change, where and how to find the Rangers/Police) They have shown they can work as a team. Bottom line is maturity and basic skills for being in the environment they are going into.

It depends on the activity. In general though, that they understand the patrol method and that they are capable of working as a team, but again activity specific. It is a different bar for getting together to play games or create a patrol flag than it would be for a 5 mike hike or 10 mike bike outing. For a hike, for example, do they know how to use compass and map, first aid, do they have the 10 essentials, do they know what to do if they get lost etc.

Back Pack - so you know, we are not ganging up on you. I think most here are very much youth-led in their actions. And believe it or not, we have all been in your sakes shoes and may have held similar beliefs of getting the old geezers out. In fact I wouldn’t mind seeing some changes in the organization myself. But what you proposed has consequences that some of us feel you are not seeing. You are clearly and active and passionate Scout that has joined a forum dominated by adults. I applaud you for that and coming here and arguing your opinions. That said you are not the average Scout by evidence you are here. Frankly the adults are not average Scouters, as most don’t know about these forums and many who do don’t come here, read or post. That doesn’t make us smarter or more correct but it does show we are interested in learning from others. My point is, in your model I’m not sure how many Scouts would be willing to take on that responsibility. It is difficult enough to get Scouts to be SPL and PLs and carry out their duties.

Much of what you read here is opinion, including mine, and not always tied to facts. The same is true in many sources online. I would urge you to read many sources and understand the perspective and bias from those sources. It takes longer to figure things out, but it will be a better formed opinion. You are correct that some opposed recent changes in policy, I would even assume most were against them. Some of those changes, regardless of if I agree with them, I can understand the reasoning for those changes. We all like to try to make decisions as black and white as possible, but I can assure you there were people who cast votes on those changes for very different reasons. Just look at this forum, people take the same side on a debate for very different reason. They see the same results with very different goals and outcomes. Others don’t trust that the policy will remain as it is currently. It may not. It may be that some already have plans to change, while others are steadfast in what it says now. If it changes is that a lie? Most likely not. As time and circumstances change so do policies. Making changes has a cost, as does not making a change. The increase in registration fees is, in part, dues to past decisions and the legal liability that came with them. That stinks but it is a fact of the society in which we live. I know this much, with all the changes I still believe in the aims and methods of Scouting, I still believe and teach the Oath and Law. Which is why I asked the question in another thread about modeling behavior. As you said, your opinions, at least in part, are informed by what you read here. As adult leaders we need to model behavior and we don’t always model the best, particularly when we label others as liars and hypocrits.

It is of course anecdotal, but I am seeing exactly that as well.

Just curious, do you have any examples?

People reflect the behaviors they see, particularly our youth. What we model is what we will see in others, particularly our youth. When we call out others failing to follow the Oath and Law are we doing so in a way that follows the Oath and Law? When we discuss a topic and have differing opinions are we doing so with the Oath and Law in mind?

This is precisely where young men should speak up, both locally and nationally. Back Pack - the concept being discussed is not coed troops. It is two different organizations, one for girls, one for boys. But that message is being muddled by others, some inadvertently and some intentionally. Others will tell you, regardless of what BSA plans or says, that coed is inevitable. I disagree. But at the local level Scouts need to speak out if they feel like you do, because some leaders will go coed, against policy, and young men will leave in some cases. That is exactly the wrong outcome. But if units know that the young men have opinions about not being coed then one would hope they listen. Which is precisely why I do not think the three option system (like what cubs is doing, boys, girls, coed) will work with troops. I fear too many CO's will go coed to save money and space, if allowed, and many young men will find themselves without a Scouting home. I think if CO's stick to the single gender model youth like yourself will be fine.

Now that I am back at my computer I can sit down and reply (beyond the age quips I have hurled at NJCubScouter - but I am not too far behind him in age). Back Pack - I asked my question because I wanted to know your answer rather than assuming what you might write. And while I agree with you that we should certainly have more youth input, what you suggest has some drawbacks and some oversights. This thing we call Scouting was organized by a man who was in his 50's at the time. It had organic beginnings as youth and adults formed groups around the concepts of a book he wrote in his 40's. But ultimately BP organized, incorporated, nurtured and led the Scouting movement, staying involved well into his 80's. Scouting was intended to be youth-led, but NEVER youth run. Adults were always ultimately responsible and accountable. Scouting is a safe place for youth to fail - running an organization like BSA would not be so forgiving. Some specific concerns I have with your proposal. One year terms would make it difficult to have any level of continuity. Any program decided one year could easily be scuttled the next because there would be no one with "in-frame" context of the previous years debates, decisions and votes. Multi year terms would lead to younger and younger Scouts being elected, so "older youth" would be locked out. Youth would not be able to legally carry-on much of the business that BSA "corporation" needs to conduct. Having acted as an advisor for patrols, crews and OA, I can promise you that much advice given is not heeded, very often to the detriment of the Scout (see Safe place to fail above) which works fine for units, but not for the business world. Having been a youth once, I know that experience seems overrated, but standing here today I know differently. Experience is a great teacher, one of the very important lessons of Scouting. All of that said I applaud your desire to be more youth led and I would encourage you to push forward with the idea. Some of your ideas I agree with wholeheartedly. Perhaps you could help the youth organize an national youth board for BSA, so the youth voice can be heard more often and more clearly. You would certainly get resistance, but you would also learn a great deal, as would the youth that join you. You could also teach us old codgers are great deal as well. You would likely need to recruit adult champions to get National's attention, but If you succeeded then National would have more insight from their own members. I would certainly support that.

Look at the bright side, you haven’t made it to the crypt keeper stage yet!

You will have crossed over to ancient. ;-)

I see a link between the two. Over the last 2-3 years I have heard/been in many conversations about adding girls to the program. Most of those conversations did not include professionals, a few more included higher level local volunteers. Over the last year more and more of those conversations included the pros and higher level volunteers. I would estimate that 75-80% of those conversations included th concept that if we open the program to girls then we will get more boys because the family has one program that serves them both. Part of that argument was always about declining numbers and why. But the answer was always we grow if the family can bring all of their siblings. We can debate if that will in fact prove true. But I wouldn’t call it a lie. In fact there are numerous arguments for and against adding girls to the program, and most people approach the current policy with one, maybe two, of those positions as their primary argument.

Corn Maze with Crew Friday night, took my son and soon to be old enough daughter. Had a great time. Taught ILSC Saturday to the new Crew. We had fun and the youth appeared ready to take over training for next one in 6 months. Crew did pumpkin carving, with a fire and s’mores last night for a change of pace and some fun Troop wrapped up popcorn sales last night and did well I head back to camp tomorrow to get ready for week 2 of Wood Badge, can’t wait to see all the Patrol projects

I guess it is good to live in small(ish) town America. Starting salary here for teachers with bachelor degree is about the same as DE (withing $600) and just under your max. Granted that is still about $10K less than the average of all starting salary with BS/BA, but not nearly as poorly as they pay in Chicago apparently. It is also good to see that our Council functions according to BSA bylaws and that CoR's are voting members of our committee. Not sure my positions offer me any additional prestige, but maybe the occasional thank you for stepping up to fill a job that needs to be done. I can live with that. I am more thankful than ever that my wife talked me out of moving to Chicago when we married. I don't miss the colder winters either.